Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[aavm]

Is there any timetable for when Esher - Woking will be added.

 

[Edvid]

There is no date for any of the other 131 stations yet, including Esher - Woking. IMO their inclusion in Project Oval shouldn't be treated as a given until an official announcement (like the previous July 2023 and September 2024 releases) is made.

 

[aavm]

@Edvid Thanks.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There's currently a ticket easement 700714 which states tickets to Cambridge/Cambridge North are essentially interchangeable unless advances (a sort of lazy Cambridge Stations group, which does also sort of exist in the data but is essentially unused).

Whaaat? I travelled London to Cambridge last week. Discovered en route that it actually would've been easier for me to alight at Cambridge North but didn't because my (off-peak return) ticket said, Cambridge, and I didn't want to get penalty-fare'd. So from what you're saying, I assume I could have gone to Cambridge North. Fares really need to become less opaque.

 

[Kite159]

Whaaat? I travelled London to Cambridge last week. Discovered en route that it actually would've been easier for me to alight at Cambridge North but didn't because my (off-peak return) ticket said, Cambridge, and I didn't want to get penalty-fare'd. So from what you're saying, I assume I could have gone to Cambridge North. Fares really need to become less opaque.

Or for tickets towards Cambridge to be marked "Cambridge or Cambridge North" like they are for other stations.

 

[higthomas]

Or for tickets towards Cambridge to be marked "Cambridge or Cambridge North" like they are for other stations.

Yeah, I don't get why they're not just Cambridge stations as they are in many places.

 

[Kite159]

Yeah, I don't get why they're not just Cambridge stations as they are in many places.

"Can I use this ticket to Cambridge Heath?"

 

[A S Leib]

"Can I use this ticket to Cambridge Heath?"

"Why isn't my Reading stations group ticket valid to Library tram stop?"

 

[weeklycommuter]

There's currently a ticket easement 700714 which states tickets to Cambridge/Cambridge North are essentially interchangeable unless advances (a sort of lazy Cambridge Stations group, which does also sort of exist in the data but is essentially unused).
If contactless extended to Cambridge but not Cambridge North, there will be no way of completing a journey at Cambridge North on contactless, but technically a contactless journey from the Oval Zone to Cambridge (as stands) would be valid to Cambridge North.
I imagine it's most likely the easement that will change / be scrubbed, but it does highlight the boundary being at Cambridge (rather than North) is a little odd (it makes sense insofar as it's the Thameslink limit, but it does mean the Greater Anglia services from Liverpool Street have contactless valid at all but one station). Of course, if you make that argument for Cambridge North you can probably make it for Ely, and so on (ad infinitum), and it's not dissimilar to LNW to Milton Keynes (though that has a stronger reason not to be included in Project Oval).

Whaaat? I travelled London to Cambridge last week. Discovered en route that it actually would've been easier for me to alight at Cambridge North but didn't because my (off-peak return) ticket said, Cambridge, and I didn't want to get penalty-fare'd. So from what you're saying, I assume I could have gone to Cambridge North. Fares really need to become less opaque.

Or for tickets towards Cambridge to be marked "Cambridge or Cambridge North" like they are for other stations.

Yeah, I don't get why they're not just Cambridge stations as they are in many places.

The following two easements 700713 and 700714 were created on 10 May 2017 eleven days before Cambridge North Station opened on 21 May 2017. 700713 was created as for the first year of operation the service to Cambridge North from Fen Line stations North of Cambridge was poor and it was necessary in many cases to doubleback via Cambridge to travel to Cambridge North from Fen Line stations. With easement 700714 an off peak or anytime return ticket to Cambridge can be used to end the outward journey and start the return journey at either Cambridge or Cambridge North, including ending the outward journey at one of the stations and starting the return journey at the other station. A season ticket to and from Cambridge is valid at both Cambridge and Cambridge North. It would be clearer if tickets for a journey between one of the Cambridge Stations and anywhere else were stated to be to or from Cambridge Stations covering both Cambridge and Cambridge North. It would also be logical to include Cambridge South in this Cambridge Stations group. Project Oval should be able to include all Cambridge Stations as it just needs to apply the same fare for a journey between any of the Cambridge Stations and any other contactless station to match paper ticket fares. Project Oval can apply the correct fare for contactless travel from one of the Cambridge Stations to another of the Cambridge Stations. In view of easement 700714 if and when contactless is extended to Cambridge Station, contactless should be added at Cambridge North Station too as people can use both stations with paper tickets.

http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/easement_text.pdf

700713 Customers travelling to Cambridge North, from Waterbeach, Ely, Littleport, Downham Market, Watlington and Kings Lynn are permitted to doubleback via Cambridge. This positive doubleback easement applies in both directions Doubleback
700714 Tickets to/from Cambridge are also valid at Cambridge North and tickets to/from Cambridge North are also valid at Cambridge. This easement covers all tickets, including season tickets, except Advance tickets

 

[Hadders]

I know a line has to be drawn somewhere but it seems ludicrous not to include Cambridge North in Project Oval. Once Cambridge South opens I suspect there will be a large demand for sort distance journeys across Cambridge and these are the sort of journeys contactless is ideal for.

