Ideas for park and ride facilities in the Peak District National Park?

[Trainman40083]

I read this thread because I have a great deal of affection for Bakewell and have an interest in bus operation and Hulleys in particular. I ask myself what is the point of Hulleys? If it were a pet I'd put it down out of it's misery. Again, operational difficulties has seen 4 services cancelled on 1 day. I understand the difficulties of bus operation, shortage of spares, driver recruitment, low passenger numbers, low reimbursement rates, capital requirements etc. but I cannot but wonder that if this was a metropolitan area, it would be sorted.
So, so sad. And the PI will I suspect achieve little for the passengers.

mods note - split from this thread

Maybe an increased ENCTS reimbursement and a tourist tax is the solution. You go by bus, else you pay loads of money to take your car.

 

[SLC001]

Car parking is already excessive and inflexible. A tourist tax has to be used for a particular purpose too and I doubt buses would figure high on that priority list. And would money solve the problems such as spares, driver shortages etc.

 

[tocguard]

Maybe an increased ENCTS reimbursement and a tourist tax is the solution. You go by bus, else you pay loads of money to take your car.

The biggest issue the Peak District faces is the lack of park and ride schemes. Similar areas both urban and rural that face high levels of traffic have long since had these facilities. York as an urban example, and the Lake District as a rural example. Both have multiple park and ride site. The Peak District doesn't have a single one.

There are some established routes that offer direct services to where people want to be, ie Transpeak, 6.1, 170, 218, 65 even. With properly thought out park and ride sites, these services could do much better and developed into a more frequent offering. Each of those services is in receipt of various sums of funding which could well not be necessary if passenger numbers can be raised. A direct service from Chesterfield (X70) and a direct service from Sheffield to Bakewell could be funded by a successful P&R scheme.

For years, all affected authorities and major tourist stakeholders have sat by and done nothing. By far one of the easiest options would be for a collaborative approach through Chatsworth to offer a park and ride scheme. There must be a way to make it work for everyone.

 

[Tetchytyke]

major tourist stakeholders have sat by and done nothing. By far one of the easiest options would be for a collaborative approach through Chatsworth to offer a park and ride scheme.

Chatsworth can’t cope with the number of visitors arriving by car who are simply visiting Chatsworth, never mind having additional car parking for people actually going to Bakewell, etc.

 

[tocguard]

Chatsworth can’t cope with the number of visitors arriving by car who are simply visiting Chatsworth, never mind having additional car parking for people actually going to Bakewell, etc.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they could alleviate their parking problems by being a major stakeholders in a Park and Ride plan.

They recently bought Peak Village shopping village which tbqh isn't that popular but has a decent size car park and accompanying land to more than double the existing car park.

Then there's DFS a little further along at Darley with a car park far too big for their needs. A little joined up thinking could easily have a small bus P&R connecting multiple car parks from Matlock enroute to Bakewell via Peak Village, Chatsworth Garden Centre, the House, the farm shop etc

 

[JKP]

The biggest issue the Peak District faces is the lack of park and ride schemes. Similar areas both urban and rural that face high levels of traffic have long since had these facilities. York as an urban example, and the Lake District as a rural example. Both have multiple park and ride site. The Peak District doesn't have a single one.

There are some established routes that offer direct services to where people want to be, ie Transpeak, 6.1, 170, 218, 65 even. With properly thought out park and ride sites, these services could do much better and developed into a more frequent offering. Each of those services is in receipt of various sums of funding which could well not be necessary if passenger numbers can be raised. A direct service from Chesterfield (X70) and a direct service from Sheffield to Bakewell could be funded by a successful P&R scheme.

For years, all affected authorities and major tourist stakeholders have sat by and done nothing. By far one of the easiest options would be for a collaborative approach through Chatsworth to offer a park and ride scheme. There must be a way to make it work for everyone.

