Transpennine Express on the West Coast

[Foxcover]

Is Transpennine facing particular issues on the West Coast operation? Just been with them for a couple of days and both my long-distance journeys (Lime St to Glasgow and return) were cancelled throughout; on one of them they refused to allow re-routing via Northern services Liverpool to Preston and insisted we travel on TPE services to Manchester to pick up the Manchester-Glasgow service; there was of course no question of Avanti picking up the crowds given the flakiness of TPE’s offering.

Feels like still very much a failing operation where there isn’t much sympathy from other operators (even in the same group), the crowds of advance TPE ticket holders at Glasgow Central on the afternoon of the 18th looked very mutinous and are unlikely to be railway advocates in the future. Is it the fleet, the resourcing or something else?

 

[AverageJoe]

I believe there has been an issue with having a full force 397 fleet available with some delays in caf repairing damages or faulty units. Apparently a 802 has been used on the west coast to try and strengthen the service.

I also believe there was a fatality on the Cheshire lines over the weekend so I’m not sure if that would have impacted your day depending on when you travelled.

Id say in general TPE have been one of the better performing tocs so im not sure i agree with the flakiness comment. Seems a little dramatic.

 

[hexagon789]

Is Transpennine facing particular issues on the West Coast operation? Just been with them for a couple of days and both my long-distance journeys (Lime St to Glasgow and return) were cancelled throughout; on one of them they refused to allow re-routing via Northern services Liverpool to Preston and insisted we travel on TPE services to Manchester to pick up the Manchester-Glasgow service; there was of course no question of Avanti picking up the crowds given the flakiness of TPE’s offering.

Feels like still very much a failing operation where there isn’t much sympathy from other operators (even in the same group), the crowds of advance TPE ticket holders at Glasgow Central on the afternoon of the 18th looked very mutinous and are unlikely to be railway advocates in the future. Is it the fleet, the resourcing or something else?

Just to say, you don't need their permission to use Northern services; there is blanket automatic acceptance between all 4 DfT TOCs (TPE, Northern, LNER and Southeastern) in the event of delays/cancellations.

This came in during December last year.

 

[Foxcover]

I believe there has been an issue with having a full force 397 fleet available with some delays in caf repairing damages or faulty units. Apparently a 802 has been used on the west coast to try and strengthen the service.

I also believe there was a fatality on the Cheshire lines over the weekend so I’m not sure if that would have impacted your day depending on when you travelled.

Id say in general TPE have been one of the better performing tocs so im not sure i agree with the flakiness comment. Seems a little dramatic.

The flakiness referred to the WCML operation - agree TPE have largely sorted the core transpennine routes. Concern is that when things go wrong on the WCML for TPE there seems to be low resilience, low passenger support and zero collaboration with Avanti, and that’s a problem for the average passenger stuck at Glasgow Central. It’s all one railway now (in practice) so Avanti and Transpennine should be working as closely on the west coast these days, as (most of the time, but not for me this week) Transpennine and Northern do on the core Transpennine.

Just to say, you don't need their permission to use Northern services; there is blanket automatic acceptance between all 4 DfT TOCs (TPE, Northern, LNER and Southeastern) in the event of delays/cancellations.

This came in during December last year.

Thanks - the departure boards at Lime St and the platform staff at Lime St were directing everyone from the cancelled Lime St -Glasgow to the (very overcrowded as a result) TPE south transpennine and to change at Manchester. This wasn’t good advice as they’d have been better joining at Preston off the (on time) Liverpool-Blackpool Northern service where the overcrowded Manchester Airport - Glasgow offloaded a good proportion of passengers. I wonder why they did that? It was a bizarre instruction.

 

[Bevan Price]

I believe there has been an issue with having a full force 397 fleet available with some delays in caf repairing damages or faulty units. Apparently a 802 has been used on the west coast to try and strengthen the service.

I also believe there was a fatality on the Cheshire lines over the weekend so I’m not sure if that would have impacted your day depending on when you travelled.

Id say in general TPE have been one of the better performing tocs so im not sure i agree with the flakiness comment. Seems a little dramatic.

There has been one 802 diagram daily for over a year on Manchester Airport / Edinburgh services.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks - the departure boards at Lime St and the platform staff at Lime St were directing everyone from the cancelled Lime St -Glasgow to the (very overcrowded as a result) TPE south transpennine and to change at Manchester. This wasn’t good advice as they’d have been better joining at Preston off the (on time) Liverpool-Blackpool Northern service where the overcrowded Manchester Airport - Glasgow offloaded a good proportion of passengers.

