European Sleeper route to Barcelona

[danchester]

The sky isn't blue, the pope isn't catholic, pigs are flying and SNCF Réseau are being cooperative.

According to Treinreiziger.nl, picked up in English here, they have conducted a feasibility study into European Sleeper operating a route to Barcelona (from Belgium/the Netherlands) and concluded that "an acceptable timetable is possible in France".

The main issue remaining according to European Sleeper is simply rolling stock availability, which they hope to solve by 2026.

According to European Sleeper, which shared the news with Treinreiziger.nl, French railway infrastructure manager SNCF Réseau conducted a feasibility study stating an acceptable timetable is possible in France for the European Sleeper night train to Barcelona in Catalonia.

However, as usual, a key obstacle remains: the availability of rolling stock. At present, European Sleeper does not have the necessary carriages to launch the service. Co-founder Chris Engelsman told Treinreiziger.nl that, as a result, it is unrealistic to expect the train to start running in 2026, though he added that the company would aim for that timeline if suitable rolling stock is secured.

Plans for the night train to Barcelona have been in development for some time, but until now, there was no viable timetable for the route through France. That issue has now been resolved, although a precise schedule has yet to be determined.

Seems like good news (it comes from ES themselves, but this is something they've been trying to get for years, I don't see why they would lie about it). Presumably the rolling stock ES currently have access to are not able to operate in France and/or Spain - any thoughts on what their plans are/could be?

 

[popeter45]

wonder if they are cooperating in return for ES working with them, e.g. using SNCF haulage or even rolling stock for the route?
do SNCF have enough spare corail couchettes to use for such a service?, would just need some sleepers if they decide to use sleepers on such a route
pretty sure the old talgo sets are unsalvagable at this point sadly as been parked up for so long

 

[mad_rich]

One small step towards the goal, I suppose, but I won't hold my breath.

I presume these would have to run on the high-speed line in Spain, as that's the only standard-gauge? Are they welcome there?

If I was SNCF, I'd be looking at extending the Cerbère sleeper to Barcelona, as a spoiler.

 

[rvdborgt]

wonder if they are cooperating in return for ES working with them, e.g. using SNCF haulage or even rolling stock for the route?

Maybe they're cooperating because the EC may be watching closely.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One small step towards the goal, I suppose, but I won't hold my breath.

I presume these would have to run on the high-speed line in Spain, as that's the only standard-gauge? Are they welcome there?

If I was SNCF, I'd be looking at extending the Cerbère sleeper to Barcelona, as a spoiler.

It would have to miss out Cerbère (which is no great loss!) and take the high-speed line from Perpignan. Only Barcelona to Figueres is dual gauge.

 

[TheSmiths82]

This would be brilliant, I usually have to get the high speed train to Perpignan and then change there, although last time I did spent a couple of nights in Perpignan and I actually really liked the place, a very underrated city. The night train always seems a bit of a faff having to change at a station in the middle of no where. I worry about the cost though.

 

[danchester]

I've always found changing at Latour or Cerbère off the night train to be a novel adventure, indeed my journey has often been all the richer for it (enjoying breakfast while soaking up the autumn sun in the central square in Portbou not long ago was a reminder of the charms of slow travel!) - but yes, it is hard to argue that this wouldn't be an enormous improvement. Especially when it seems unlikely SNCF are going to be upping the Paris-Barcelona TGV service pattern any time soon.

The market for passengers from Belgium/Netherlands/UK, even Germany/Scandinavia, to Barcelona (and beyond) is surely pretty big and a great shot at night train viability. I suspect ES are pretty convinced of this, hence they've been fighting against the odds to make it happen!

 

[HS2isgood]

SNCF Réseau has decided to actually safeguard night train paths from December 2027, totally not under EC pressure.

 

[rvdborgt]

SNCF Réseau has decided to actually safeguard night train paths from December 2027, totally not under EC pressure.

I imagine that they received some friendly advice.

 

[trebor79]

One small step towards the goal, I suppose, but I won't hold my breath.

I presume these would have to run on the high-speed line in Spain, as that's the only standard-gauge? Are they welcome there?

What has happened to the variable gauge Talgo sets that used to do the Paris-Madrid sleeper?

 

[popeter45]

What has happened to the variable gauge Talgo sets that used to do the Paris-Madrid sleeper?

rotting away for years in a open air sideing https://www.google.com/maps/@43.534865,-5.7068911,237m

and the Lisbon sets have been converted to train carriages for the S-107's

 

[mad_rich]

I seem to remember a (very rough) draft timetable doing the rounds when ES announced their intention to run this route.

Does anyone have a copy?

I’m particularly interested in whether there would be a stop at Lille, for connections from London? I’m interested in London-Figueres/ Girona.

 

[danchester]

I seem to remember a (very rough) draft timetable doing the rounds when ES announced their intention to run this route.

Does anyone have a copy?

I’m particularly interested in whether there would be a stop at Lille, for connections from London? I’m interested in London-Figueres/ Girona.