Lake District park and ride? I have never seen one and visit the area at least once a year. Stagecoach run a relatively comprehensive network in the Lakes on a commercial basis but have never used it as I need a car to get there and have not had too much bother getting around. But then I tend to go in the Autumn out with school holidays.

 

[mangad]

Lake District park and ride? I have never seen one and visit the area at least once a year. Stagecoach run a relatively comprehensive network in the Lakes on a commercial basis but have never used it as I need a car to get there and have not had too much bother getting around. But then I tend to go in the Autumn out with school holidays.

It's not park and ride but there is a "Park and Explore" scheme using existing car parks and existing buses, linked with a combined bus and car parking ticket.

Peak District could do with something anyway, although coordinating it is going to be harder due to there being many operators, such as Hulleys, to deal with

 

[tocguard]

Lake District park and ride? I have never seen one and visit the area at least once a year. Stagecoach run a relatively comprehensive network in the Lakes on a commercial basis but have never used it as I need a car to get there and have not had too much bother getting around. But then I tend to go in the Autumn out with school holidays.

Yeah it's not park and ride per se but utilises existing bus services which could be done in Derbyshire with option to build and expand the idea. There is a single ticket aimed at getting full car loads parked and on to buses all day. Basically think of it like park up and your fee gives you a Derbyshire Wayfarer for the day.

Park and Explore the Lake District | Stagecoach

Buy a park and explore ticket for the Lake District. With Park and Explore, a family of 5 can park a car all day and travel by bus in the Central Lakes zone for just £18. There is car parking in Ambleside, Bowness, Grasmere, Comiston and Hawkshead.

www.stagecoachbus.com

 

[Teapot42]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they could alleviate their parking problems by being a major stakeholders in a Park and Ride plan.

They recently bought Peak Village shopping village which tbqh isn't that popular but has a decent size car park and accompanying land to more than double the existing car park.

Two problems there, first you are already well in to the park by the time you get there, second there is very limited scope for buses from there to Chatsworth due to the hump back bridge. While TM used to use older deckers over it, it seems now the only option is a Solo. Might be handy for Bakewell, but if you are coming from that direction you have the Agricultural Centre carpark anyway which is a decent size.

In the past, Hulleys have pushed for a P&R scheme, but the big problem is it really needs the Peak Park to coordinate it, and they seem dysfunctional at best. Not helped by a tiny budget, but they seem to spend more energy fighting businesses which are attracting tourists rather than doing useful things to help.

Personally, I think Chesterfield - as the entry point off the motorway for a lot of tourists - would be an ideal point for a Park and Ride, but it's going to need subsidy to get it off the ground. It's also going to need a steep increase in parking costs and a ban on parking in frankly stupid places which is actually enforced.

We've pretty much given up going to the Peak District as you spend hours trying to get parked yet bus links are poor or simply don't exist.

From what I understand from earlier in this thread and Wikipedia, Go Coach has been sold back to its original owner Austin Blackburn. Gov.uk has him appointed as director from 13th January this year. However Alf Crofts (Hulleys) is still listed as an active director, so I get the impression they're not quite as unravelled as may be thought.

AIUI there are things to unravel regarding the sale so they are both directors until it's all sorted out. Maybe best to think of it a bit like a divorce where you've split but not yet decided who gets to keep the curtains.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Peak District could do with something anyway, although coordinating it is going to be harder due to there being many operators, such as Hulleys, to deal with

There’s already the Wayfarers- GM and Derbyshire- so adding another ticket shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

Question is whether the park authority have the staff and money to do something.

 

[Killingworth]

Currently there are several car parks beside Chesterfield station with plenty of space. Demolition sites awaiting redevelopment in addition to station and council parks. Just beside the A61 for access from M1.

 

[tocguard]

Two problems there, first you are already well in to the park by the time you get there, second there is very limited scope for buses from there to Chatsworth due to the hump back bridge. While TM used to use older deckers over it, it seems now the only option is a Solo. Might be handy for Bakewell, but if you are coming from that direction you have the Agricultural Centre carpark anyway which is a decent size.

