What locomotives would work far north line timber trains?

[Zander trains]

West Fraser Inverness (formally Norbord) are currently going through planning to build a railfreight terminal at Dalcross, near Inverness.

The project is estimated to take between 12 and 18 months and, once completed should see some form of rail freight running to and from the factory, this may also include timber from the far north line.

Inverness-shire wood panel manufacturer plans to give 20,000 HGV journeys the chop in road to rail switch

A world-leading eco-friendly wood panel firm near Inverness is looking to switch transportation from road to rail to save 20,000 HGV journeys a year.

www.inverness-courier.co.uk

A world-leading manufacturer of eco-friendly wood panels near Inverness is looking to switch transportation from road to rail to save 20,000 HGV journeys a year.

West Fraser Europe Ltd - formerly known as Norbord - wants Highland Council planners to approve early stage plans to create a rail sidings yard near its mill at Morayhill in the Dalcross area

I am guessing trains will start running sometime in 2027? When they do, what traction will be used?

I am curious, as the Cambrian logs utilise class 37s & 97s, so would class 37s also be used for far north timber?

A problem that people often bring up is the lack of wagons required for timber trains for the far north after the ones used in the trials were scrapped, so if the wagons required were obtained, what traction would be used?

 

[Anonymous10]

So west fraser inverness formally Norbord are currently going through planning to build a railfreight terminal at dalcross near Inverness. The Project is estimated to take between 12 and 18 months and once completed will see timber trains running regularly from Georgemas junction.
I am guessing trains will start running sometime in 2027, and when they do what traction will be used? I am curious what will be used as the Cambrian logs utilise class 37s & 97s so would class 37s also be used for far north timber? A problem that people often bring up is the lack of wagons required for timber trains for the far north after the ones used in the trials were scrapped, so if the wagons required were obtained, what traction would be used?

Would depend who operates the flow, route clearance ect. The class 97s are fitted with etcs to allow use on the cambrian and are the ONLY locomotives allowed on that line. Class 56s have been used for other similar flows too.

 

[Nym]

The Far North Line isn't signalled with ETCS, it's signalled using RETB-NG (Radio Electric Token Block - Next Generation), which is fitted to a whole plethora of locomotives, including several Class 66s and 57s, as well as some 37s.

 

[Anonymous10]

The Far North Line isn't signalled with ETCS, it's signalled using RETB-NG (Radio Electric Token Block - Next Generation), which is fitted to a whole plethora of locomotives, including several Class 66s and 57s, as well as some 37s.

Yes, my point was the class 97s (converted 37s) are only used on the cambrian as they're the only ones they can use and that that it could be any one of several classes.

 

[Spaceship323]

Would depend who operates the flow, route clearance ect. The class 97s are fitted with etcs to allow use on the cambrian and are the ONLY locomotives allowed on that line. Class 56s have been used for other similar flows too.

Any locomotive is allowed as long as it's double headed with a 97 at the front, colas do it with 37405 and a class 97 all the time

 

[Anonymous10]

Any locomotive is allowed as long as it's double headed with a 97 at the front, colas do it with 37405 all the time

I thought it was only 97s, must be confusing it as the 158s can't go down the line with anything else that it applied to all Traction.

 

[43096]

I thought it was only 97s, must be confusing it as the 158s can't go down the line with anything else that it applied to all Traction.

You only need an ETCS fitted cab leading, the "inside" loco doesn't need to be fitted.

 

[BlueLeanie]

If it was only one single braked wagon, are there any DMUs that could haul it?

Indeed, could a Pacer or 155 be rebuilt as a powered wagon to travel with a 158/156/170 to minimise the use of paths on the FNL?

 

[Spaceship323]

If it was only one single braked wagon, are there any DMUs that could haul it?

Indeed, could a Pacer or 155 be rebuilt as a powered wagon to travel with a 158/156/170 to minimise the use of paths on the FNL?