No, it decidely isn't as using the Northern Liverpool to Blackpool N. up to Preston and a TPE Manchester to Scotland would surely be quicker than going via Manchester.

TPE even mention the acceptance with Northern and LNER on their website, so their frontline staff should really know about it now.

 

[Carlisle]

The flakiness referred to the WCML operation - agree TPE have largely sorted the core transpennine routes.

Maybe they have but the Liverpool-Scotland route still has a very high cancellation rate so it’s clearly far from sorted & you constantly hear excuses about failed trains even though their electric fleet is far younger than Avanti have up this way.

 

[hexagon789]

Maybe they have but the Liverpool-Scotland route still has a very high cancellation rate so it’s clearly far from sorted !

Manchester/Scotland is strongly prioritised over Liverpool/Glasgow; unfortunate maybe but the Manchester route is busier full stop across the year and week.

The Liverpools load more on a seasonal/weekend basis in my experience.

 

[Foxcover]

Maybe they have but the Liverpool-Scotland route still has a very high cancellation rate so it’s clearly far from sorted !

Absolutely - and that’s when you regret getting a TPE rather than an Avanti advance! Caveat emptor for me on the WCML in future!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, it decidedly isn't as using the Northern Liverpool to Blackpool N. up to Preston and a TPE Manchester to Scotland would surely be quicker than going via Manchester.
TPE even mention the acceptance with Northern and LNER on their website, so their frontline staff should really know about it now.

Is there anything to stop a disrupted Liverpool-Scotland passenger choosing to go on TPE to Newcastle and then LNER onwards?
Not so easy for Glasgow but certainly for Edinburgh.

 

[driver9000]

There has been one 802 diagram daily for over a year on Manchester Airport / Edinburgh services.

First one started in December 2021 and now there's a second 802 used as necessary.

 

[hexagon789]

Is there anything to stop a disrupted Liverpool-Scotland passenger choosing to go on TPE to Newcastle and then LNER onwards?
Not so easy for Glasgow but certainly for Edinburgh.

I assume not, under the new arrangement. TPE simply state 'within two hours of your booked service'

 

[RGM654]

Just to say, you don't need their permission to use Northern services; there is blanket automatic acceptance between all 4 DfT TOCs (TPE, Northern, LNER and Southeastern) in the event of delays/cancellations.

This came in during December last year.

How likely are ordinary passengers to know that?

 

[hexagon789]

How likely are ordinary passengers to know that?

That I agree with, but it has been discussed on a few threads in the forum now so that forum members are more likely to know of it if they browse often enough.

 

[800Travel]

Just to say, you don't need their permission to use Northern services; there is blanket automatic acceptance between all 4 DfT TOCs (TPE, Northern, LNER and Southeastern) in the event of delays/cancellations.

This came in during December last year.

Is it definitely even in the case of delays? I knew about it applying in cancellations, but didn't think in a delay it would apply.

Example:

• Book 09:00 TPE from A to B
• Booked service delayed till 09:20
• There is a 09:15 LNER from A to B and it arrives at A before TPE due to the delay

Can the customer holding an advance TPE ticket board the 09:15 LNER, or would they need to wait till 09:20 for the delayed 09:00 TPE?

As far as I was aware, the answer was wait till 09:20 for the delayed 09:00 TPE, but if this is wrong and the acceptance does apply in the case of delays, it'd be helpful to know (and a source to reference in case it's queried by staff if possible please)

EDIT: Here is the source I was going from

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ip-to-keep-customers-moving-during-disruption

From 15 December 2024, LNER, Northern and TransPennine Express will allow customers to travel on each other’s services at no extra cost during any short-notice and on-the-day cancellations – giving people confidence that if services for one operator are impacted, they can travel on any service under public ownership.

This means if a passenger’s booked service on a rail service under public ownership is cancelled, they will be entitled to travel on any other service under public ownership at no extra cost.

Customers holding a ticket valid for that service will be able to travel with any other eligible DfT Operator (DFTO) service that reaches their destination within 2 hours before or after the cancelled service.

 

[hexagon789]

Is it definitely even in the case of delays? I knew about it applying in cancellations, but didn't think in a delay it would apply.

Example:

• Book 09:00 TPE from A to B
• Booked service delayed till 09:20
• There is a 09:15 LNER from A to B and it arrives at A before TPE due to the delay

Can the customer holding an advance TPE ticket board the 09:15 LNER, or would they need to wait till 09:20 for the delayed 09:00 TPE?

