Travel Meritocracy

[Butts]

Moderator note: Split from

British Airways

Is it just me or are they now a JOKE of an airline? Just returned this morning from Miami to Edinburgh via Heathrow and it has to be one of the worst ever travelling experiences I've had. It was an A380 for the Miami leg and probably the worst legroom I've had. I couldn't believe this was the...

www.railforums.co.uk

This is every airline nowadays, at least in economy class in Europe, The Americas and MENA.

Ryanair, BA, Emirates, EasyJet, Air France, Lufty, KLM... All functionally identical economy products on identical aircraft.

Anyone who thinks BA are better than EasyJet but worse than Emirates, and that Ryanair are worse than KLM but better than Wizz is just lying to themselves.

This is the price we have paid for a Travel Meritocracy.

Was it worth it ?

 

[Cross City]

This is the price we have paid for a Travel Meritocracy.

Was it worth it ?

Depends entirely on what you want from your travel. Personally, I value price first, convenience of airport location second, and quality of on-board product/service almost last.

Most of my flying is 1-4 hours, I can survive that long without the need of being pandered to by a stewardess in a false attempt to rekindle some delusions of grandeur that flying is still like it was in the 60s.

I actually quite like Ryanair's service, they try and sell you some stuff but if you're obviously not interested they leave you alone. The rest of it is incredibly efficient, cheap, fast and, now they don't fly to that many secondary airports, convenient. They're also by far the safest airline in Europe. What's not to like?

 

[Butts]

Depends entirely on what you want from your travel. Personally, I value price first, convenience of airport location second, and quality of on-board product/service almost last.

Most of my flying is 1-4 hours, I can survive that long without the need of being pandered too by a stewardess in a false attempt to rekindle some delusions of grandeur that flying is still like it was in the 60s.

I actually quite like Ryanair's service, they try and sell you some stuff but if you're obviously not interested they leave you alone. The rest of it is incredibly efficient, cheap, fast and, now they don't fly to that many secondary airports, convenient. They're also by far the safest airline in Europe. What's not to like?

Care to expand upon that ?

 

[Cross City]

Care to expand upon that ?

It's quite a well known piece of trivia. 1000s of flights a week, never had a fatal accident, constant fleet renewal with brand new aircraft, etc.

 

[Butts]

It's quite a well known piece of trivia. 1000s of flights a week, never had a fatal accident, constant fleet renewal with brand new aircraft, etc.

Neither have EasyJet ?

 

[TravelDream]

Neither have EasyJet ?

I think the idea is that Ryanair is a massive airline. Far larger than easyjet (almost double the size) with far more daily flights. And they've never had a fatal crash.

But it's a sort of unprovable metric as no fatal crashes doesn't mean that an airline is the 'safest'.

 

[najaB]

But it's a sort of unprovable metric as no fatal crashes doesn't mean that an airline is the 'safest'.

A question for the mathematicians - is zero out of a thousand different to zero out of two thousand?

 

[Cross City]

A question for the mathematicians - is zero out of a thousand different to zero out of two thousand?

Proportionally, yes.

 

[TravelDream]

A question for the mathematicians - is zero out of a thousand different to zero out of two thousand?

I meant just because an airline has X amount of flights without a fatal crash, it doesn't mean it's safe. They might just be lucky.

But I think it would definitely mathematically work out as safe even if both have 0% fatal crashes (not a mathematician).

 

[SN_OCC]

FR operated 3036 flights yesterday : Zero fatal accidents, One hull loss
U2 operated 1139 yesterday : Zero fatal accidents, Zero hull losses

There are a few full service worldwide who have never had the fatal accident. Some have had hull losses (EK, QR, EY) but no pax fatalities.

When it comes to overall safety, for the (U)LCC's FR is 3rd in the world and indeed 1st in Europe. U2 is 2nd in Europe and 4th in the world.

For full service it is NZ, QF, then CX, QR and EK in joint 3rd.

BA is 15th. LH is 18th. KLM isn't in the document I have......

The metrics are much more complicated than just not having fatal accidents/hull losses. Also measured is fleet age, number of incidents and the ongoing training offered to crew. If the airline is from a USOAP compliant country.