In the trials 20 odd years ago the timber ran at night when there were no passenger trains. (and a full load would be more than 1 wagon)

 

[sprinterguy]

If it was only one single braked wagon, are there any DMUs that could haul it?

There was a timber trial on the Cambrian line in 2005 using Windhoff Multi Purpose Vehicles (MPVs), more commonly used for sandite and weedkilling duties and the like, sandwiching seven OTA timber wagons. It was a one off; I believe the associated costs of loading, unloading and operating such a short formation wasn't deemed cost effective: Railfreight really excels at shifting bulk trainloads.

I would also wonder whether the load bearing qualities of a Pacer or Sprinter chassis would be adequate to stand up to the increased weight of a timber load, and you'd be hard pressed to find any Pacer vehicles that aren't preserved or in private use off the national network.

As noted above, far easier to run a conventional train at night, out of the way of the passenger services.

 

[NorthernNiall]

The project is estimated to take between 12 and 18 months and, once completed, will see timber trains running regularly from Georgemas junction.

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves, there's nothing in that article that says traffic will start regularly from G'mas Jn. In fact, there's nothing to suggest FNL traffic at all. This is simply an article regarding planning permission for the new sidings. Admittedly, the quote, "The objective of the proposed development is to provide an alternative means of transporting materials to and from West Fraser’s existing site via the use of rail instead of road...", does at least point to raw materials coming in via rail, but the priority at this stage is finished product out.

Unless you have conclusive evidence that FNL traffic will start? Altnabreac is stalled and there ain't no timber wagons

Niall

 

[Meerkat]

Am I right in thinking some of this stuff already goes out by container, in the empties of the Tesco trains to Inverness?
So will this just be a trip from Inverness to the factory and back??

 

[Zander trains]

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves, there's nothing in that article that says traffic will start regularly from G'mas Jn. In fact, there's nothing to suggest FNL traffic at all. This is simply an article regarding planning permission for the new sidings. Admittedly, the quote, "The objective of the proposed development is to provide an alternative means of transporting materials to and from West Fraser’s existing site via the use of rail instead of road...", does at least point to raw materials coming in via rail, but the priority at this stage is finished product out.

Unless you have conclusive evidence that FNL traffic will start? Altnabreac is stalled and there ain't no timber wagons

https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2024/05/14/timber-yard-planed-for-scottish-highlands/

The multinational timber processing company West Fraser would like a rail freight terminal at its Highland mill. The company has begun the planning application process. If it is successful it would see raw timber trains arriving at a production plant near Inverness. Finished product trains would depart, potentially heading for customers all over Europe.

here is an Article I found which clearly states "raw materials" being imported by rail.

It might not be straight away like I originally said but the timber trials in 2020 seem like a good indicator that they intend to have timber freight in the future.

I will admit though, I probably shouldn't have stated as there being "regular traffic from georgemas" starting straight away. but I do think timber traffic will eventually start.

 

[3RDGEN]

Am I right in thinking some of this stuff already goes out by container, in the empties of the Tesco trains to Inverness?
So will this just be a trip from Inverness to the factory and back??

That's correct they use the empty return leg of the TESCO trains at present but have to road that from the site to Inverness for loading. This article details their long term plans;

"https://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/24Sep/24sep16.php" -

"In June (2024) West Fraser moved to another stage in the process of building a rail facility at their factory at Dalcross (formally Norbord). Two public consultation sessions took place in June and gave interested parties the chance to look at the plans and discuss them with WF staff. Our member Colin Alston attended the first session on 6 June. The main points he took away were:

• WF plans to run 2 trains of 14 wagons per day down to Coatbridge, though initially just one
• it will use the Tesco containers until it has its own stock........

For incoming wood there was planning permission granted in late 2021 for a trackside loading site on the Far North line but nothing appears to have happened on that so not sure if the permission has lapsed. The claim is there's no suitable timber wagons available.