In the past, Hulleys have pushed for a P&R scheme, but the big problem is it really needs the Peak Park to coordinate it, and they seem dysfunctional at best. Not helped by a tiny budget, but they seem to spend more energy fighting businesses which are attracting tourists rather than doing useful things to help.

Personally, I think Chesterfield - as the entry point off the motorway for a lot of tourists - would be an ideal point for a Park and Ride, but it's going to need subsidy to get it off the ground. It's also going to need a steep increase in parking costs and a ban on parking in frankly stupid places which is actually enforced.

We've pretty much given up going to the Peak District as you spend hours trying to get parked yet bus links are poor or simply don't exist.


AIUI there are things to unravel regarding the sale so they are both directors until it's all sorted out. Maybe best to think of it a bit like a divorce where you've split but not yet decided who gets to keep the curtains.

Not really. I'm talking about several sites and routes being incorporated into a bigger operation so therfore it really doesn't matter who's route it is if already on an established corridor. The example I was giving was a minibus type service purposefully serving chatsworths various sites in close proximity with both Bakewell to interconnect and Rowsley/Darley/Matlock, none of which those 3 are within the Peak District.

Obviously you'd have more trunk routes from further afield such as hopefully a direct service like the X70 was from Chesterfield and like another poster has suggested, via a site that could easily be developed. Also a direct service from Sheffield area as the 218 isn't that direct. Transpeak is direct but maybe could be complimented to half hourly in summer with a purpose provided P&R service. Not going further than Bakewell say would help avoid the congestion caused on TP at Matlock Bath. The biggest problem is the gap in railway between Buxton and Matlock.

 

[mangad]

There’s already the Wayfarers- GM and Derbyshire- so adding another ticket shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

Question is whether the park authority have the staff and money to do something.

National parks across the board have faced years of funding cuts. Whilst they try, they are not set up for success in this area.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

One of the particular challenges for the Peak District is that the destinations are particularly diverse. Aside from Chatsworth House, and Bakewell (the only town in the National Park), there are 63 villages (and countless start/end points for walks). Park and Ride can clearly work well for cities, and one can imagine it being relatively viable for linear parks (eg Langdale valley in the Lakes). But where destinations are thinly distributed across a wide area, the economics will be bleak.

Until and unless you can offer the prospective public transport user a frequent service between the places they want to go, you aren't going to achieve any meaningful modal shift. Ideas like providing a "hub" at Hope station could just work if you had cheap trains every 30 minutes feeding into cheap buses in every direction. But how many families with use of a car are really going to choose an infrequent train into central Manchester, an hourly (relatively expensive) train to Hope, and then have to choose between a narrow range of places they can reach by infrequent bus services?

 

[richardderby]

The biggest problem is the gap in railway between Buxton and Matlock.

what a short sighted closure that was, although if it was not for Derbyshire Council having its offices at Matlock, the Matlock branch would have fallen too..

 

[MetalMicky]

Although reinstating Matlock to Buxton is a non-starter, it really should be doable to bring back Matlock to Bakewell with a re-sited station alongside the Agricultural centre, possibly dual operation with Peak Rail, similar to the Whitby to Grosmont arrangement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bus between Hathersage station and Stanage Edge might help, it's a proper Mecca for climbers and walkers and is always busy.

 

[Teapot42]

A bus between Hathersage station and Stanage Edge might help, it's a proper Mecca for climbers and walkers and is always busy.

Hulleys used to run one a long time back, but I gather it didn't do enough to be commercial and didn't get funding. Curbar Edge is another one which could do with a bus service as the parking there is stupid since Covid. Indeed, I think that road should be made one-way as trying to get two way traffic past lines of parked cars is impossible. Making it one way would also work with a bus shuttle to Longshaw.