Managed to dig this out from 2022:

Obviously highly speculative. Indeed, as the articles at the top of the thread note, ES are suggesting that the train may need to start in Brussels because the path they've got through France would lead to a too early start for Dutch passengers. (Which, as the Man in Seat 61 points out, seems slightly flawed logic because it would just mean that Dutch passengers would have to leave even earlier on a connecting service. It may be that getting access to tracks and to Amsterdam Centraal in particular during the evening peak is more trouble than its worth, and/or they're burned from recent attempts to run a service through too many countries...)

Mark also suggests that it may not serve Lille any more, with British passengers needing to change at Brussels.

 

[Bemined]

Getting capacity between Den Haag and Rotterdam between 7:00 en 19:00 can be hard as well. Right now to make room for freight trains a couple of trains per day are permanently cancelled here. International open access trains however have an even lower priority as no minimum capacity has been set for those as the government expects those to take the high speed line instead.

 

[mad_rich]

Thanks for digging that out @danchester. Doesn’t quite allow an ‘after work’ departure from London on those timings, but pretty close.

It would be a shame if they can’t serve Lille.

 

[popeter45]

Managed to dig this out from 2022:

curious as to what the route from Lille to Avignon?
big sea of Diesel only lines between then unless going via freight lines on outskirts of Paris

 

[nwales58]

curious as to what the route from Lille to Avignon?
big sea of Diesel only lines between then unless going via freight lines on outskirts of Paris

Surely it's back to the good old days. Classic lines and around the (Paris) ceinture just as the equivalent trains did in the 70s and 80s.

 

[childwallblues]

There used to be a sleeper/car carrier from Denderleeuw to Narbonne which finished in 2003. Electric hauled it used to change locos at Luxembourg from Class 21/27 to 222xx or 26xx. We used it many times. You had to put the car on the upper deck of the car carrier yourself. Quite scary.

 

[signed]

Presumably the rolling stock ES currently have access to are not able to operate in France and/or Spain - any thoughts on what their plans are/could be?

I don't think there exists currently a French certified ETCS loco (needed for the Perpignan-Figueras LGV). Maybe they're betting on the Siemens Vectron getting certified soon (which is very wishful thinking)?

 

[popeter45]

I don't think there exists currently a French certified ETCS loco (needed for the Perpignan-Figueras LGV). Maybe they're betting on the Siemens Vectron getting certified soon (which is very wishful thinking)?

do renfe have a ETCS standard gauge loco's?, must have somthing for rescue/engineering?

 

[nwales58]

Surely there is freight on the Perthus route so suitable motive power?

Otherwise, can the RENFE 252 get as far as the yard outside Perpignan with ETCS-2 alone?

do renfe have a ETCS standard gauge loco's?, must have somthing for rescue/engineering?

252 is their electric passenger loco. some are standard gauge 220 km/h with ECTS-2 for loco-hauled trains on the high speed lines (which continued onto broad gauge) but see less use now S-730 Alvia units are being used instead.

 

[HS2isgood]

Renfe is willing to drag them with a 252 or a 256 whenever they're available in Iberian gauge (post-March 2027). Remember ES partners with Arenaways (Renfe). They'll also sell Renfe connections.

 

[signed]

Otherwise, can the RENFE 252 get as far as the yard outside Perpignan with ETCS-2 alone?

The LGV start/ends a fair bit out of the station (or any yard that I could see on OpenRailwayMap).

But according to ORM, ETCS is extending to Perpignan station, but anyway they aren't certified to run in France, and we know that it takes a lot of time to certify in France

My guess is that they are waiting for the Vectron

 

[HS2isgood]

The LGV start/ends a fair bit out of the station (or any yard that I could see on OpenRailwayMap).

But according to ORM, ETCS is extending to Perpignan station, but anyway they aren't certified to run in France, and we know that it takes a lot of time to certify in France

My guess is that they are waiting for the Vectron

Spanish stock can run to Le Soler yard, class 252's did that with freight... Before everyone in the freight business left Renfe.

 

[signed]

Spanish stock can run to Le Soler yard, class 252's did that with freight... Before everyone in the freight business left Renfe.

Didn't know that

 

[30907]

Surely it's back to the good old days. Classic lines and around the (Paris) ceinture just as the equivalent trains did in the 70s and 80s.

There used to be a sleeper/car carrier from Denderleeuw to Narbonne which finished in 2003. Electric hauled it used to change locos at Luxembourg from Class 21/27 to 222xx or 26xx. .

I wonder whether the question of alternative routes was a factor in dropping the Lille stop (as well as the reversal at L-Flandres)? Much easier to leave the route via Luxembourg AND via Paris as options to allow RFF's moles to play work .

(OT, but the Paris Nightjet was cancelled for several months last year because of said moles and no alternative route).

 

[WessexEclectic]

Much easier to leave the route via Luxembourg AND via Paris as options to allow RFF's moles to play work .

¿Qué?

 

[signed]

¿Qué?

SNCF Réseau, once called Réseau Férré de France

 

[30907]

SNCF Réseau, once called Réseau Férré de France

I should keep up - thanks.

 

[WessexEclectic]

Thanks.

Take it the 'moles' are l'Armée Orange de RFF?....