Are there any figures for how many people miss trains due to last minute platform alterations?

[Geswedey]

Someone just decided to announce a platform change at Cambridge for a Kings Cross fast from platform 8 to platform 1. At 1636, when the train is due to depart at 1638. Cue literally hundreds of people running madly around Cambridge station, over the (totally inadequate for the number of people who use it) footbridge, etc.

Of course the train didn't actually depart until 4-5 minutes later than scheduled, but it wasn't announced that it would wait until everyone had got across. It does seem bizarre that a railway so otherwise focused on avoiding the slightest possibly dangerous passenger behaviour at stations (eg. shouting at people who put one foot over a yellow line) thinks it is acceptable to do this sort of thing on a regular basis.

There appears to possibly be a very good reason for this short notice change at Cambridge, there are no services between Kings Lynn and Ely, the 1638 should have come from KLN but instead started at CBG formed from at train that terminated at CBG that should have gone to KLN, this train is shown as arriving at CBG at 1630.5 in platform 1. GA run CBG and the announcements will either be automated or manually controlled by GA staff who would need to be informed by Great Northern / Thameslink Control of the details and would also require CBG powerbox to platform accordingly. a lot then depends on when all this decision making and communicating took place to allow the announcements to be made.

 

[arb]

Someone on P6 needing to cross to P4 has to go ~250m or more, there can't be many stations where a platform change needs such a long walk.

I read this and immediately decided that I had to reply and suggest Cambridge, from platform 7 or 8, to any of platforms 1, 2 or 3. Then I read the rest of the thread and saw this:

Someone just decided to announce a platform change at Cambridge for a Kings Cross fast from platform 8 to platform 1.

 

[sir_gummerz]

Are platform staff instructed to ensure passengers affected by last minute platform changes actually catch the trains? Some passengers will also require assistance to move platforms, which may take time.

Two locations which are bad for changes are platform 0 at Cardiff Central and platform 3 at Shrewsbury. Both are outside the station barrier areas and walking between them and the rest of the station takes at least several minutes.

Ex dispatcher here. Yes we were supposed to let the staff on the new platform a description of the last person/ any slower pax so that they could make it. However only so much you can do expecially if there's another train due on the platform, making it impossible to see who's going to what train.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's not just platform alterations. Cantrerbury West yesterday, early evening, lots of people wanting to catch the next train. So what does the man in the ticket office do? Five minutes before the train is due he decides is the ideal time to collect the cash from one of the two ticket machines, thereby closing down two of the three available means of buying a ticket.

Although there was no-one available to sell us a ticket there were, of course, three people on the barriers to prevent ticketless travel.

Fortunately, and despite SER's machines' inability to sell two railcard discounted tickets in a single transaction, we did just manage to catch the train. (Fortunately we were going to Wye and not Harrietsham - typing out those extra 16 characters would have made the difference)

 

[johncrossley]

What about people on advance tickets? Where do they stand?

I didn't see anyone answer this question. I'd like to know. Compensation should be due because of the delay, but in reality I bet the railway makes you pay for a new ticket. In the event of encountering a RPI, the consequence could be dire if they charge you a penalty fare or report you for prosecution.

 

[WAB]

I didn't see anyone answer this question. I'd like to know. Compensation should be due because of the delay, but in reality I bet the railway makes you pay for a new ticket. In the event of encountering a RPI, the consequence could be dire if they charge you a penalty fare or report you for prosecution.

I always endorse tickets for travel on subsequent services if passengers miss their train due to a short-notice platform alteration. I have no idea what the official position is, but I suspect there is no written procedure. As far as I'm concerned, it is ameliorating the failure of the railway to provide the advertised service.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I almost did at Preston once, although to be fair I was way at the other end of the platform chatting to a Pendolino driver about the changing traction at Polmadie. Saw my London train pulling in on another platform and sprinted off mid-sentence. Hope he understood!

Balham station always causes particularly shell-shocked faces when the platforms change.

 

[MikeWM]

There appears to possibly be a very good reason for this short notice change at Cambridge, there are no services between Kings Lynn and Ely, the 1638 should have come from KLN but instead started at CBG formed from at train that terminated at CBG that should have gone to KLN, this train is shown as arriving at CBG at 1630.5 in platform 1.