As far as I was aware, the answer was wait till 09:20 for the delayed 09:00 TPE, but if this is wrong and the acceptance does apply in the case of delays, it'd be helpful to know (and a source to reference in case it's queried by staff if possible please)

EDIT: Here is the source I was going from

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ip-to-keep-customers-moving-during-disruption

It's cancellations, which is what happened to the OP?

Their Liverpool to Glasgow was cancelled, and instead of using Northern to Preston and TPE from there, they were told to use only TPE and thus go via Manchester.

The policy means they could have used Northern to Preston, picking up a TPE from there without requiring staff permission.

Northern set it out quite nicely on their website, in very clear terms. TPE are rather less precise on their site.

 

[800Travel]

It's cancellations, which is what happened to the OP?

Their Liverpool to Glasgow was cancelled, and instead of using Northern to Preston and TPE from there, they were told to use only TPE and thus go via Manchester.

The policy means they could have used Northern to Preston, picking up a TPE from there without requiring staff permission.

Northern set it out quite nicely on their website, in very clear terms. TPE are rather less precise on their site.

Ok, thank you for clarifying. I was querying as your post said:

in the event of delays/cancellations

rather than just cancellations, which it appears to be

 

[LYuen]

Manchester/Scotland is strongly prioritised over Liverpool/Glasgow; unfortunate maybe but the Manchester route is busier full stop across the year and week.

The Liverpools load more on a seasonal/weekend basis in my experience.

The Manchester service goes to Manchester Airport. As a trolley problem, affecting passengers with a flight connection is less preferable.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Manchester service goes to Manchester Airport. As a trolley problem, affecting passengers with a flight connection is less preferable.

That is a great point. I had never looked at it that way.

 

[185]

...on one of them they refused to allow re-routing via Northern services Liverpool to Preston

Disgraceful. ORR should probably be made aware of this, as they are effectively the same company - DfTO.

DfTO management (in Waterloo) seemed quite surprised at the goings on at TPE, and this kind of nonsense needs tackling.

 

[hexagon789]

Ok, thank you for clarifying. I was querying as your post said:


rather than just cancellations, which it appears to be

Should've said disruption, sorry.

 

[Msq71423]

DfTO management (in Waterloo) seemed quite surprised at the goings on at TPE

I'm just curious if you're able to expand on this?

 

[185]

Just a general observation, in relation to some of the ways of the past under private ownership, continuing under public ownership.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Interestingly, I was off to Manchester today and my 0932 Carlisle -:Manchester TPE was cancelled. I'd planned to jump on the following Avanti at 0954, but I was early enough to catch the 0925 Liverpool Lime Street TPE service, which then had a set of RPIs checking tickets, which I always feel is a bit of a cheek when there's disruption, but that's another story.

What isn't, though, is how shockingly bad they were with customers! The chap opposite me had an Anytime ticket, and a reservation on the 0934. Because he was now going to have to change, he was going to be late, but they told hikmhe couldn't claim Delay Repay as his ticket wasn't "for a specific train, and we've got you to where you want to go even if it is later than you've planned". Another passenger was told she'd have to wait for the next TPE as it was a TPE only ticket*... Seems like there's definitely some training needs done.

*I suggested she double checked with the Conductor on the Northern Blackpool - Manchester airport I was catching, who told her it was fine. Comes to something when even Northern have better trained staff!

 

[185]

I was early enough to catch the 0925 Liverpool Lime Street TPE service, which then had a set of RPIs checking tickets, which I always feel is a bit of a cheek when there's disruption, but that's another story.

What isn't, though, is how shockingly bad they were with customers!

No issues with checking during disruption - fare evaders normally out in force assuming no-one will check. What isn't acceptable is targeting disrupted passengers with valid tickets for missing trains. Reminds me of Peter Kay with the ice cream van at the car crash.

To me, this is a pretty good example of problems inherited from the previous commercial franchise holder - the new Managing Director knows full well but has failed to challenge this department's behaviour. A few of TPE revenue are ex-Carlisle plc agency revenue and it seems that firm's stunning excellence & professionalism has now spread onto an intercity operator.

 

[yorkie]

Interestingly, I was off to Manchester today and my 0932 Carlisle -:Manchester TPE was cancelled. I'd planned to jump on the following Avanti at 0954, but I was early enough to catch the 0925 Liverpool Lime Street TPE service, which then had a set of RPIs checking tickets, which I always feel is a bit of a cheek when there's disruption, but that's another story.

