HELP! Can anyone advise me on how best to contest a penalty fare issued by Govia Thameslink

[Joel Hills]

Hi all,

I was issued with a penalty fare on the Gatwick Express just before christmas. Can anyone advise my how best to frame an appeal, please?

My colleague and I were travelling from London to Brighton for work We both separately purchased off-peak return tickets on the Trainline.com and boarded the 17.59 Gatwick Express from London Victoria. We walked the length of the train in the hope of finding seats with a table but the train was very crowded. We decided to relocate to First Class which was largely empty and to purchase an upgrade - something we have done many times before when we have travelled on busy trains on other parts of the network.

On this occasion, when we requested an upgrade from a revenue inspector on the train, we were told the option was not available (which is not correct) and that we would have to pay a penalty fare. I was genuinely not seeking to avoid paying a first-class fare, nor did I have a any incentive to do so as I was travelling with work and the cost of the journey was covered by my employer.

I tried to explain to the inspector the reason we had decided to relocate and to reassure him that we had acted in good faith but he cut me off and said he couldn’t issue upgrades and that I would have to pay penalty fare instead.

I had no idea that we were acting in a way that breached ticket purchasing rules. Neither my colleague nor I saw any warning notices either at the station or on the train.

It would appear for the guidelines that intent doesn’t matter but it’s relavent in this case in as far as surely it was obvious that I made an innocent mistake. The revenue inspector could have referred me to the onboard ticket inspector instead of penalising me. I feel strongly that I was treated in unfair and unnecessarily heavy-handed way. How should I make my case? Do you think I have one!?

All help/advice gratefully received.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless a technicality of eg signage applies, you don't have a case - on these trains upgrading on board isn't allowed, unfortunately.

 

[AlterEgo]

How should I make my case? Do you think I have one!?

Basically, no, you don't have a case for unfair treatment. The penalty fare was issued in the correct circumstances here.

The only way you may contest the penalty fare is on technical grounds, that is, if the penalty fare was made out incorrectly by the inspector in some way. Could you please upload the penalty fare notice, with all your personal details removed? We can then see if there are technical grounds for appeal.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I have occasionally travelled in First Class on Gatwick Express, and have the upgrades to prove it. The trick, on Gatwick Express anyway, is to ask the On Board Supervisor before you take a seat. There are notices to say you must have a First Class ticket.
As an aside, Revenue Protection Officers seem to be making semi regular checks these days.

 

[Haywain]

I was issued with a penalty fare on the Gatwick Express just before christmas. Can anyone advise my how best to frame an appeal, please?

If it was before Christmas you are most likely out of time for lodging an appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

If it was before Christmas you are most likely out of time for lodging an appeal.

And would the Penalty Fare prompt payment discount of 50% also have expired?

 

[Haywain]

And would the Penalty Fare prompt payment discount of 50% also have expired?

That would also be the case.

 

[island]

I was issued with a penalty fare on the Gatwick Express just before christmas. Can anyone advise my how best to frame an appeal, please?

An appeal has to be lodged within 21 days of receiving the Penalty Fare. You are too late.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Here is a photo of the notice in First Class.

 

[Joel Hills]

Here is a copy of the penalty notice. I lodged a first appeal, based on the information I gave you, which was unsuccessful. I wondered if there were other grounds I could highlight in a re-appeal but it would appear not. I feel cross partly because it seems extremely unfair and partly because the Revenue Protection Office was so rude. When he told me he had no means of issuing the upgrade I thought we would have to vacate the first class seats, I genuinely didn‘t expect to be penalised.

Basically, no, you don't have a case for unfair treatment. The penalty fare was issued in the correct circumstances here.

The only way you may contest the penalty fare is on technical grounds, that is, if the penalty fare was made out incorrectly by the inspector in some way. Could you please upload the penalty fare notice, with all your personal details removed? We can then see if there are technical grounds for appeal.

