• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,058
Might have needed the points moved few meters to the north, and the odd electrification mast moved, but doesn't appear to be any structures in the way of shortlist 20-25m platform extensions when you look at it on aerial photo


or platform end photo


Extending the platforms means moving all the signals and points and OLE. Essentially complete remodelling. Multi millions (at least £30m, probably twice that). Also likely to come with a linespeed reduction.

Can the platforms at all other stations served by these trains cope with 260m trains?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Discuss223

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2024
Messages
375
Location
Rowsley
Voyagers are great trains and have improved reliability for Grand Central immensely. Most of the dislike comes from people who were upset when they replaced HSTs and Class 87 + MK3 stock.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,307
Location
Macclesfield
Voyagers are great trains and have improved reliability for Grand Central immensely. Most of the dislike comes from people who were upset when they replaced HSTs and Class 87 + MK3 stock.
Reading the frequent threads that arise on here on the topic, I'd say that most of the criticism derives from years of overcrowding arising from short train lengths and an inefficient internal layout.

Voyagers didn't replace class 87s and mark 3s - They were a West Coast fleet replaced by Pendolinos.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,043
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Reading the frequent threads that arise on here on the topic, I'd say that most of the criticism derives from years of overcrowding arising from short train lengths and an inefficient internal layout.

Agreed. The train itself is OK (and indeed the 222s, which are near enough the same thing with a slightly different body*, don't get the same hate). The problem is the interior fit-out, which has very little going for it at all - poor luggage space (and poorly shaped overheads so they only take small bags), poor legroom (which sadly the XC refurb will continue due to their poor choice of replacement seats, having picked the thick backed FISA LEAN instead of one of the many thin backed designs), poor window alignment, unreliable reservation displays etc. I don't think the vibration (which isn't *that* bad) bothers most people, and the windows are quite big. Also the reduced number of toilets from before, and the smell from them due to, I believe, the vent being too close to the aircon intake and due to the vestibules not being ventilated.

Even on an actual Voyager I suspect if you surveyed coach A (almost all airline, high density) and coach D (almost all tables, low density, quite similar to the Avanti 80x layout) you would get vastly different results - and indeed it wouldn't surprise me if this was the reason why the Avanti 80x have a Standard layout rather like the Voyager Coach D.

* The nose being different is the obvious one, but the windows are actually slightly smaller too - the bottom sill is higher on the 222. Not sure why this latter change was made.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,040
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Reading the frequent threads that arise on here on the topic, I'd say that most of the criticism derives from years of overcrowding arising from short train lengths and an inefficient internal layout.
Voyagers didn't replace class 87s and mark 3s - They were a West Coast fleet replaced by Pendolinos.
Voyagers replaced HSTs on Euston-Holyhead services (and occasional 87/47-hauled Mk3 sets).
They also replaced HSTs and loco-hauled Mk2 sets on Birmingham-Preston-Scotland services (mostly originating from Reading/Bristol or beyond).
Virgin WC took over Birmingham-Preston-Scotland from XC, and these routes used the Voyager sets that transferred to Avanti.
More recently, Pendolinos took over most Scotland services from Voyagers, but there were some left on those services, and to Blackpool and Shrewsbury, until this year.
 
Last edited:

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,307
Location
Macclesfield
Voyagers replaced HSTs on Euston-Holyhead services (and occasional 87/47-hauled M3
While there were four Voyagers ordered for the West Coast Euston - Holyhead services, I consider these a direct replacement for the three HST sets allocated to that route. Occasional dragged Pendolinos became a replacement for the occasional hauled mark 3 sets, though admittedly that was an eleventh hour change of plan for the North Wales coast services.
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,642
Are there noticeably more booked doubles out on XC today than last week?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,846
Are there noticeably more booked doubles out on XC today than last week?
I believe, (from the XC Voyager refurb thread where it has been discussed at length), there‘s no change expected until May 2025. Although I’d not bet on that date being met either. No overhaul work starts until Jan 2025.
 

Russel

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2022
Messages
2,355
Location
Whittington
I dont hate them but I think they have issues. I've said on this forum before I think there should be a limit to the amount of time you should have to cope with the sound and vibration of an underfloor engine. ...... basically Intercity services should be LHCS.

