Split ticketing delay repay trick, or fraud?

[bananas]

I often use split ticketing, via a route which typically has quite poor performance. If my journey is A to C changing at B, and my split purchase gives me one ticket from A to B and another from B to C, and then my A to B train is delayed by >15 minutes, but not by enough to make me miss my connection, and I still get to C on time, can I still claim delay repay on the A-B ticket? This scenario has happened to me two or three times, and I've never actually tried it because it seemed a bit dodgy, and I didn't want to risk committing fraud for the sake of what is usually about £3. But would this be allowed, in theory, and in practice? Surely if I buy the two tickets totally independently, it should be allowed; but if I get them as part of one transaction e.g. via Trainsplit, maybe then it's not allowed?

If it is allowed, then I'll get (on average) a secret extra discount on your poorly-performing journeys

 

[alholmes]

You’ve arrived at your intended destination on time, so you wouldn’t be eligible for delay repay.

Whilst you may get repaid if you put in a claim for A-B, you run the risk of being caught eventually if / when a train operator does a trawl through your Delay Repay claim history. Is it worth the risk for £3? only you can decide.

 

[AlterEgo]

I often use split ticketing, via a route which typically has quite poor performance. If my journey is A to C changing at B, and my split purchase gives me one ticket from A to B and another from B to C, and then my A to B train is delayed by >15 minutes, but not by enough to make me miss my connection, and I still get to C on time, can I still claim delay repay on the A-B ticket?

No. Delay repay is paid against your full journey and not individual parts or legs of it.

 

[cool110]

If the interchange time at B is long enough you could legitimately say you were making 2 separate journeys, especially if you were planning to leave the station for whatever reason. But for a shorter connection it would be harder to justify that.

 

[miami]

No. Delay repay is paid against your full journey and not individual parts or legs of it.

On the flip side if you have a London-Glasgow ticket which is 32 minutes late arriving at Warrington but makes up time and is only 10 minutes late at Glasgow, if your journey was to Warrington, you'd presumably get delay repay even though your ticket allowed you to continue to Glasgow.

 

[js517]

There are changes afoot that may make it easier for a TOC delay repay team to see that a ticket is part of a split-ticketing journey.

 

[Wolfie]

In my view it would be a ridiculous example of wanting to have your cake and eat it to, in one breath, insist for a journey done using ticket splitting that a delay on any one stage means that if you arrive late at the final destination that delay repay is due for the whole journey, and in the next breath seek to claim delay repay for one stage when you arrive at the final destination on time. I fear that there could be some serious negative implications for the former if too many people are doing the latter.

 

[robbeech]

If the interchange time at B is long enough you could legitimately say you were making 2 separate journeys, especially if you were planning to leave the station for whatever reason. But for a shorter connection it would be harder to justify that.

No you legitimately could not say this.

You should define your journey and that be that.

If your journey is A to C using 2 tickets that is your journey. To retrospectively decide that it was 2 journeys just to get money from the railway (tax payer in many cases) is not cricket. Continued behaviour like that will ensure that the railway takes steps to minimise it, which will make it more difficult and much less flexible for the passenger.

 

[infobleep]

On the flip side if you have a London-Glasgow ticket which is 32 minutes late arriving at Warrington but makes up time and is only 10 minutes late at Glasgow, if your journey was to Warrington, you'd presumably get delay repay even though your ticket allowed you to continue to Glasgow.

Yes is my understanding.

I claim when I'm delayed on part journeys when using a monthly return, for which the remainder of the return ticket is still valid or even if it's not valid after that day and I decided to finish short for whatever reason.

It's about the journey being made at the time you travel.

There are likely to be journeys out where where your are likely to miss your connecting train regularly and you could choose to take those services and regularly be delayed if you so wished, just to get money back. It would regularly take you longer to reach your destination though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my view it would be a ridiculous example of wanting to have your cake and eat it to, in one breath, insist for a journey done using ticket splitting that a delay on any one stage means that if you arrive late at the final destination that delay repay is due for the whole journey, and in the next breath seek to claim delay repay for one stage when you arrive at the final destination on time. I fear that there could be some serious negative implications for the former if too many people are doing the latter.

