Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[Bungle965]

Doesn’t look great does it!
I can see as of now (19:29) only 2 buses on the 142 which must be causing all sorts of issues, of course the usual caveats apply with bustimes as services may be running but not tracking.

142 - Piccadilly Gardens - Parrs Wood

Bee Network - Metroline

bustimes.org

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Doesn’t look great does it!
I can see as of now (19:29) only 2 buses on the 142 which must be causing all sorts of issues, of course the usual caveats apply with bustimes as services may be running but not tracking.

142 - Piccadilly Gardens - Parrs Wood

Bee Network - Metroline

bustimes.org

It's only showing 1 now, based on the timetable there should be about 10!

 

[Omnidekkalover]

It's only showing 1 now, based on the timetable there should be about 10

And 13 late

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Also I do wander if it would be a bad idea to reduce the 192 in frequency to every 4 or 5 minutes to be able to free up buses and drivers for other routes on Stagecoach ran services that need more vehicles

 

[158756]

It's only showing 1 now, based on the timetable there should be about 10!

None now, the last one arrived at East Didsbury half an hour ago and hasn't tracked since (returning to depot?)

 

[Andyh82]

And 13 late

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Also I do wander if it would be a bad idea to reduce the 192 in frequency to every 4 or 5 minutes to be able to free up buses and drivers for other routes on Stagecoach ran services that need more vehicles

The 142 and the services listed on the previous page are not Stagecoach services anymore, they are Metroline

 

[Omnidekkalover]

Made a mistake

 

[baza585]

Doesn’t look great does it!
I can see as of now (19:29) only 2 buses on the 142 which must be causing all sorts of issues, of course the usual caveats apply with bustimes as services may be running but not tracking.

142 - Piccadilly Gardens - Parrs Wood

Bee Network - Metroline

bustimes.org

Not much of an advert for Burnham's brave new world is it.

If these routes were still being run by Stagecoach he'd be shouting from the roof tops!

 

[Statto]

At least with the 142 issues, their is alternative routes in 42 group, plus other Wilmslow Road routes that go most of the way too, but it's not good look.

 

[Omnidekkalover]

Given he has already had to issue one apology

 

[markymark2000]

I don't know how many buses were out but First were operating a bus on the 143 last night and it didn't track, therefore tracking may not reflect the full service that was provided.

 

[Andyh82]

Does anyone know what the rules are about Bee Network operators doing any commercial work?

For example Diamond regularly do Rail Replacement, First used to have Amazon contracts I don’t know if they still do. They may use school franchise buses though?

If Metroline, GNW or Stagecoach did commercial work, would they have to keep a separate fleet of non Bee Network livery vehicles?

 

[Man of Kent]

Does anyone know what the rules are about Bee Network operators doing any commercial work?

For example Diamond regularly do Rail Replacement, First used to have Amazon contracts I don’t know if they still do. They may use school franchise buses though?

If Metroline, GNW or Stagecoach did commercial work, would they have to keep a separate fleet of non Bee Network livery vehicles?

Not permitted from TfGM owned depots (except Metrolink replacement). Don't know the rules for Bee-liveried buses from operator owned depots.

 

[Citibus]

Not permitted from TfGM owned depots (except Metrolink replacement). Don't know the rules for Bee-liveried buses from operator owned depots.

I take it that its the same rule for taking on a contract in Lancashire or Cheshire East areas? - it cant be opereated from a TfGM owned depot

 

[Leyland Bus]

I take it that its the same rule for taking on a contract in Lancashire or Cheshire East areas? - it cant be opereated from a TfGM owned depot

Correct.

I assume this might be possible from garages that are owned by the operator as TfGM will have no say over those, although it cannot be to the detriment to their Bee Network commitments...

 

[mangad]

Correct.

I assume this might be possible from garages that are owned by the operator as TfGM will have no say over those, although it cannot be to the detriment to their Bee Network commitments...

Diamond run some of the Manchester City match day buses, presumably out of Eccles or Bolton. The times are on bustimes.org

Pre Bee Network, Stagecoach ran some as well, and they showed up on bustimes.org. But those routes aren't listed on the website any more.