It also looks at the financials for the airline. Thinking is that a less profitable business might shave the corners off maintenance etc.

It is not just as simple as "nobody crashed this year".

Full service airlines now after the COVID times are starting to invest in the on board product again, and aircraft are going in for cabin refresh etc. You mention the BA 388's - they will go for new cabins in 2026. Hopefully by that time the reliability issues they have with the jets will have been resolved. Lufthansa have the Allegris cabin product which is rolling out on the 359/788 (although is delayed on the 788 as the FAA are refusing to certify the seating).

Premium Economy is actually with most profitable cabin for most airlines. Even more than J class. Pax are willing to pay a bit extra for slightly nicer seats and drinkable wine

It will take a few years but the European airlines will catch up with the far east carriers on service and product offering. But it depends what you want from your experience.

 

[TravelDream]

The metrics are much more complicated than just not having fatal accidents/hull losses. Also measured is fleet age, number of incidents and the ongoing training offered to crew. If the airline is from a USOAP compliant country.

I think whatever source you're using has created its own artificial metrics - i.e. it's totally arbitrary.

How does one measure the ongoing training offered to crew? Nobody can tell the quality other than the regulator who ensures (or should ensure) it meets minimum standards. And it can be very human. Every airline is going to have good and bad instructors and examiners - that's simply a fact of human nature - but we have no idea on how they manage that.

And how does that regulation work in places where the regulator and the airline are one and the same (i.e. the Middle East and GCAA/ Emirates Group or QCAA/Qatar etc.). Now, I'd have no issue getting on either of those airlines right now, but it's misguided to think the level of regulatory oversight is the same as it is in places like the UK.

Fleet age can be a indicator, but it's certainly not everything. It says nothing about maintenance and how well taken care of the aircraft are. There's every possibility that a 40 year old aircraft flying today could be in better shape than a 5 year old one.

And passengers aren't always good at telling a new plane from an old. There will be passengers tomorrow getting on a 30 year old Jet2 737-300. How many will say it is 30 or even 20 years old? None, I reckon. The planes are in very nice internal condition. Conversely, I've been on a three year old Air India 787-8 (a while ago now) and it could have easily have been 20 years old on internal condition.

Even fatal accidents/ hull loses can be a bit arbitrary. Look at poor Malaysian Airlines in 2014.
One plane shot down by the Russians and one likely crashed by a suicidal pilot. A terrible year.
Nothing that says they are an unsafe airline (arguably you could say flying over Ukraine wasn't wise, but all airlines were doing it. There were BA and Singapore airlines planes just behind the Malaysian one). But terrible metrics nonetheless.

The truth is ranking airlines as the safest is a bit silly.

Is easyjet or Ryanair safest? Or BA? - They are all very safe airlines to fly and any metric used it totally arbitrary.

Traveling by air on an 'unsafe' airline is still remarkably safe and still statistically safer than the car ride to the airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are still differences. In my book Wizz is the lowest of the low - they are just sloppy and the crews are poor in my experience, eg I sat opposite one in the exit row who was playing with her phone during final approach and openly said she hated her job.

Legroom is also very poor indeed on their older aircraft - the pitch may nominally be better than easyJet but the seat backs are quite thick. Base to back would be a better measure.

 

[johncrossley]

I actually quite like Ryanair's service, they try and sell you some stuff but if you're obviously not interested they leave you alone.

This aspect is not mentioned enough. I just want to sit in my seat and be left alone. In this respect, First Class train travel is *worse" than Standard Class.

If the fare and airports are the same, I would choose Ryanair over BA.

 

[Harpo]

I’ve been using EasyJet in reasonable comfort on 3-4 hour flights but had a very uncomfortable flight recently where a shorter seat pitch (A380?) wedged me in from knees to hips. I also noticed that those trying to nap could only do that by cushioning their forehead on the seat in front.

Looks like it won’t take environmental concerns to reduce my air travel.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It will take a few years but the European airlines will catch up with the far east carriers on service and product offering.

The truth is that things are going the other way: the middle east and far east carriers are getting worse.