Agreed. The railway would love an excuse to say "one ticket, one journey" and stop accepting things like missed trains on split Advances. I don't think the legal precedent that prevents them banning splitting entirely (unlike say in Ireland where it *is* banned) would extend to having to give extra rights to people who travel on multiple tickets, rather just that they can't legally ban it.

To be fair you really need to define your journey in your mind before you start it and claim based on that decision, rather than just picking what is most financially beneficial to you after the event.

 

[neilmc]

I can't believe this ridiculous discussion!

Suppose I am travelling from, say, Huddersfield to Castleford changing at Leeds. The bus service from Leeds to Castleford is much better than the train service so I only buy a train ticket from Huddersfield to Leeds. My train is delayed by over 15 minutes but I still catch the bus I intended to catch and arrive at Castleford on time. Can I claim Delay Repay? Of course I can, because the train was late, full stop.

So instead I buy split train tickets for the whole journey and trust that the first train won't be too late - same scenario, train is late but I just manage to catch the Castleford train I intended. Should I claim? Of course, any sensible citizen assuming they have heard of the scheme will (if they can be bothered) put in a claim. The only problem is if you have a single ticket from Huddersfield to Castleford and the TOC check the connections before paying up. The sensible thing if you have any qualms at all about the legality of the scenario is to buy your split tickets in separate transactions then you have quite legitimately made two separate journeys.

As far as I am concerned if you are on a late train and the Delay Repay scheme applies to that train you claim it. I suppose it gets a bit silly if you are travelling from a local station to, say, London with a tight connection at a major interchange and you can claim a huge discount on the whole very expensive journey because of a delay on the first ten minutes, but that's I understand exactly what the scheme envisages.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

As far as I am concerned if you are on a late train and the Delay Repay scheme applies to that train you claim it. I suppose it gets a bit silly if you are travelling from a local station to, say, London with a tight connection at a major interchange and you can claim a huge discount on the whole very expensive journey because of a delay on the first ten minutes, but that's I understand exactly what the scheme envisages.

It can work the other way round. You have only an hourly connection from London to your local station. If the cross London connection is only just above the minimum you could be delayed under 15 minutes on the longer intercity run to London which translates into an hour or more late getting home.

Conversely the time allowed to cross London and catch your local connection can be so generous that a delay on the intercity leg, even a cancelled train, can result in arriving as scheduled in the itinerary.

 

[Haywain]

My train is delayed by over 15 minutes but I still catch the bus I intended to catch and arrive at Castleford on time. Can I claim Delay Repay? Of course I can, because the train was late, full stop.

Yes, because the delay in that situation was to your whole rail journey. Delay Repay does not apply to the bus.

So instead I buy split train tickets for the whole journey and trust that the first train won't be too late - same scenario, train is late but I just manage to catch the Castleford train I intended. Should I claim?

No, because your whole journey was not subject to a delay.

 

[NorthWalian]

I always thought the solution was to put the whole journey in and then have the TOC decide for themselves the compensation.

 

[Wolfie]

I always thought the solution was to put the whole journey in and then have the TOC decide for themselves the compensation.

Given how many TOCs already deny compensation for perfectly valid claims....

 

[AM9]

Why o Why do some here try to find ways of gaming delay repay running the risk of:

a) an accusation of a fraudulent claim​

or​

b) potentially puttingt more restrictions in delay repay rules (or even removing the scheme) such that everybody here suffers.​

​

I remember a poster here maybe 10 years ago trying to discuss a practice where his/her workplace was so near to Blackfriars Station that they could hear the PA announcements of delays. On hearing them they would
leave their workplace to scan their ticket at the gates to record that they were delayed and qualified for compensation. There were replies pointing out that too many claims might trigger an investigation as to why that person always managed to 'qualify' for repay. You might think on an enthusioast's social media board that most of the contributors don't want to be the trigger for negative changes of the rules for honest passengers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What you propose is having your cake and eating it, and that's not really cricket, is it?