What isn't, though, is how shockingly bad they were with customers! The chap opposite me had an Anytime ticket, and a reservation on the 0934. Because he was now going to have to change, he was going to be late, but they told hikmhe couldn't claim Delay Repay as his ticket wasn't "for a specific train, and we've got you to where you want to go even if it is later than you've planned". Another passenger was told she'd have to wait for the next TPE as it was a TPE only ticket*... Seems like there's definitely some training needs done.

*I suggested she double checked with the Conductor on the Northern Blackpool - Manchester airport I was catching, who told her it was fine. Comes to something when even Northern have better trained staff!

I would encourage you to write to TPE to complain.

Unfortunately the behaviour of those employees does not surprise me, but it should be challenged.

I wouldn't hesitate to challenge any staff who I overheard misadvising customers, and if they continued to argue, to report them to their employer.

Sadly I don't think much would actually be done about it, but we should still make a fuss anyway.

... A few of TPE revenue are ex-Carlisle plc agency revenue and it seems that firm's stunning excellence & professionalism has now spread onto an intercity operator.

Some of the individuals at Carlisle agency are an absolute disgrace and shouldn't be allowed in any customer facing job.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place at companies such as TPE, Northern etc, to ensure that their employees and agency staff are fit for the role and behaving appropriately.

I'm out of the UK at the moment, and reading threads like this reminds me of just how appallingly our railways are run.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To me, this is a pretty good example of problems inherited from the previous commercial franchise holder - the new Managing Director knows full well but has failed to challenge this department's behaviour. A few of TPE revenue are ex-Carlisle plc agency revenue and it seems that firm's stunning excellence & professionalism has now spread onto an intercity operator.

That would certainly explain a lot.

I’ve had to intervene a couple of times when RPIs on TPE were attempting to Penalty Fare passengers who were travelling after a Northern train had been cancelled. Once before the policy change, once after; in the former case, it was massive disruption to Northern and it was a young woman they were quite aggressively picking on.

Management are clearly unable or unwilling to bring their staff under control.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I guess this thread makes the case for the 'Passenger Champion' role clear.

In retrospect, it is slightly unfortunate that the political leaders in the North 25 years ago preferred to have a separate 'Intercity' operator in the region -- perhaps hoping this would lead to better perception of the area -- when the question of what to do with 'Transpennine' belonging to the former Northern Spirit operation and its similarly financially challenged North West sibling was up for grabs. This created on-track competition (= inability to liaise between operators) across a huge area where train service reliability was never great, even as passenger expectation that Government would improve it has only grown every year since the 1997 change of government.

The 'new' ticket acceptance policy should have been applied from the start when the Northern and TP contracts were relet in 2014/15, ie. acknowledging that both TOCs together have a major role in providing passenger rail tansport in the North.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In retrospect, it is slightly unfortunate that the political leaders in the North 25 years ago preferred to have a separate 'Intercity' operator in the region -- perhaps hoping this would lead to better perception of the area -- when the question of what to do with 'Transpennine' belonging to the former Northern Spirit operation and its similarly financially challenged North West sibling was up for grabs

Nothing to do with political leaders in the north.

The ‘express’ routes of both FNW and ATN were merged into the TPE franchise. It was never intended to be a full Intercity service, hence the 185s. The initial TPE franchise also included the routes from Manchester to Barrow, Windermere, and the ‘express’ to Blackpool North. What is now TPE was actually operated 2-hourly by XC using the 4-car Voyagers. When I used it, it tended to be relatively quiet, unlike now. But then you had more ‘express’ trains from Manchester to Preston than you do now, as TPE were running 2tph as well.

It’s changed a lot since then. Blackpool, Barrow, and Windermere have gone back to Northern and journey times have increased. TPE is really now an Intercity operator alongside Avanti.

 

[BG2024]

I had a couple of "fun" experiences with TPE on the WCML this week.

Heading north on Monday I had a similar experience to the OP: Liverpool - Glasgow train cancelled, and the screens at Lime Street were telling passengers to take a full-and-standing 3-car to Manchester. Thankfully I'd already seen the JourneyCheck page saying we could take a Northern to Preston: that was reasonably quiet, as was the ex-Manchester TPE that took us the rest of the way.

Coming back south yesterday evening was more of an adventure, with a points failure at Gretna causing a bit of chaos. I jumped on a very delayed Manchester service to change at Preston, which ended up being the right move as the Liverpool one was very, very late and ended up terminating short. There seems to have been some drama between Glasgow Central staff though: the TPE guard announced (several times) that their service was 60 minutes late due to the points failure, and a further 30 minutes late due to Avanti staff at Glasgow refusing to let TPE passengers onto the platform to board the TPE service. He was clearly not impressed!