Yes, I'm aware, I was right there, trying to catch that train to Ely and was more than a little irritated that I was going to have to hang around in the cold for another half-an-hour on Cambridge station! (Particularly as there was an a semi-fast train at 1643 going south, I don't see why the fast service couldn't have continued to Ely and turned there, but I digress...)

Looking at RTT, they'd already done the same for the 1538 and then continued to do so for the rest of the day. Seems it would have been easier if the train had been put into 8, if possible, or if not, the change announced somewhat earlier.

That said, there will be cases like this where a platform change legitimately needs to be announced at the last minute. I think there ought to be some sort of standardised announcement along the lines of 'the train won't be departing for another 10 minutes, please don't rush, if you need to use the lift you've still got plenty of time', etc. Hopefully that would help avoid the sort of scenes I saw at Cambridge yesterday.

--

I read this and immediately decided that I had to reply and suggest Cambridge, from platform 7 or 8, to any of platforms 1, 2 or 3.

I maintain it should have been required to add a bridge or underpass at the south end of Cambridge, as well as the one added at the north, when building 7 and 8. Given how frequently platform alterations happen at CBG, often at the last minute, the current setup isn't remotely adequate.

The addition of the stupid illuminated advertising screen on platform 4 and the new immensely ugly barrier opposite the entrance, both narrowing the platforms, isn't helpful either.

 

[styles]

Can be difficult if you've booked passenger assist as well.

We'd booked a wheelchair space on a Chester to Euston journey. It was my mum's first time taking her chair on public transport, so I'd booked a direct train to make things easier.

That train was cancelled, and we needed to change at Crewe.

The main issue we had was that at Chester the passenger assist staff member had said they'd meet us at the train. When the train was cancelled, none of the staff could find the passenger assist staffer. I re-planned the journey going via Crewe, and tried to book passenger assist on the app again (as we couldn't locate them at the station). It got declined. Decided we'd have to make our way over to the other platform and flag down some on board crew or a dispatcher to get the ramp. But my bigger concern really was that we were very slow-moving in the wheelchair and it was a push to get to the new platform on time. My mum wouldn't have made the train had I not been there and replanned it myself.

(On the plus side, the Eurostar staff were amazing. To the point that I went online afterwards and filled out a compliment form as the staff member working the special assistance desk was working her backside off dealing with cancellations and delays and getting people to the right place)

 

[philthetube]

Can be difficult if you've booked passenger assist as well.

We'd booked a wheelchair space on a Chester to Euston journey. It was my mum's first time taking her chair on public transport, so I'd booked a direct train to make things easier.

That train was cancelled, and we needed to change at Crewe.

The main issue we had was that at Chester the passenger assist staff member had said they'd meet us at the train. When the train was cancelled, none of the staff could find the passenger assist staffer. I re-planned the journey going via Crewe, and tried to book passenger assist on the app again (as we couldn't locate them at the station). It got declined. Decided we'd have to make our way over to the other platform and flag down some on board crew or a dispatcher to get the ramp. But my bigger concern really was that we were very slow-moving in the wheelchair and it was a push to get to the new platform on time. My mum wouldn't have made the train had I not been there and replanned it myself.

(On the plus side, the Eurostar staff were amazing. To the point that I went online afterwards and filled out a compliment form as the staff member working the special assistance desk was working her backside off dealing with cancellations and delays and getting people to the right place)

This is worth a thread of it's own

 

[ertowerty1]

I raised the issue with CIRAS as a result of the overcrowding at Euston station which got into the national news a few months ago.

I have experienced this at Kings Cross when a train has been switched from the suburban side (platforms 9-11 as was) to the main line station platforms 1-8. As anyone knows this can be quite a hike specially if the train is sitting at the country end of the platform.

Network Rail signallers need to aware of this and not pull off until a set time has elapsed, also, dispatch staff must not give Train Ready to Start and Right Away until said time has elapsed even though the departure time is delayed.

Dispatching a train on time in these circumstances must be regarded as a serious breach of protocol and the ORR must regard this in the same way.

I know the problems that late departing trains can cause but everyone concerned need to be aware of this and take the utmost case to ensure that these last minute alterations do not occur.

Going back to the days when Royal Mail used the railways, image having to to move sacks of mail from one platform to another and still keep to departure times. Whoever writes the rules must include platform alterations with less than (say 10 minutes) notice as a serious operating irregularity and investigated accordingly, on the same level as SPADs (Signals passed at Danger).