If you're delayed on your overall journey, you claim Delay Repay. If you're not, you don't.

As far as I am concerned if you are on a late train and the Delay Repay scheme applies to that train you claim it.

Delay Repay is not paid against your train, it is paid against your overall rail journey.

This works both ways. A 10 minute delay on your first train could mean you miss your connection into a 2tph service and that means you're 40 minutes late. Claim. Conversely, a 20 minute delay may not result in a missed connection and so you're 0 minutes late. No claim.

I've even been on journeys where, due to a delayed train, I actually get home earlier than planned. Definitely no claim.

I don't understand the desire to game the system.

 

[Wolfie]

Why o Why do some here try to find ways of gaming delay repay running the risk of:

a) an accusation of a fraudulent claim​

or​

b) potentially puttingt more restrictions in delay repay rules (or even removing the scheme) such that everybody here suffers.​

​

I remember a poster here maybe 10 years ago trying to discuss a practice where his/her workplace was so near to Blackfriars Station that they could hear the PA announcements of delays. On hearing them they would
leave their workplace to scan their ticket at the gates to record that they were delayed and qualified for compensation. There were replies pointing out that too many claims might trigger an investigation as to why that person always managed to 'qualify' for repay. You might think on an enthusioast's social media board that most of the contributors don't want to be the trigger for negative changes of the rules for honest passengers.

Too right!

 

[NorthWalian]

Given how many TOCs already deny compensation for perfectly valid claims....

True but it beats not claiming at all then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So instead I buy split train tickets for the whole journey and trust that the first train won't be too late - same scenario, train is late but I just manage to catch the Castleford train I intended. Should I claim? Of course, any sensible citizen assuming they have heard of the scheme will (if they can be bothered) put in a claim. The only problem is if you have a single ticket from Huddersfield to Castleford and the TOC check the connections before paying up. The sensible thing if you have any qualms at all about the legality of the scenario is to buy your split tickets in separate transactions then you have quite legitimately made two separate journeys.

If you want to claim it's two separate journeys, I trust you'll also buy a new ticket if you miss your connection onto a split Advance? Because otherwise you're having your cake and eating it.

It's either one journey (with all the protections and benefits, but Delay Repay based on that) or it's two separate ones (in which case none of the protections are available to you, nor a through Delay Repay claim if the last train in the split is late). You really need to decide that before embarking upon it.

I don't understand the desire to game the system.

And the effect of doing so will be that the railway will get stricter on it, e.g. by tying DR to the ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really cannot understand the appeal of gaming the system to the point of maybe committing fraud, for two pounds and fifty pence.

 

[AM9]

Really cannot understand the appeal of gaming the system to the point of maybe committing fraud, for two pounds and fifty pence.

Maybe it's some wierd sense of achievement beating abusing the rules, or just a very mean habit to steal from a service largely paid for by others.

To be honest, the thread seems to be a strange topic for a member's first post on RUK.

 

[robbeech]

The sensible thing if you have any qualms at all about the legality of the scenario is to buy your split tickets in separate transactions then you have quite legitimately made two separate journeys.

No you haven’t. Not necessarily.
You can buy tickets in 1 2 or 11 transactions to make up the tickets for a journey. Provided all the tickets have been purchased before you begin the journey and you’ve defined what the journey is before you start that journey then tickets do not have to be bought together. You can argue this both ways. You can buy a A to B ticket and a B to C ticket in 1 transaction but with 6 hours at B, clearly 2 journeys but in 1 transaction.

Delay Repay is a compensation scheme based on your defined and proposed journey and your actual journey and the time delay between them.

There is 1 simple change TOCs could implement to make this very difficult for passengers which would throw thousands of journey opportunities per day out of the window for people and it’s actions and attitudes like this that are most likely to push them that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No you haven’t. Not necessarily.
You can buy tickets in 1 2 or 11 transactions to make up the tickets for a journey. Provided all the tickets have been purchased before you begin the journey and you’ve defined what the journey is before you start that journey then tickets do not have to be bought together. You can argue this both ways. You can buy a A to B ticket and a B to C ticket in 1 transaction but with 6 hours at B, clearly 2 journeys but in 1 transaction.