I've never found vibration and sound to be an issue on the Voyagers, because, it isn't.

Only enthusiasts want LHCS to make a return.
 

Danfilm007

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2015
Messages
325
I've never found vibration and sound to be an issue on the Voyagers, because, it isn't.

Only enthusiasts want LHCS to make a return.

I do find them a little rattly but I suspect it is more the fixings at this age, they are still leagues above for NVH compared to a Sprinter. Happily done some long journeys on them recently
 

Discuss223

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2024
Messages
375
Location
Rowsley
There is a significant amount of sound proofing that prevents noise from the engines and the outside from infiltrating the inside of the train. I forget the engines are there when I ride Voyagers, as they are very quiet inside. It's worlds apart from riding a 150 with windows open in the summer.
 

-Colly405-

Member
Joined
25 May 2018
Messages
737
Location
Stoke Gifford
The vast majority of my mileage is on 220/221 - Bristol to Leeds, Manchester or Edinburgh. Compared to 80 minutes on an 800 into Paddington, the 220/221 are IMHO far superior, their main downfall being capacity.
Also, on a combination of TOC and Network Rail performance, my journeys "up north" are far more reiable than those up to London...
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
7,812
I've never found vibration and sound to be an issue on the Voyagers, because, it isn't.

Only enthusiasts want LHCS to make a return.
No - we want a return to the seating capacity of LHCS services.
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
2,212
Location
Leeds
Are there noticeably more booked doubles out on XC today than last week?
The 0811 from Leeds southbound was a double today, it's been 4 or 5 for a month or so. Hoping it still is a double on Wednesday when I'm next in the office ;)
 

Tetragon213

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2024
Messages
237
Location
West Midlands
But... but... I thought everyone hates Voyagers!
I think they were more hated in the past when they had that weird septic tank flaw.

They also get a bad rap due to XC treating passengers like cattle and stuffing a 4-coach unit to standing only in the middle of the Friday off-peak.
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
3,299
The 0811 from Leeds southbound was a double today, it's been 4 or 5 for a month or so. Hoping it still is a double on Wednesday when I'm next in the office ;)
Return journey (1425 ex Plymouth) now splits a Newcastle so appears to be planned double set going forwards.
 

Russel

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2022
Messages
2,355
Location
Whittington
They also get a bad rap due to XC treating passengers like cattle and stuffing a 4-coach unit to standing only in the middle of the Friday off-peak.

This doesn't make them a bad train though, they were just ordered too short and it's the DFT treating XC passengers like cattle by removing the HST's and not letting XC take all of the Avanti 221's.
 

GoneSouth

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
1,040
No - we want a return to the seating capacity of LHCS services.
As I remember it, the seating capacity was higher on individual trains pre Voyager, however there were only half the number of trains running so not a lot of difference there really. What has changed is a surge in passenger numbers, which capacity has definitely not matched.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,365
Frankly I don't think you will ever see anything more than five vehicles in any new train that doesn;t go to / from or through London.
Pairs of Class 185s on TPE on various routes and pairs of Class 385s between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh, none of which go to London.

I am however sure that whatever brand XC migrates to in GBR eill have Bimode trains eventually.
Unless electrification gets there first but I don't see the will for that unfortunately.
 

Tetragon213

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2024
Messages
237
Location
West Midlands
Pairs of Class 185s on TPE on various routes and pairs of Class 385s between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh, none of which go to London.
I think XC runs a few 8 or 9 coach Voyager diagrams at certain times of the day.

Moderator note:

Some posts moved to:


 
Last edited by a moderator:

vuzzeho

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2022
Messages
267
Location
London

Avanti posted a nice little poem for the 221s. Nice of them to include Virgin-era photos, and it's nice they did this! It's thoughtful. They'll be missed - maybe not by all, but by many.
 

Russel

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2022
Messages
2,355
Location
Whittington

Avanti posted a nice little poem for the 221s. Nice of them to include Virgin-era photos, and it's nice they did this! It's thoughtful. They'll be missed - maybe not by all, but by many.

That's actually really good, I like it.