RAIB investigate people trapped in departing train doors, and these last minute alterations need to be reported in the same manner, they can lead to the same sort of injuries.

"Instant Planning" needs to be seriously reduced.

 

[james_the_xv]

Network Rail signallers need to aware of this and not pull off until a set time has elapsed, also, dispatch staff must not give Train Ready to Start and Right Away until said time has elapsed even though the departure time is delayed.
Dispatching a train on time in these circumstances must be regarded as a serious breach of protocol amd the ORR must regard this in the same way.

I doubt signallers will be aware of when platform changes are announced. They/ARS will set routes once TRTS is operated.

No chance any countdown is implemented on dispatch, there is no way to know when everyone who has intended to board said train has boarded without holding the train unnecessarily and inviting overcrowding. It's one of those 'it is what it is' scenarios.

Going back to the days when Royal Mail used the railways, image having to to move sacks of mail from one platform to another and still keep to departure times.Whoever wtites the rules must include platform alreations with less than (say 10 minutes) notice as a serious operationg irregularity and investigated accordingly, on the same level as SPADs (Signals passed at Danger).
RAIB investigate people trapped in departing train doors, and these last minute alterations need to be reported in the same manner, they can lead to the same sort of injurues.

Good luck with that. A change of platform is nowhere near the level of a SPAD in terms of risk to life and infrastructure. RAIB only investigate accidents or serious near misses, and to suggest that a platform alteration is the same level as that is quite frankly ludicrous.

I know the problems that late departing trains can cause but everyone concerned need to be aware of this and take the utmost case to ensure that these last minute alterations do not occur.

"Instant Planning" needs to be seriously reduced.

"Instant planning" is almost exclusively the product of disruption. How do you recommend TOC controls go about service recovery in a the finite world of network capacity and staff we unfortunately live in?

 

[BrummieBobby]

Agreed, as a signaller I always try and inform station staff in advance if I need to re-platform, it makes their job easier too as they are the ones who will potentially have to deal with angry passengers who have missed a train.

As an aside, several of the multi-platform stations in my neck of the woods have automated announcements, interposing the train head code on the berth of the "new" platform causes the automated system to announce the platform alteration, which can be quite useful if the station staff have gone home.

 

[Bald Rick]

Network Rail signallers need to aware of this and not pull off until a set time has elapsed

In the case of Kings Cross, the signalling system will set the route and clear signals itself without signaller intervention as soon as the TRTS is pressed and a free route is available.

 

[StoneRoad]

Personally, I've had some near squeaks with late platform alterations ...

The worst one recently was in Carlisle, late at night, and involved belting from one side of the station to the other. I had arrived from Whitehaven and was waiting for the Newcastle Train.
What made it worse was that when the train left, it made the usual announcements, then said the next stop was Morpeth !

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I doubt signallers will be aware of when platform changes are announced. They/ARS will set routes once TRTS is operated.

But the tannoy operator at the station who made the announcement will be aware of when he/she made the announcement, so presumably that person could communicate to the platform staff that the train should not leave until X minutes have elapsed (where X is sufficient for a reasonably mobile person to make their way from the old platform to the new one).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Dispatching a train on time in these circumstances must be regarded as a serious breach of protocol and the ORR must regard this in the same way.

I know the problems that late departing trains can cause but everyone concerned need to be aware of this and take the utmost case to ensure that these last minute alterations do not occur.

Quite. Dispatching atrain without giving its intending passengers an opportunity to board it defeats the purpose of running the train in the first place.

A train arriving at its destination without the passengers should not be considered to quailify for the punctuality statistics - would you pay your pizza deleivery man if he arrived on time, but without your pizza?

 

[Krokodil]

Whoever writes the rules must include platform alterations with less than (say 10 minutes) notice as a serious operating irregularity and investigated accordingly, on the same level as SPADs (Signals passed at Danger).

This is completely disproportionate

 

[zwk500]

Quite. Dispatching atrain without giving its intending passengers an opportunity to board it defeats the purpose of running the train in the first place.

A train arriving at its destination without the passengers should not be considered to quailify for the punctuality statistics - would you pay your pizza deleivery man if he arrived on time, but without your pizza?