Agreed.

I've just purchased a set of tickets for a journey Bletchley-Bedford-Chesterfield (quite a clumsy set of connections to be honest, but hey - I'd rather do that than go anywhere near XC on a Friday evening, particularly XC lite which is worse than the rest of it).

Because I'm returning on a Sunday the outward Bletchley-Bedford ticket was purchased separately, on the outward I consider that part of the journey, on the return I'll be going back from Bedford by bus so that won't be so any claim will be based on the Bedford arrival.

No way to purchase that as one (though I suppose I could have added both to the same basket to check out) but I do still consider it part of the same thing.

There is 1 simple change TOCs could implement to make this very difficult for passengers which would throw thousands of journey opportunities per day out of the window for people and it’s actions and attitudes like this that are most likely to push them that way.

Indeed.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

There are changes afoot that may make it easier for a TOC delay repay team to see that a ticket is part of a split-ticketing journey.

So that's what the changes to the settlement spec are all about! I wonder if this sort of claim happens often enough to be worth the effort?

 

[Belperpete]

Plenty of pious codswallop about "not cricket", "mean habit", "not playing the game", etc etc. I am surprised that no-one claimed it is "ungentlemanly behaviour, by gad"! As to the OP "getting caught" - for doing what exactly? Even mention of potential fraud. However, as far as I can see, nobody has pointed to anything in the DR scheme rules that actually says it is not allowed. You play a game by the rules, and as far as I am concerned, if something is not against the rules, then you are entitled to it. The DR scheme rules are already sufficiently stacked against us, so why voluntarily stack them even higher against yourself? As far as I am concerned, whether I am entitled to 5p or £5, I will claim it. If others choose not to claim money that they are entitled to, that is up to them.

As far as I can see, the rules state that you are entitled to have two tickets considered as one journey - but that does not mean that you are REQUIRED to consider them as one journey. For example, if I buy a ticket to travel from A to B this morning, and another ticket to travel from B to C this afternoon, does that mean they HAVE to be considered as one journey? Of course not. It is my decision whether I am making one journey, or two. If I am delayed arriving at B, such that I have no time to do my shopping, say, so decide to travel straight on to C without break, then I would feel perfectly entitled to submit a claim for the delay to my A to B journey. And if I were then further delayed travelling from B to C, I would feel perfectly entitled to submit a claim for the whole journey A to C. And yes, that is "having my cake and eating it" - I like cake, and if I am entitled to it, I see no reason why I shouldn't eat it.

As to the suggestion that you are only entitled to consider them as two separate journeys depending on how long a break there is between them, can anyone point me to anywhere where this dividing-line (below this time is one journey, above is two) is defined, as I can't find it.

So to answer the OP's original question "can I still claim delay repay on the A-B ticket?" - the simple answer is "Yes". Of course you can submit a claim. Provided that you consider them to be two separate journeys, I can't see that you are breaking any rules. Of course this is "gaming the system", but that is what systems are for.

 

[Watershed]

Plenty of pious codswallop about "not cricket", "mean habit", "not playing the game", etc etc. I am surprised that no-one claimed it is "ungentlemanly behaviour, by gad"! As to the OP "getting caught" - for doing what exactly? Even mention of potential fraud. However, as far as I can see, nobody has pointed to anything in the DR scheme rules that actually says it is not allowed. You play a game by the rules, and as far as I am concerned, if something is not against the rules, then you are entitled to it. The DR scheme rules are already sufficiently stacked against us, so why voluntarily stack them even higher against yourself? As far as I am concerned, whether I am entitled to 5p or £5, I will claim it. If others choose not to claim money that they are entitled to, that is up to them.