 

[Park47515]

Diamond run some of the Manchester City match day buses, presumably out of Eccles or Bolton. The times are on bustimes.org

Pre Bee Network, Stagecoach ran some as well, and they showed up on bustimes.org. But those routes aren't listed on the website any more.

Are they not TFGM contracts though, so could be allowed like a metrolink replacement?

 

[Leyland Bus]

Diamond run some of the Manchester City match day buses, presumably out of Eccles or Bolton. The times are on bustimes.org

Pre Bee Network, Stagecoach ran some as well, and they showed up on bustimes.org. But those routes aren't listed on the website any more.

But aren't those organised by TfGM? They're certainly heavily promoted by them...

 

[mangad]

Are they not TFGM contracts though, so could be allowed like a metrolink replacement?

Dunno. But Stagecoach have a small depot at Little Hulton don't they, so even if it was a problem for the big depots, they could still do it.

They may well be. It's just the routes don't appear on bustimes any more. Diamond's do if you search for Diamond Bus North West.

 

[mayneway]

But aren't those organised by TfGM? They're certainly heavily promoted by them...

They are indeed!

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What options do TfGM have in this situation? Presumably their other operators aren't overflowing with drivers either. Are Metroline being fined for failing to operate the contracted service?

Metroline get a 3 month grace period before fines kick in, but this won’t go down well with TFGM.
Problem is while the driver shortage is an issue, allegedly all the depots are struggling also with vehicle shortages, but another worrying saga is they are not actively recruiting. They are advertising for drivers but apparently nobody is getting responses.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2025 ==

Are they not TFGM contracts though, so could be allowed like a metrolink replacement?

They are TFGM contracts. Metrolink replacement work is organised by a third party it’s not directly TFGM.
As long as the depot and vehicle are operator owned and the work won’t affect Bee Network commitments it’s perfectly acceptable.

 

[johncrossley]

they are not actively recruiting. They are advertising for drivers

If they are advertising for drivers, isn't that "actively recruiting"? I wouldn't be surprised if recruitment agencies have signed lucrative deals charging 30% of first year pay or even more.

 

[mayneway]

If they are advertising for drivers, isn't that "actively recruiting"? I wouldn't be surprised if recruitment agencies have signed lucrative deals charging 30% of first year pay or even more.

Well 3 of my colleagues have applied and heard absolutely nothing back. I emailed them beginning of January and never got a response and reading comments on a couple of Facebook groups tonight it seems others have had the same silent response.

 

[M60lad]

I'm not saying this could happen but supposing Metroline decide enough is enough with the driver shortages and decide to withdraw from Manchester what is the situation then and what happens to all the services? Would they be picked up by another Bee Network operator?

It does seem from what I'm hearing that more and more drivers are leaving Metroline each week leading to big gaps in service provision on many routes.

 

[Mollman]

I'm not saying this could happen but supposing Metroline decide enough is enough with the driver shortages and decide to withdraw from Manchester what is the situation then and what happens to all the services? Would they be picked up by another Bee Network operator?

It does seem from what I'm hearing that more and more drivers are leaving Metroline each week leading to big gaps in service provision on many routes.

I am guessing there is a hand back process for a franchise which involves giving notice and TfGM going back out to tender.

 

[mayneway]

I'm not saying this could happen but supposing Metroline decide enough is enough with the driver shortages and decide to withdraw from Manchester what is the situation then and what happens to all the services? Would they be picked up by another Bee Network operator?

It does seem from what I'm hearing that more and more drivers are leaving Metroline each week leading to big gaps in service provision on many routes.

Can’t see them walking away completely. Possibly releasing depots to other operators - Ashton to First for example!
They have took on far too much and should have maybe just gone for Hyde road and Sharston.

 

[mangad]

Can’t see them walking away completely. Possibly releasing depots to other operators - Ashton to First for example!
They have took on far too much and should have maybe just gone for Hyde road and Sharston.

It's possible they didn't expect to get four depots. But they're not a small operator. They're owned by a big group, and have a lot of experience in London.