"https://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/22Feb/22feb23.php" -

Long-awaited good news reached FoFNL at the end of 2021. The Highland Council showed its commitment to modal shift by granting planning permission on 10 December to Caledonia Forest Land Investment Ltd for the construction of a trackside loading facility on the north side of the railway adjacent to Altnabreac Station. The forestry from which the timber will originate is on the same side.

 

[Meerkat]

That's correct they use the empty return leg of the TESCO trains at present but have to road that from the site to Inverness for loading. This article details their long term plans;

Blimey, I hadn’t realised there was a two trains a day possibility - that’s impressive.
i don’t really understand why they need the Tesco stock, surely there are flats and containers knocking about spare? Does it all go out the containers and onto lorries at Coatbridge, or could the containers go further south by train?

The claim is there's no suitable timber wagons available.

How much effort are timber conversions, maybe from old coal/aggregates wagons - presumably low speed wouldn’t be an issue on that line?

 

[3RDGEN]

Blimey, I hadn’t realised there was a two trains a day possibility - that’s impressive.
i don’t really understand why they need the Tesco stock, surely there are flats and containers knocking about spare? Does it all go out the containers and onto lorries at Coatbridge, or could the containers go further south by train?

How much effort are timber conversions, maybe from old coal/aggregates wagons - presumably low speed wouldn’t be an issue on that line?

They use the existing TESCO containers as there empty returning south so an initial stop gap for some of their outgoing product but it appears they wish to move to a much expanded dedicated service once the rail link is in place. The two trains a day to Coatbridge maybe due to weight or loop length issues on the Highland Mainline, not sure if the plan is to combine them at Coatbridge for onward movement south.

For the inbound timber there is another FoFNL article re wagon conversion;

"https://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/25Jan/25jan28.php" - "A partnership between Freightliner, WH Davis and Porterbrook will see a residual coal fleet repurposed into aggregate box wagons, supporting the UK supply chain and driving sustainable innovation in the rail industry. The repurposed wagons will be funded by Porterbrook, with the conversions being carried out at the WH Davis factory in Mansfield, bringing new life and service to an otherwise redundant fleet."

The original Porterbrook article is;

"https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...g sustainable innovation in the rail industry." -

"Porterbrook to repurpose Freightliner coal wagon fleet"​

So until the wagons and lineside loading pad are available the thread query re loco's is a bit of an unknown but we may see details for the outbound trains in the next year or two.

 

[Meerkat]

They use the existing TESCO containers as there empty returning south so an initial stop gap for some of their outgoing product but it appears they wish to move to a much expanded dedicated service once the rail link is in place.

I hope this won’t result in the Tesco trains becoming uneconomic?

 

[Spaceship323]

They'd run back empty anyway so this is just a temporary back load for the containers (which Tesco could say no to at any time)

 

[IanH440]

what are the existing loop and sidings at the Inverness factory used for?

 

[3RDGEN]

what are the existing loop and sidings at the Inverness factory used for?

The West Fraser site doesn't have any rail lines yet, Network Rail put a link to the Mainline in place under the works for Inverness Airport station/loop so it's ready to be connected up once the planning application is granted for the West Fraser site. The mainline runs down the side of the site and you can just about see the current arrangement on Google maps.

 

[IanH440]

The West Fraser site doesn't have any rail lines yet, Network Rail put a link to the Mainline in place under the works for Inverness Airport station/loop so it's ready to be connected up once the planning application is granted for the West Fraser site. The mainline runs down the side of the site and you can just about see the current arrangement on Google maps.

That what i was looking at.. Two switches - a short headshunt and a siding -- were the connections made to the local panel at the same time...

 

[3RDGEN]

That what i was looking at.. Two switches - a short headshunt and a siding -- were the connections made to the local panel at the same time...

I believe it was all done under the Airport station scheme, it is ready to go once the site works are complete is my understanding.

Does anyone know if the TESCO containers go to the factory for loading and returned by road or is the finished product taken from the factory to the Inverness yard for loading to the containers there?