Emirates has a fantastic reputation yet they were the first ones to go 10-abreast in the 777; at the time, everyone else was 9-abreast.

Stuff you used to get for free are now charged for: seat selection but also the little hidden niceties such as celebration cakes. The honeymoon cake they gave me for free in 2016 now costs USD50. The extra legroom seat they gave me for free in 2016 now costs USD100. You get the picture.

Qatar is the same. Their cheapest business class fares now don't even give you access to the lounge.

As for short haul, they're all much of a muchness now. The 'hard product' is pretty much identical across all the airlines, at least in economy. Even BA use the slimline Recaro seats in the rear half of some of their aircraft and with very similar seat pitches of between 28" and 30" depending on aircraft type and seat row.

In terms of customer service on board I'd say BA and Jet2 are both streets ahead of EasyJet and Ryanair. In terms of customer service when things go wrong, I'd say EasyJet and Jet2 are streets ahead of the others. I really can't fault EasyJet's repayment of UK/EU261 right of care reimbursements; my experience has been no quibble and repaid within a couple of weeks.

had a very uncomfortable flight recently where a shorter seat pitch (A380?) wedged me in from knees to hips.

The new A321neo has 40 rows at 28" pitch with EasyJet and Jet2. By comparison, BA's A321neo only has 37 rows with a 30" pitch.

The worst for seat pitch on EasyJet are the old A319s though. Nominally they have a bigger pitch but the seat backs are massive so, overall, you get less room.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

This aspect is not mentioned enough. I just want to sit in my seat and be left alone. In this respect, First Class train travel is *worse" than Standard Class.

In economy BA leave you alone too.

In Club Europe they don't but, given that the whole point of Club Europe is the attentive service and the complimentary champagne, I'd be rather annoyed if they weren't attentive.

 

[TravelDream]

Emirates has a fantastic reputation yet they were the first ones to go 10-abreast in the 777; at the time, everyone else was 9-abreast.

Emirates are/ were great for many things, but their hard product has been poor and well below standard for quite some time.

They were 3-4-3 in economy and 2-3-2 in business when many of their competitors at the time were 3-3-3 and 1-2-1 in business (angled so not a direct comparison, but every had aisle access vs. half).

Going from their A380 fleet to the 777 was a big downgrade.

I think it shows the power of marketing.

Dubai is 'glamourous' and Emirates the 'most luxurious' carrier.

Back on planet reality, things aren't quite so simple.

 

[westv]

The new A321neo has 40 rows at 28" pitch with EasyJet and Jet2. By comparison, BA's A321neo only has 37 rows with a 30" pitch.

I am seeing loads of complaints on FB about the uncomfortable Jet2 seats. 28" is certainly a downgrade from the 30" 737-800 and 31" 737-300.

 

[simonw]

FR operated 3036 flights yesterday : Zero fatal accidents, One hull loss
U2 operated 1139 yesterday : Zero fatal accidents, Zero hull losses

There are a few full service worldwide who have never had the fatal accident. Some have had hull losses (EK, QR, EY) but no pax fatalities.

When it comes to overall safety, for the (U)LCC's FR is 3rd in the world and indeed 1st in Europe. U2 is 2nd in Europe and 4th in the world.

For full service it is NZ, QF, then CX, QR and EK in joint 3rd.

BA is 15th. LH is 18th. KLM isn't in the document I have......

The metrics are much more complicated than just not having fatal accidents/hull losses. Also measured is fleet age, number of incidents and the ongoing training offered to crew. If the airline is from a USOAP compliant country.

It also looks at the financials for the airline. Thinking is that a less profitable business might shave the corners off maintenance etc.

It is not just as simple as "nobody crashed this year".

Full service airlines now after the COVID times are starting to invest in the on board product again, and aircraft are going in for cabin refresh etc. You mention the BA 388's - they will go for new cabins in 2026. Hopefully by that time the reliability issues they have with the jets will have been resolved. Lufthansa have the Allegris cabin product which is rolling out on the 359/788 (although is delayed on the 788 as the FAA are refusing to certify the seating).