 

[higthomas]

I know a line has to be drawn somewhere but it seems ludicrous not to include Cambridge North in Project Oval. Once Cambridge South opens I suspect there will be a large demand for sort distance journeys across Cambridge and these are the sort of journeys contactless is ideal for.

I completely agree. I'd have thought it highly likely to end up included right?

 

[Teds]

I completely agree. I'd have thought it highly likely to end up included right?

Cambridge has two routes into London with fares that significantly cheaper on GA trains. Contactless would not deal with this situation. Unlike some other GA only fares. This fare differential is probably justified. The journey is significantly slower, less frequent and in less comfortable trains.
I agree there are likely to be a significant number of journeys between Cambridge North and South and also the relatively short (and already, very busy) trips from Ely and eventually Waterbeach. All of which would justify contactless ticketing.
I don't think Project Opal ever included any station north of Stevenage.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think Project Opal ever included any station north of Stevenage.

It's Project oval, not Opal, and it always included stations north of Stevenage - all the way to Cambridge.

 

[Trainbike46]

Cambridge has two routes into London with fares that significantly cheaper on GA trains. Contactless would not deal with this situation. Unlike some other GA only fares. This fare differential is probably justified. The journey is significantly slower, less frequent and in less comfortable trains.
I agree there are likely to be a significant number of journeys between Cambridge North and South and also the relatively short (and already, very busy) trips from Ely and eventually Waterbeach. All of which would justify contactless ticketing.
I don't think Project Opal ever included any station north of Stevenage.

Oval could maintain a fare differential between Cambridge and London depending on route, depending on where passengers check out:
Check out at Tottenham Hale, Stratford, or Liverpool Street -> charge GA fare
Check out at King's cross, Thameslink stations, or Moorgate -> charge Thameslink Great Northern fare

No clue if that is included in the plan, but it is possible due to the separate arrival stations including separate ticket barrier lines.

 

[PeterC]

Oval could maintain a fare differential between Cambridge and London depending on route, depending on where passengers check out:
Check out at Tottenham Hale, Stratford, or Liverpool Street -> charge GA fare
Check out at King's cross, Thameslink stations, or Moorgate -> charge Thameslink Great Northern fare

No clue if that is included in the plan, but it is possible due to the separate arrival stations including separate ticket barrier lines.

That depends on having pink readers on the cheaper route as both have direct access to TfL services.

 

[Trainbike46]

That depends on having pink readers on the cheaper route as both have direct access to TfL services.

We could add pink readers at Tottenham Hale, and I'm pretty sure every direct to TfL transfer would require a change there - unless I'm missing somewhere?

 

[CyrusWuff]

That depends on having pink readers on the cheaper route as both have direct access to TfL services.

No new route (pink) validators have been installed as part of Project Oval thus far. I would assume the same will apply for Phase 2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

We could add pink readers at Tottenham Hale, and I'm pretty sure every direct to TfL transfer would require a change there - unless I'm missing somewhere?

Tottenham Hale has separate NR and LU gatelines, so would require an intermediate touch anyway. Seven Sisters, Stratford, Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Farringdon all have interchanges on the "paid" side of the barriers.

 

[Trainbike46]

No new route (pink) validators have been installed as part of Project Oval thus far. I would assume the same will apply for Phase 2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==


Tottenham Hale has separate NR and LU gatelines, so would require an intermediate touch anyway. Seven Sisters, Stratford, Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Farringdon all have interchanges on the "paid" side of the barriers.

I'm aware of the separate gateline at Tottenham Hale, and as far as I've been able to find there is a separate gateline at Liverpool street between LU and GA as well.

The reason for having a pink reader at Tottenham Hale would be for transfer from GA Cambridge services to GA services towards Stratford - where there is direct access to LU/Elizabeth line/etc. services.

I forgot about Seven sisters, though it is not normally served by GA services, I think it does occasionally get served, especially during engineering works, so you would need a pink reader there.

you'd only need pink readers at the cheaper route, which is the GA one, so no need at Finsbury Park, Highbury&Islington, Farringdon, any other thameslink stations, etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Cambridge has two routes into London with fares that significantly cheaper on GA trains. Contactless would not deal with this situation. Unlike some other GA only fares. This fare differential is probably justified. The journey is significantly slower, less frequent and in less comfortable trains.

Under GBR those things shouldn't matter though. The journey is London to Cambridge with all money going into the same pot, and it isn't necessarily true that the services on the Liverpool Street line are cheaper to provide.

Having different fares for different services and different operators is one of the things which users of the railway find most confusing.

Clearly one approach would be to have a different price for touching out at Liverpool Street and Kings Cross or St Pancras, and the other places mentioned above, but is that desirable?

Project Oval is a matter of fares reform and simplification, which is what lots of people call for on this forum. As ever, it involves winners and losers.

 

[Hadders]

That depends on having pink readers on the cheaper route as both have direct access to TfL services.