Although reinstating Matlock to Buxton is a non-starter, it really should be doable to bring back Matlock to Bakewell with a re-sited station alongside the Agricultural centre, possibly dual operation with Peak Rail, similar to the Whitby to Grosmont arrangement.

There is a gap around Rowsley where the bridge on Church Lane has been removed. Not to mention the building on the trackbed just north of Rowsley station.

Personally, I wonder if some sort of road/rail vehicle, similar to that used in Japan on a few rural routes, couldn't be an answer here. You could get most of the way to Buxton using either existing or old trackbed, with just a few bits where you'd need to come off on to the road. Of course you'd need some upgrade to the existing trail to separate this from the foot / cycle traffic safely.

 

[Llandudno]

Some proper marketing of the existing network and the various tickets available would help.

There is no on bus (or rail station posters) advertising for Derbyshire Wayfarers or the excellent, but highly secretive PlusBus ticket which for only £6 (£3.95 railcard holders) gives unlimited travel on ALL* buses in the Peak District when bolted onto a rail ticket at either Matlock or Buxton.

* The PlusBus Website states that PlusBus tickets are not valid on High Peak Buses but I have contacted High Peak, who operate the TransPeak (Buxton-Matlock-Derby) bus and they have confirmed that PlusBus tickets are definitely valid. I contacted PlusBus at least three months ago to advise of them of this, but they still haven’t bothered to update their website!

So before employing loads of expensive consultants and experts to suggest various solutions, which very few, if any will ever to come fruition let’s just spend a few quid actually promoting what we have got, as summer is on its way!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hulleys used to run one a long time back, but I gather it didn't do enough to be commercial and didn't get funding.

These things work better in an integrated system as very rarely will they be able to charge high enough fares to make them commercially viable, but a free bus may increase rail ticket sales. In a properly integrated system that money would be in the same pot.

 

[Killingworth]

I spend a lot of time in the Peak District. It's busy on nice days, especially at weekends and during school holidays. I was out today, quite pleasant, and it was quiet.

Buses have been tried to Stanage and almost up to Slippery Stones at the top of the Derwent Reservoir. The open top services seemed busy when lots of people were there but on cold and wet days they ran empty. The bus connecting Edale with Chapel and Buxton hasn't done well.

There aren't enough people on most days to make these services anywhere near commercially viable.

As a walker I want to start and finish on a footpath that starts near a road. So does almost everyone else, and they want to start from home.

Public transport enthusiasts, especially those living in conurbations with frequent bus and train services, find this hard to grasp. I've been a volunteer conducting visitor surveys. They come from all over the country. Simple question, where's home? Sheffield. Could be Halfway, Stannington, Chapeltown, Parson Cross, Woodseats or many other parts requiring different buses to the centre of the city before getting out into the Peak. Similar for those coming from Manchester, Nottingham, Birmingham.

Encouraging use of buses and trains is great. It's totally dispiriting when Northern can't run reliably their hourly Hope Valley stopping service. Or TM travel put on a single decker 218 to Chatsworth on events days when in days gone by duplicates would be run.

 

[AndyHudds]

I spend a lot of time in the Peak District. It's busy on nice days, especially at weekends and during school holidays. I was out today, quite pleasant, and it was quiet.

Buses have been tried to Stanage and almost up to Slippery Stones at the top of the Derwent Reservoir. The open top services seemed busy when lots of people were there but on cold and wet days they ran empty. The bus connecting Edale with Chapel and Buxton hasn't done well.

There aren't enough people on most days to make these services anywhere near commercially viable.

As a walker I want to start and finish on a footpath that starts near a road. So does almost everyone else, and they want to start from home.

Public transport enthusiasts, especially those living in conurbations with frequent bus and train services, find this hard to grasp. I've been a volunteer conducting visitor surveys. They come from all over the country. Simple question, where's home? Sheffield. Could be Halfway, Stannington, Chapeltown, Parson Cross, Woodseats or many other parts requiring different buses to the centre of the city before getting out into the Peak. Similar for those coming from Manchester, Nottingham, Birmingham.

