Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Bigfoot]

A shorter training 701 course with Driver Open Guard Close DOGC is being introduced, although SWR still desire to run with Driver Open Driver Close DODC in the future. The amended courses start in a couple of weeks, with DOGC as the method of operation the week after.

Read into this/that what you will.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Class 701 Diagrams in the new timetable as of tomorrow. Weekend diagrams obviously very much subject to change with engineering work.

Saturday
5U07 0540 Strawberry Hill Depot to Twickenham
2U07 0627 Twickenham to Windsor & Eton Riverside
........................

5H03 0549 Strawberry Hill Depot to Shepperton
2H12 0641 Shepperton to London Waterloo
......................

Three diagrams operating today, even though it's a Saturday
043 on the Windsor and 036 on the Shepp.
039 running another Windsor diagram, starting with 2U05, 0609 Staines - Windsor

 

[Goldfish62]

A shorter training 701 course with Driver Open Guard Close DOGC is being introduced, although SWR still desire to run with Driver Open Driver Close DODC in the future. The amended courses start in a couple of weeks, with DOGC as the method of operation the week after.

As predicted in post #11208.

 

[swr444]

A shorter training 701 course with Driver Open Guard Close DOGC is being introduced, although SWR still desire to run with Driver Open Driver Close DODC in the future. The amended courses start in a couple of weeks, with DOGC as the method of operation the week after.

Read into this/that what you will.

Why the courses have to wait a few weeks before starting is hilarious, it’s the same course but no DCO training. The railway really can’t do anything quickly

 

[Goldfish62]

Why the courses have to wait a few weeks before starting is hilarious, it’s the same course but no DCO training. The railway really can’t do anything quickly

Seemingly especially so when it involves SWR...

 

[Mainsideman]

A shorter training 701 course with Driver Open Guard Close DOGC is being introduced, although SWR still desire to run with Driver Open Driver Close DODC in the future. The amended courses start in a couple of weeks, with DOGC as the method of operation the week after.

Read into this/that what you will.

Can not see it going back to driver close now. If its such a problem that drivers can not close currently then nothing will change without heavy investment in infrastructure and whos going to want to pay for that.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Why the courses have to wait a few weeks before starting is hilarious, it’s the same course but no DCO training. The railway really can’t do anything quickly

Must be stamped 18 times by the DfT and then put under forensic review

 

[DMckduck]

Can not see it going back to driver close now. If its such a problem that drivers can not close currently then nothing will change without heavy investment in infrastructure and whos going to want to pay for that.

And unless they plan on ramping up the timetable to pre covid levels, is there even a justification the supposed time saved at each station from DCO?

Considering a second safety critical person will still be onboard the train. For now...

 

[NSEWonderer]

And unless they plan on ramping up the timetable to pre covid levels, is there even a justification the supposed time saved at each station from DCO?

Considering a second safety critical person will still be onboard the train. For now...

Tbh does driver closing really speed up the process vs Guard closing? Driver opening and Guard close seems just as quick(whilst having an extra safety boost of the driver being able to observe the operation via the cameras). Agreed that isn't what was originally wanted but I'd argue its just as fast.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Tbh does driver closing really speed up the process vs Guard closing? Driver opening and Guard close seems just as quick(whilst having an extra safety boost of the driver being able to observe the operation via the cameras). Agreed that isn't what was originally wanted but I'd argue its just as fast.

As long as platform despatchers not involved there might not be a lot in it.

 

[Fincra5]

Tbh does driver closing really speed up the process vs Guard closing? Driver opening and Guard close seems just as quick(whilst having an extra safety boost of the driver being able to observe the operation via the cameras). Agreed that isn't what was originally wanted but I'd argue its just as fast.

Having worked on both. I always preferred working with a guard tbh but yes, I've found DOO quicker (at unstaffed stations).

Driver opening is certainly quicker, as there's no local release first.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Three diagrams operating today, even though it's a Saturday
043 on the Windsor and 036 on the Shepp.
039 running another Windsor diagram, starting with 2U05, 0609 Staines - Windsor

And again today - two Windsor (017,036), one Shepp/roundabout (037)

EDIT - corrected

 

[43066]

Tbh does driver closing really speed up the process vs Guard closing? Driver opening and Guard close seems just as quick(whilst having an extra safety boost of the driver being able to observe the operation via the cameras). Agreed that isn't what was originally wanted but I'd argue its just as fast.

Having worked both guarded and DOO, I’d say there’s very little in it. Largely because modern driving policies require drivers to take a slow methodical approach to door release and closure/dispatch.

 

[Goldfish62]

Having worked both guarded and DOO, I’d say there’s very little in it. Largely because modern driving policies require drivers to take a slow methodical approach to door release and closure/dispatch.

I suppose the time difference is between, on one side the guard checking all doors are closed, closing the local door, giving the start signal and the driver moving off, and on the other side the driver closing the doors, checking they're closed and moving off.

4-5 seconds? It could mount up given the amount of stops on some services, and it's probably slower than the current operation on 455s. However the 701s demonstrably have better performance to mitigate against the difference, plus driver release tends to be quicker, so overall probably no difference.

In any case, as others have pointed out, it's likely that there's no intention to increase service levels in the foreseeable future beyond the current "Covid+" levels (SWR’s claim that a 10 car 701 carries over 50% more passengers than an 8 car 455 appears to signal the intent to do nothing in this respect). Shorter station dwell times will therefore not be required.