Personally I can't help but think the faffing around with routes hasn't helped though. They've had a lot of trouble with schools services. But part of that surely hasn't been helped by TfGM making some very strange decisions there. Why are several Stockport school services being run out of Ashton? It's no wonder many school services were a mess given the drivers probably won't have known the area they were driving in. Several of the routes had been run out of Stockport before Bee Network, and the drivers there would have been very familiar with the area.

I know any service changing depot is liable to have issues and Diamond had many with school and public routes, but again, depots quite far from the areas they're serving, and lack of local knowledge...

 

[mayneway]

It's possible they didn't expect to get four depots. But they're not a small operator. They're owned by a big group, and have a lot of experience in London.

Personally I can't help but think the faffing around with routes hasn't helped though. They've had a lot of trouble with schools services. But part of that surely hasn't been helped by TfGM making some very strange decisions there. Why are several Stockport school services being run out of Ashton? It's no wonder many school services were a mess given the drivers probably won't have known the area they were driving in. Several of the routes had been run out of Stockport before Bee Network, and the drivers there would have been very familiar with the area.

I know any service changing depot is liable to have issues and Diamond had many with school and public routes, but again, depots quite far from the areas they're serving, and lack of local knowledge...

From what’s been said from colleagues and comments I’ve seen online, it’s managers from London who have come up thinking it will run the same as down there, and it’s not that simple.

They took over depots that were all virtually fully staffed - Ashton was known as dead man’s shoes, then suddenly they are massively short at all depots.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not saying this could happen but supposing Metroline decide enough is enough with the driver shortages and decide to withdraw from Manchester what is the situation then and what happens to all the services? Would they be picked up by another Bee Network operator?

It does seem from what I'm hearing that more and more drivers are leaving Metroline each week leading to big gaps in service provision on many routes.

I am guessing there is a hand back process for a franchise which involves giving notice and TfGM going back out to tender.

I don't think they're anywhere near that at the moment. We're six weeks into the largest and most complex of the tranches (which is why it was kept 'til the end). Metroline/CDG is generally well regarded as a London contractor. They submitted the best offers for the packages that they won. Had TfGM wanted to de-risk the process, they could've had a process where there was a cap on the amount of work a single party could have won.

As for handing franchises back, I'd be interested to know what the contract states about that. Usually, if you hand back a publicly procured contract (and unless you can prove that there was something fundamentally wrong with the procurement exercise), then the business can be liable for the costs of a new procurement exercise. Again, depending what the contract says, there might be the ability to sub-contract a depot but can you imagine what a rival would charge for that?

From what’s been said from colleagues and comments I’ve seen online, it’s managers from London who have come up thinking it will run the same as down there, and it’s not that simple.

That's not surprising if 95% of your business is London based, you're going to be massively influenced in your thinking. Then again, wasn't Andy Burnham selling this on it delivering "London style" bus benefits? I'm sure that they expected a bit of churn in the workforce but clearly not to this extent.

At the end of the day, our concern should be with the passengers. Not nice waiting for buses that don't arrive, impacting on people's work and home lives, and especially at this time of year.

 

[Ghostbus]

From what’s been said from colleagues and comments I’ve seen online, it’s managers from London who have come up thinking it will run the same as down there, and it’s not that simple.

It surely can't be any harder than expanding from being one single London Buses business unit to one of the largest London operators with First, Arriva, Go-Ahead and Stagecoach as your competitors.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It surely can't be any harder than expanding from being one single London Buses business unit to one of the largest London operators with First, Arriva, Go-Ahead and Stagecoach as your competitors.

That was achieved much more steadily and via the purchase of part of an existing business with very little change.

This was a much bigger deal

 

[geoffk]

It surely can't be any harder than expanding from being one single London Buses business unit to one of the largest London operators with First, Arriva, Go-Ahead and Stagecoach as your competitors.

Would transferring routes between depots help? I'm thinking 36/37 run by Go North West, presumably from Bolton, but similar 38 run from Hyde Road by Metroline. If Metroline is short of staff, move the 38 to Bolton........... but I expect that's too easy an answer!