Encouraging use of buses and trains is great. It's totally dispiriting when Northern can't run reliably their hourly Hope Valley stopping service. Or TM travel put on a single decker 218 to Chatsworth on events days when in days gone by duplicates would be run.

The northern part of the park is extremely difficult to get to especially. I live in Huddersfield and as a keen walker without a car, the Peak District takes some planning to do walks. The Longdendale Valley has no buses at all except the once a week Holmfirth to Glossop service which runs on a Wednesday now I think. I did a walk in the valley last summer so it was a train to Stalybridge, then the 237 I think it was from Stalybridge to Hadfield then a walk along the TPT in to the valley.

Langsett, it's either train to Penistone then a 2 miles walk along the TPT or the 59 or 89 from Holmfirth on a Wednesday or a Thursday only, then you have to walk back to Penistone because there's no way you could fit a 10 mile walk in before the return service.

It's a difficult situation with no obvious answers. Walking in the South Pennines is much more convenient by public transport along the Calder Valley.

 

[Teapot42]

The bus connecting Edale with Chapel and Buxton hasn't done well.

Interesting that DCC are happy to subsidise that, plus the 61 from New Mills to Glossop week-days, but wouldn't subsidise the Sunday 257 which probably carried more passengers.

There aren't enough people on most days to make these services anywhere near commercially viable.

As Bletchleyite points out, there is a bigger overall gain to be had if services such as these are done properly, but it needs organisation. As I've commented elsewhere, we avoid places like Castleton, Hathersage etc these days as you can never get parked and the bus options are poor. If there was a direct Chesterfield to Castleton bus we'd likely use it, meaning more of our money goes in to local businesses.

Every car that drives away because they can't find a parking spot is lost money in the local economy. Put those parking spots on the outskirts of the park and bus people in, or find places within the park where parking can be provided without too much detriment to the landscape and bus from there.

As a walker I want to start and finish on a footpath that starts near a road. So does almost everyone else, and they want to start from home.

I don't go walking much these days, but when I did I found using the car wasn't that convenient as it meant either out and back or circular walks were the main options. This is where a P&R could work, drop you car on the edge of the park, bus to the start of your walk then bus back to the car afterwards.

Problem is of course you need buses both early and late as some want to be there at the crack of dawn, while others (and I fall in this camp) prefer evening walks.

Public transport enthusiasts, especially those living in conurbations with frequent bus and train services, find this hard to grasp.

Having access to a car at the same time makes going out in to the countryside easier, but also more limiting. The rise of Instagram tourism means a fairly large chunk of visitors just want to visit well known spots and have their photo taken. Targetted services could help with that market. But for those who want to actually get out deep in to the countryside, there is precious little these days to help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As Bletchleyite points out, there is a bigger overall gain to be had if services such as these are done properly, but it needs organisation. As I've commented elsewhere, we avoid places like Castleton, Hathersage etc these days as you can never get parked and the bus options are poor. If there was a direct Chesterfield to Castleton bus we'd likely use it, meaning more of our money goes in to local businesses.

This issue occurs in Cornwall as well - there are plenty of places that don't have a direct bus to a railway station, which limits tourist/daytripper appeal because bus connections in places with heavy traffic can be a bit dicey. Those bus services are great for locals (and the network in Cornwall is quite well run) but it would put some off.

A similar thing might occur in the Lakes with having to change at Ambleside from the 555 onto the 516 Langdale Rambler (and I think the Coniston bus). While that service is fairly well used, I think it'd be better used if there were more direct Windermere services timed to connect with the trains. The setup there is pretty good integration-wise for the UK though, walk out of the station and there are the buses. A short wait there isn't however a major problem due to the presence of Booths which give the station perhaps the best facilities (toilets, cafe and retail) for any single-platform rural terminus!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Longdendale Valley has no buses at all except the once a week Holmfirth to Glossop service which runs on a Wednesday now I think.