 

[43066]

I suppose the time difference is between, on one side the guard checking all doors are closed, closing the local door, giving the start signal and the driver moving off, and on the other side the driver closing the doors, checking they're closed and moving off.

Certainly where I drove DOO, after getting interlock, you had to focus on each monitor to ensure nobody was trapped, and it was this part of the process that could take longer than a guard simply looking along the length of the train and closing a local door.

In regards to release, some of our stock has drop lights, and guards are permitted to release the doors as soon as they are satisfied the train is platformed which can be as soon as the wheels stop turning. This is generally quicker than I was able to release doors following the DOO policy and scrutinising the monitors to ensure the train was platformed. I don’t know whether this is permitted at SWR (admittedly the downside to this is that the guard has to be in a cab to do it, which is fine when you’ve got 10-15 mins between stops, but less than ideal on SWR metro).

Overall very little in it and I suspect the performance benefit, if there is one at all, is largely theoretical.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

following the DOO policy and scrutinising the monitors to ensure the train was platformed

On the times I've been on the 701 over the past few months, the doors open almost instantly

 

[JonathanH]

And again today - two Windsor (017,039), one Shepp/roundabout (038)

037 on Shepperton. 038 would be a bit more of a story.

 

[Goldfish62]

Ye

On the times I've been on the 701 over the past few months, the doors open almost instantly

Yes, same as pretty much every train I travel on where the driver releases the doors, which is after all the most common method of door release on the national network.

Quick guards can also release the doors almost instantly, but there's a lack of consistency. I was on a 450 towards Reading a couple of weeks ago where it took a clear 7 seconds at each stop for the guard to release the doors. Needless to say the train ran late.

 

[43066]

On the times I've been on the 701 over the past few months, the doors open almost instantly

Where I used to be, if your train was downloaded and there was less than three seconds between stopping and doors being released, you’d be pulled into the office.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where I used to be, if your train was downloaded and there was less than three seconds between stopping and doors being released, you’d be pulled into the office.

That would be every almost driver on the trains I've used on GWR, London Overground and the Elizabeth line (western section) I've used recently then. Big queue for the office!

But anyway, it's to be Driver open/Guard close on the 701s for the foreseeable future and that's all we really need to know. Hopefully the shortened courses result in the trains being introduced more quickly, but given this is SWR the result will probably be a slower introduction...

 

[43066]

That would be every almost driver on the trains I've used on GWR, London Overground and the Elizabeth line (western section) I've used recently then. Big queue for the office!

It will no doubt vary by operator (mine wasn’t any of the above) - but they were pretty strict about it. I use their services regularly and occasionally wince when the doors open immediately upon stopping!

 

[cactustwirly]

That would be every almost driver on the trains I've used on GWR, London Overground and the Elizabeth line (western section) I've used recently then. Big queue for the office!

But anyway, it's to be Driver open/Guard close on the 701s for the foreseeable future and that's all we really need to know. Hopefully the shortened courses result in the trains being introduced more quickly, but given this is SWR the result will probably be a slower introduction...

On the GN inners, some of the station dwell times are 20 seconds in total.

 

[norbitonflyer]

037 on Shepperton. 038 would be a bit more of a story.

Mea culpa - I knew they were two consecutive numbers - its actually 036 and 037

 

[Goldfish62]

It will no doubt vary by operator (mine wasn’t any of the above) - but they were pretty strict about it. I use their services regularly and occasionally wince when the doors open immediately upon stopping!

Then there's the Bakerloo, where the doors regularly open before the train has stopped moving.

 

[43066]

Then there's the Bakerloo, where the doors regularly open before the train has stopped moving.

Yep, although I’ve experienced that (or at least doors releasing while still moving) on networkers too .

LU take a different approach to these matters - fixed length formations, fixed stopping points and correct side door enable help with that, of course.

Weren’t the 701s also meant to brake themselves down to a stop and open the doors automatically at some locations - I seem to remember that was also kicked into the long grass, based on discussions somewhere upthread.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Weren’t the 701s also meant to brake themselves down to a stop and open the doors automatically at some locations - I seem to remember that was kicked into the long grass, based on discussions somewhere upthread.

Yes although unlikely to be used in passenger service after COVID. Beacons have been placed between Putney and Richmond

 

[43066]

Yes although unlikely to be used in passenger service after COVID. Beacons have been placed between Putney and Richmond

Overpromising, underdelivering. That’s the “Digital Railway” for you.

 

[InOban]

Surely the advantage of DO/DC is to the passengers and the train operator? It means that the on-board staff (whatever job title they have been given) isn't taken away from what, in 2025, are their core tasks - revenue protection and all forms of passenger assistance - to get to a the control panel.

 

[TEW]

Except they are required to do that on SWR anyway even when drivers are closing the doors.

 

[Goldfish62]

A couple of snippets from the latest issue of Modern Railways:

The reliability stats for the 701s are at last being published and for the first period, Period 6 24-25 (late August into Sept) comes in at 3,497 Mp701D. This is entirely consistent with other new trains initially. Mp701D is basically miles per technical failure that causes a delay to a service as recorded by the RDG (Rail Delivery Group).The Class 730/0s entered at 3,700 Mp701D in Period 9 23-24.

It's also reported that as of late November Alstom had made 10 units available to SWR for passenger service. The number has undoubtedly grown since then and I assume service entry is simply being delayed by the glacial pace of training, as has been discussed at length on this thread.