It doesn’t.

Touch in at Cambridge and out at Tottenham Hale/Liverpool Street could be a different fare to a touch in at Cambridge and touch out at Kings Cross/St Pancras.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

We could add pink readers at Tottenham Hale, and I'm pretty sure every direct to TfL transfer would require a change there - unless I'm missing somewhere?

Coming from Cambridge, you could change to a Stratford train anywhere between Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale, and then change to TfL services at Stratford. So you would need pink readers at Stratford too in your scenario (Stratford already has them on the Overground platforms but I'm not sure about the rest of the station).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

Project Oval is a matter of fares reform and simplification, which is what lots of people call for on this forum. As ever, it involves winners and losers.

Different fares according to the route/which entrance you touch out of would be no different from many contactless journeys in London. For example, from Abbey Wood to Charing Cross, I'd be charged a different fare according to whether I exit through the NR or the Underground gates at Charing Cross. And numerous journeys are charged more cheaply if you can show (by using the pink readers) that you didn't go through Zone 1.

 

[Hadders]

Coming from Cambridge, you could change to a Stratford train anywhere between Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale, and then change to TfL services at Stratford. So you would need pink readers at Stratford too in your scenario (Stratford already has them on the Overground platforms but I'm not sure about the rest of the station).

No pink reader required. Just passing through the underground gates at Tottenham Hale would establish the route.

This already happens routinely on other parts of the TfL network where there is more than one route available.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No pink reader required. Just passing through the underground gates at Tottenham Hale would establish the route.

You would never pass through the underground gates at Tottenham Hale if you use Greater Anglia all the way to Stratford and change to TfL at Stratford.

 

[JonathanH]

You would never pass through the underground gates at Tottenham Hale if you use Greater Anglia all the way to Stratford and change to TfL at Stratford.

Neither would you pass through underground gates at Farringdon coming via Stevenage, or Finsbury Park. Charging extra for Kings Cross (only) for the mixed mode premium would be consistent with what is done elsewhere, but weren't we originally talking about differentiation for Liverpool Street and Kings Cross for journeys that end in London.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Neither would you pass through underground gates at Farringdon coming via Stevenage, or Finsbury Park. Charging extra for Kings Cross (only) for the mixed mode premium would be consistent with what is done elsewhere, but weren't we originally talking about differentiation for Liverpool Street and Kings Cross for journeys that end in London.

Yes we were. But the complication is, people who do Cambridge to some other destination in London without ever using the exit gates at any London terminus (such as, touch in at Cambridge, touch out at Tottenham Court Road or at White City, etc.). Unless you provide pink validators, you have no idea whether the person has travelled via Stevenage or via Bishops Stortford, so have no idea which routing to charge for.

 

[JonathanH]

Unless you provide pink validators, you have no idea whether the person has travelled via Stevenage or via Bishops Stortford, so have no idea which routing to charge for.

Indeed, so you remove the price differential and just charge the same fare. Is there a capacity need to continue to push passengers via Bishops Stortford once all the revenue goes to the same place?

 

[wagnaga]

Indeed, so you remove the price differential and just charge the same fare. Is there a capacity need to continue to push passengers via Bishops Stortford once all the revenue goes to the same place?

Yes certainly at the weekend trains from Kings Cross to London are packed. You need to encourage some use of the capacity on the Liverpool Street line or lengthen services

 

[Haywain]

M

Is there a capacity need to continue to push passengers via Bishops Stortford once all the revenue goes to the same place?

Potentially, there could be.

 

[arb]

With the big caveat that weekends are my only experience of travelling to London, the fast trains to King's Cross are horribly overcrowded. The Liverpool Street trains aren't. But the semi-fast and stopping services to King's Cross/St Pancras also aren't overcrowded. If the price differential is no longer about TOC revenue (Greater Anglia versus Great Northern/Thameslink) and is actually about encouraging people to use the less busy trains, you need a way to differentiate "fast train to KGX" from "eveything else to KGX/STP and LST".

 

[greenline712]

With the big caveat that weekends are my only experience of travelling to London, the fast trains to King's Cross are horribly overcrowded. The Liverpool Street trains aren't. But the semi-fast and stopping services to King's Cross/St Pancras also aren't overcrowded. If the price differential is no longer about TOC revenue (Greater Anglia versus Great Northern/Thameslink) and is actually about encouraging people to use the less busy trains, you need a way to differentiate "fast train to KGX" from "eveything else to KGX/STP and LST".

Or . . . dare I say . . . increase the 8 coach trains to 12 coaches? I know the Thameslink CBG - BTN trains are usually 12 car, but the "express" trains are normally 8 coach. My experience is similarly at weekends, but Cambridge is one of those "tourist magnets" . . . and Kings Cross Main Line is where tourists head for, rather than the Thameslink dungeon.

This is, of course, a drawback to Project Oval . . . harmonisation of fares isn't always the best way. Having said that, the cheaper fares from Liverpool Street obviously aren't working, if the GN trains are still overcrowded!!