As far as I can see, the rules state that you are entitled to have two tickets considered as one journey - but that does not mean that you are REQUIRED to consider them as one journey. For example, if I buy a ticket to travel from A to B this morning, and another ticket to travel from B to C this afternoon, does that mean they HAVE to be considered as one journey? Of course not. It is my decision whether I am making one journey, or two. If I am delayed arriving at B, such that I have no time to do my shopping, say, so decide to travel straight on to C without break, then I would feel perfectly entitled to submit a claim for the delay to my A to B journey. And if I were then further delayed travelling from B to C, I would feel perfectly entitled to submit a claim for the whole journey A to C. And yes, that is "having my cake and eating it" - I like cake, and if I am entitled to it, I see no reason why I shouldn't eat it.

As to the suggestion that you are only entitled to consider them as two separate journeys depending on how long a break there is between them, can anyone point me to anywhere where this dividing-line (below this time is one journey, above is two) is defined, as I can't find it.

So to answer the OP's original question "can I still claim delay repay on the A-B ticket?" - the simple answer is "Yes". Of course you can submit a claim. Provided that you consider them to be two separate journeys, I can't see that you are breaking any rules. Of course this is "gaming the system", but that is what systems are for.

Spot on. The crucial word in the NRCoT is may: "you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey".

Nowhere does it say that you must choose or declare what your journey is before starting or finishing it. Indeed in some cases it might only be after your ticket's last day of validity passes that your journey gets defined (e.g. if you broke your journey intermediately, and could have continued it if you so chose).

The only reference in the NRCoT to setting out your journey is in the section about claiming delay compensation. So I would argue that it's only at the stage of submitting a claim that you have to make up your mind.

As you say, Delay Repay may be generous in some circumstances but there are plenty of circumstances where it's not. At the end of the day it's a scheme for liquidated damages, so any conditions or exclusions have to be contractually defined. The TOCs can't rely on nebulous hand-waving.

The TOCs are perfectly happy to have their cake and eat it on other occasions (I'm sure I don't need to list the many examples), so if defining your journey advantageously is regarded as cake-ism - I have no particular qualms about that. We can talk about that if the TOCs ever regain the moral high ground - I won't be holding my breath!

If the TOCs decide to try and change the rules to prevent these kinds of claims, so be it. It would be good to have a proper definition of what "journey" means, for a start. But I suspect they'll very much struggle to create a consistent definition, let alone anything that stops this kind of claim. You'll always be able to buy each split ticket through different retailers or methods, or simply in separate transactions. Or to get a friend to buy the ticket for you... The list of options is endless.

 

[MrJeeves]

So that's what the changes to the settlement spec are all about! I wonder if this sort of claim happens often enough to be worth the effort?

To be fair, I don't think the changes to the spec are to detect split delay repay "fraud" (as some people are calling it) and are more for trying to detect split ticket anomalies and workarounds for certain TOCs' pricing trial in order to close them off. It may well be that it becomes possible to detect it as a side effect, though.

My personal view on this matter is the same as Wastershed Watershed's above. Nothing requires you to interpret your multiple tickets as one through journey, and the NRCoT makes it clear that it is up to me to decide. If I take advantage of the benefits of declaring it as a through journey, such as ticket acceptance or use on an alternative service with splits, then I'd not make a claim as people are suggesting you could do in here. Other than that, why not?

 

[Watershed]

To be fair, I don't think the changes to the spec are to detect split delay repay "fraud" (as some people are calling it) and are more for trying to detect split ticket anomalies and workarounds for certain TOCs' pricing trial in order to close them off. It may well be that it becomes possible to detect it as a side effect, though.

My personal view on this matter is the same as Wastershed's above.

Errr...

Nothing requires you to interpret your multiple tickets as one through journey, and the NRCoT makes it clear that it is up to me to decide. If I take advantage of the benefits of declaring it as a through journey, such as ticket acceptance or use on an alternative service with splits, then I'd not make a claim as people are suggesting you could do in here. Other than that, why not?

Indeed; I'd suggest that the fact you're required to stop/change at the split station(s) means it's more than a fair tradeoff to say you can consider your journey as finishing there (or starting, as the case may be).

 

[MrJeeves]

Errr...

Bugger! I wasn't meant to hit send!