Think the 351 Holmfirth->Glossop bus actually runs Fridays (was once Saturdays), but, as you say, just the one day of operation per week. Unless, of course, it's changed again very recently.

 

[Snex]

Instead of doing public bus services which might have passengers or might not have passengers surely a better option would be coach trips? So you'd have day trips to Castleton from somewhere like Sheffield or Manchester, or what not, rather than trying to run a public bus service which might or might not have passengers.

Obviously you'd need to shift the vibe that coaches are for 'old people' though. What the coach does between the trips, is open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Instead of doing public bus services which might have passengers or might not have passengers surely a better option would be coach trips? So you'd have day trips to Castleton from somewhere like Sheffield or Manchester, or what not, rather than trying to run a public bus service which might or might not have passengers.

Obviously you'd need to shift the vibe that coaches are for 'old people' though. What the coach does between the trips, is open.

Coach and rail/bus are different markets. Coach trips are typically booked in advance due to the fixed capacity, whereas most people taking a rail day out from Manchester/Sheffield to the Peak will be doing so on a whim because the weather is nice, or with loose planning intending not to go if it's raining.

National Express do seem to be doing quite well now at having gone upmarket to avoid Flix killing them on price, but that doesn't mean it's really a replacement for good walk-up transport links. Again looking at the Lakes I'm sure you can do a coach day trip from Manchester/Liverpool to there with various coach companies, but that doesn't mean there isn't a rail (or car) market for less planned stuff.

 

[Snex]

Coach and rail/bus are different markets. Coach trips are typically booked in advance due to the fixed capacity, whereas most people taking a rail day out from Manchester/Sheffield to the Peak will be doing so on a whim because the weather is nice, or with loose planning intending not to go if it's raining.

National Express do seem to be doing quite well now at having gone upmarket to avoid Flix killing them on price, but that doesn't mean it's really a replacement for good walk-up transport links. Again looking at the Lakes I'm sure you can do a coach day trip from Manchester/Liverpool to there with various coach companies, but that doesn't mean there isn't a rail (or car) market for less planned stuff.

There's nothing stopping you booking a coach on a whim either though. It's just more the local companies not offering that feature if anything.

You could easily have a system in place where you can book an hour in advance from say Manchester and if you fancy a trip to the Peak District have a look in the morning and see what's available and choose on a whim where you end up going. If anything it would make it more interesting as you could go to different places and mix it up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing stopping you booking a coach on a whim either though. It's just more the local companies not offering that feature if anything.

There is if it's full. And if you don't run your coaches at least reasonably close to capacity you're not going to make a profit.

A train with a frequent shuttle bus connection effectively doesn't get full in a meaningful sense.

 

[Teapot42]

There's nothing stopping you booking a coach on a whim either though. It's just more the local companies not offering that feature if anything.

It's tricky to resource though.

Similar things are popular in Taiwan, the likes of Klook or KKDay offer trips to the popular scenic areas, but if not enough sign up they'll cancel them.

Not only does that disappoint those who did sign up, but it's tricky for the operator to know how far in advance to set the cancellation deadline. If you leave it until an hour or so before as you suggest then drivers will have to have been rostered, other passengers might already have started travelling to meet the coach. If you cancel the day before or a couple of days before you risk missing out on a late surge of bookings.

This might benefit a sort of 'pool' system instead, where you register interest and get notified a few days ahead if it's going ahead. The operator can then choose an appropriate vehicle based on the number of bookings.

As an aside, one area where I think someone could profit would be luxury minicoach trips in to the Peak District. Especially aimed at the Chinese market, get a small coach or sprinter type conversion, 1+1 seating, Mandarin speaking guide and the ability to tailor the itinerary. But that's getting a bit OT for this thread!