Done (see previous post)

 

[Egg Centric]

Here is a copy of the penalty notice. I lodged a first appeal, based on the information I gave you, which was unsuccessful. I wondered if there were other grounds I could highlight in a re-appeal but it would appear not. I feel cross partly because it seems extremely unfair and partly because the Revenue Protection Office was so rude. When he told me he had no means of issuing the upgrade I thought we would have to vacate the first class seats, I genuinely didn‘t expect to be penalised.


Done (see previous post)

You were penalty fared before Gatwick presumably?

(I wonder if it's worth an extremely cheeky fight on the basis of the ticket being - based upon it being an additional £30.60 - a route "not Gatwick Express", if I'm reading that correctly. Technically this is totally at odds with another position on this forum but...)

(See this BRFares link for what I'm referring to. The 1659 is indeed a Gatwick Express service, but unless I've made an error the penalty fare has been based on the "not Gatwick Express" fare. There are separate arguments about what "not Gatwick Express" means but there could be fun here one way or the other trying to make GTR be consistent).

 

[Hadders]

Discussion about first class when Gatwick Experess branded trains operate a Southern branded service has been moved to a separate thread:

Discussion About First Class When a Gatwick Express Branded Train Operates a Southern Branded Service

Split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/help-can-anyone-advise-me-on-how-best-to-contest-a-penalty-fare-issued-by-govia-thameslink.280279/#post-7128860 I’ve certainly been on a Gatwick express with an on board supervisor / guard / whatever the correct title is. In fact I sought her out...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Egg Centric]

@Joel Hills to expand upon my post.

I believe (but would welcome input from those more expert than me) that since you have apparently already been "accepted" into the appeals process and so it would be inequitable to deny you from taking it further now regardless of what time limits may have applied, you can take the following argument to the second appeal stage - where it will inevitably be rejected but then just retry it at the third stage.

Regulation 9(6)(c) of the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 (as amended) state that the full single fare applicable for the journey must be based upon "the train and route that person is using, has used or intends to use.". The fare you have been charged, £130.60, can only have been pased upon an first anytime day single, routed "not Gatwick Express". Since the train that you were using was a Gatwick Express train, the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with regulations - and should be cancelled.

Where this gets a bit more complex

There is an ongoing legal case where, in short, the ability of Govia Thameslink to differentiate between brands in this way is being questioned and the consensus of opinion of this forum is that it can't.

Why that's likely irrelevant or works in your favour

It's highly unlikely that that legal case is going to be settled any time soon. In the meantime, it is in GTR's interest to act as though it absolutely can make such routings and enforcing them - and if it is doing so it can hardly be charging you as though it suddenly can't, can it?*

*On the other hand if it decided to admit that it can charge you that way - then there will be a lot of posters here very interested in that

 

[Joel Hills]

@Joel Hills to expand upon my post.

I believe (but would welcome input from those more expert than me) that since you have apparently already been "accepted" into the appeals process and so it would be inequitable to deny you from taking it further now regardless of what time limits may have applied, you can take the following argument to the second appeal stage - where it will inevitably be rejected but then just retry it at the third stage.



Where this gets a bit more complex

There is an ongoing legal case where, in short, the

Done!

Let’s see what happens. I cannot believe you spotted that!!!

ability of Govia Thameslink to differentiate between brands in this way is being questioned and the consensus of opinion of this forum is that it can't.

Why that's likely irrelevant or works in your favour

It's highly unlikely that that legal case is going to be settled any time soon. In the meantime, it is in GTR's interest to act as though it absolutely can make such routings and enforcing them - and if it is doing so it can hardly be charging you as though it suddenly can't, can it?*

*On the other hand if it decided to admit that it can charge you that way - then there will be a lot of posters here very interested in that

 

[Hadders]

This is a very interesting case and I expect the first and second appeals to be rejected. The third appeal is considered by an independent panel so there is more chance of success at that stage.

Please do let us know how you get on.