Premium Economy is actually with most profitable cabin for most airlines. Even more than J class. Pax are willing to pay a bit extra for slightly nicer seats and drinkable wine

It will take a few years but the European airlines will catch up with the far east carriers on service and product offering. But it depends what you want from your experience.

What do all those initials mean

 

[Tetchytyke]

What do all those initials mean

They are airline identifier codes.

In order:
FR - Ryanair
U2 - EasyJet
EK - Emirates
QR - Qatar Airways
EY - Etihad
NZ - Air New Zealand
QF - Qantas
CX - Cathay Pacific
BA - British Airways
LH - Lufthansa

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2025 ==

I am seeing loads of complaints on FB about the uncomfortable Jet2 seats. 28" is certainly a downgrade from the 30" 737-800 and 31" 737-300.

I'm not surprised. The seats feel narrower too.

I was on one of the Jet2 A321neo in 2023 from Lanzarote. I had an exit row with the extra legroom and even that was grim.

 

[simonw]

They are airline identifier codes.

In order:
FR - Ryanair
U2 - EasyJet
EK - Emirates
QR - Qatar Airways
EY - Etihad
NZ - Air New Zealand
QF - Qantas
CX - Cathay Pacific
BA - British Airways
LH - Lufthansa

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2025 ==


I'm not surprised. The seats feel narrower too.

I was on one of the Jet2 A321neo in 2023 from Lanzarote. I had an exit row with the extra legroom and even that was grim.

Thanks, I know the original post wasn't yours, but forum rules state that such things should be spelled out in full.

 

[gswindale]

Other option would be to Google them, they're not rocket science and you might feel good that you didn't need to be spoon fed?

So Fuel Remaining
Lockheed U-2 aircraft then?

Quick Response?

 

[mpthomson]

Moderator note: Split from

British Airways

Is it just me or are they now a JOKE of an airline? Just returned this morning from Miami to Edinburgh via Heathrow and it has to be one of the worst ever travelling experiences I've had. It was an A380 for the Miami leg and probably the worst legroom I've had. I couldn't believe this was the...

www.railforums.co.uk

This is the price we have paid for a Travel Meritocracy.

Was it worth it ?

Worth noting that other leagacy operators use a seat pitch of 31" on their A380s in economy, just as BA do. Those that don't use 32", so there's nothing particularly unusual about BA.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2025 ==

I am seeing loads of complaints on FB about the uncomfortable Jet2 seats. 28" is certainly a downgrade from the 30" 737-800 and 31" 737-300.

However it's not quite as simple as that. Jet2's seats are notably thin. The 28" pitch makes them feel just like Ryanair or Easyjet's deeper seats, in reality they don't feel any more cramped than that. The 30" 737-800s have noticeably large legroom for a low cost carrier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However it's not quite as simple as that. Jet2's seats are notably thin. The 28" pitch makes them feel just like Ryanair or Easyjet's deeper seats, in reality they don't feel any more cramped than that.

As always, depends on the aircraft. With EasyJet only the older A319 aircraft have the deeper seats, EasyJet have refitted their A320 and A321 with slimline Recaro seats. There's not really any difference between the Recaros on EasyJet (and on BA A320 aircraft) and the Acro seats on Jet2.

According to Aerolopa it is 29.5" on Jet2's B737-800, which is the same as Ryanair, it's just the B737-300 which has better pitch. I suspect that's because they'd need an extra cabin crew member if they put any more seats in the B737-300.

 

[JGurney]

This is the price we have paid for a Travel Meritocracy.

Should that read 'mediocracy'?

 

[westv]

Worth noting that other leagacy operators use a seat pitch of 31" on their A380s in economy, just as BA do. Those that don't use 32", so there's nothing particularly unusual about BA.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2025 ==


However it's not quite as simple as that. Jet2's seats are notably thin. The 28" pitch makes them feel just like Ryanair or Easyjet's deeper seats, in reality they don't feel any more cramped than that. The 30" 737-800s have noticeably large legroom for a low cost carrier.

That's the thing though, if you regularly use Jet2, then the change is going to be more noticeable.