Well done, Avanti! That's not something I every thought I'd say!
 

chazi898

Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
30
Location
Can't remember - brain numb
Look, I'm no qualified mathematician, but let me do some simple calculations:
A Mk2 Standard Class has 64 seats if I'm not mistaken, a Mk2 First Class has 42 seats if I'm not mistaken.
For reference wiki says a 5 car voyager has 246 seats (class 221), or a 4 car has 200 seats (class 220).
Let's be generous and say each loco hauled set had only 7 coaches, which before voyagers, most did; so (5x64)+(1x42) not counting any RFBs or Kitchen cars = 362 seats.
It is noted you get about 2 XC services per hour north of Birmingham/Derby; I'm not counting Nottinghams since those were apparently 158s at one time, and still sometimes 2 car 170s.
With 362 seats, you get less than 2 voyagers (even 2x4car), but with the added advantage you can walk through the entire train. Keep in mind some loco hauled sets had 2 first, or 6 standard class in a 7 rake, so more than 362 seats.
Now let's take D6975's example from post #104 of 13 coaches, presumably from the 1970s and 1980s.
From looking at lots of pictures, they seem to have a BG, Kitchen car and a BFK or BSK, so you're still left with about 10 full coaches. For example that's 7 standard + 3 first, giving you 574 seats, plus the BFK, Kitchen and BG. Even with just 10 coaches, for eg. BG+(5x64)+Kitchen+(2x42)+BFK, you get 404 just in the full seated coaches.
Now it may have been a while ago, but pretty much, we did used to have more seats on cross country trains, and you could walk through the lot, it's painfully obvious.
Yes I know we get double voyagers from time to time, but let's be honest how many times have you seen a 4 car voyager turn up...
And yes I know they're decent trains, just too short.
With rising passenger numbers in 40 years we've had... less seats and now 7 more voyagers, that you still can't walk through if it's double? I just don't see how anyone can argue our current situation is better.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
5,417
Yes I had many a beautiful morning journey back to London after seeing my parents in Anglesey when they retired there from Liverpool.

Coach D on the morning service sitting sea side was a delight.

Funny how a train can feel quite different depending on the context. The sight of a Cross Country version turning up fills me with dread - I am not sure I have ever had anything better than a tolerable journey with that TOC, other than on their HST’s.
The class 222 are essentially the same kit but I find them far more pleasant to travel on.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,192
The class 222 are essentially the same kit but I find them far more pleasant to travel on.
A lot of thought went into specifying the class 222s, with the benefit of experience from the the 220/1 having been in traffic.

Midland Mainline were very much a service led TOC so that's what you got, but then being a tiny operation comparatively they could afford to be, they still got some stuff wrong like the original 4 car sets with an overwhelming amount of first class seating.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
5,417
There is a significant amount of sound proofing that prevents noise from the engines and the outside from infiltrating the inside of the train. I forget the engines are there when I ride Voyagers, as they are very quiet inside. It's worlds apart from riding a 150 with windows open in the summer.
It is surprising how noisy they are inside but we get used to it. Recently I travelled on a class 222. The engine was shut down on my coach. It glided along almost silently. Quite a difference.
 

Discuss223

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2024
Messages
375
Location
Rowsley
A lot of thought went into specifying the class 222s, with the benefit of experience from the the 220/1 having been in traffic.

Midland Mainline were very much a service led TOC so that's what you got, but then being a tiny operation comparatively they could afford to be, they still got some stuff wrong like the original 4 car sets with an overwhelming amount of first class seating.
More equipment was placed underneath the cabin compared to Class 220/1s, to give more interior space on the Meridians. Midland Mainline staff were involved in the consultation process, which resulted in things such as foot buttons for interior doors being included in the design and cup holders in the buffets. The cab speedometer was also tilted to an angle that wouldn't reflect sunlight in to the driver's face, as this was a problem noted from operations of Class 220/221.

Class 220s won a Golden Spanner award for reliability in November. The entire 22X fleet are renowned for their reliability and powerful performance.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,816
The cab speedometer was also tilted to an angle that wouldn't reflect sunlight in to the driver's face, as this was a problem noted from operations of Class 220/221.
Was this later modified? I've never found this problem
 

Top