Trains don't pick up passengers at only 1 station though, in general. And they form return workings, and so on. The balance of the needs of the people wanting to board the train at station 1 against the needs of the people wanting to use the train to get from 2 to 5, or 3 to 9, etc, are difficult to balance in real time. They won't get every decision right and there's room for improvement but the railway *isn't* a personal transport service, it's a *mass* transit service. So 'my train left without me' is frustrating but 'my train was half an hour late because it got stuck behind a stopper waiting for people at a platform change 10 stations up the line' is also frustrating.

My local trains can often get switched around at Bristol Temple Meads, often at short notice and while the signallers try and keep the same islands, it's not always possible and you can regularly hear the platform announcer apologising for a last-minute platform alteration and instructing passengers to use the subway to reach the new platform.

 

[plugwash]

Whoever writes the rules must include platform alterations with less than (say 10 minutes) notice as a serious operating irregularity and investigated accordingly, on the same level as SPADs (Signals passed at Danger).

I don't think it should be on the same level as SPADs. There are very much good reasons for last-minuite platform alterations, usually that the plaform the train *should* be in is blocked, and you need to keep the mainline clea. I do think it's a problem that there is no penalty in the performance regime for a last-minuite platform alteration.

Ultimately, particularly at terminal stations, if a train arrives and can't be put in it's booked location, it has to be put somewhere.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't think it should be on the same level as SPADs. There are very much good reasons for last-minuite platform alterations, usually that the plaform the train *should* be in is blocked, and you need to keep the mainline clea. I do think it's a problem that there is no penalty in the performance regime for a last-minuite platform change.

Well, under GBR the concept of a Performance Regime (at least among GBR operators) won’t exist, will it? So there is really no scope for penalties, except, perhaps, in individual managers’ bonuses if there is such a scheme.

 

[3141]

I was once waiting at Woking for a train to Guildford, which was shown as departing from the platform on the fast line. I don't know the platform numbers there.

Standing near the edge of the platform (but of course behind the yellow line) and looking towards London I saw the approaching train switching from the fast line to the slow one. I therefore headed to the steps up to the footbridge to cross to the other platform.

The train was running into the platform by the time an announcement was made about the change. It waited in the platform probably for long enough for all passengers to get to the new platform.

It seemed to me likely that the decision to re-route it was made at a late stage and I think the platform staff probably didn't know till the last moment. Someone - the driver or the guard, or perhaps one of the platform staff - has to make that decision to hold the train so that no-one will miss it.

 

[AutoUnder]

I'm surprised I've only just come across this thread, considering how relevant it is to me.

My local station Leyland is one of the worst for platform alterations. The CIS will only change once the train arrives and with it being a station with only one member of staff in the ticket office, there are no platform staff to hold the service. Preston PSB will try and phone in advance so station staff can announce it manually but they cannot manually override the CIS and it will still display and announce the old platform until it arrives. As part of my final year project at university, I developed a system that was able to identify alterations at Leyland automatically before the CIS is able to. Basically there are berth reporting points on both sides of the station that once a service passes, it cannot possibly change to a different platform (e.g. a Manchester Airport service due on platform 4 at Leyland, if it leaves Preston and passes Ribble Junction on the Up Slow, it can only arrive on platform 2. An alteration can be shown automatically at that point). If anyone is curious around the details of it, you can read this blog post here: https://enroutecic.com/blog/the-quest-to-solve-last-minute-platform-alterations-at-leyland/.

I am honestly surprised how many other stations are also affected by this issue. I assumed that stations that were on lines with more modern signalling systems would update for an alteration as soon as the signaller set the train's route. Maybe that isn't the case?

 

[AutoUnder]

Agreed, as a signaller I always try and inform station staff in advance if I need to re-platform, it makes their job easier too as they are the ones who will potentially have to deal with angry passengers who have missed a train.

As an aside, several of the multi-platform stations in my neck of the woods have automated announcements, interposing the train head code on the berth of the "new" platform causes the automated system to announce the platform alteration, which can be quite useful if the station staff have gone home.

I love it when signallers do that! With the Leyland situation I mentioned above, I don't get why they can't get the CIS to react in the same way for berths between the station and the last junction before the station

 

[IanXC]

Deciding when a replatformed train can be safely dispatched without anyone missing it is clearly not the signallers responsibility. The logical place for this to sit, given that the overwhelming number of examples we are looking at are stations with platform dispatch staff, is station staff, and not to press the TRTS until the train is, well, Ready to Start - but the considerations and problems are of course numerous.

Frequency of service is clearly a key factor here too - the overall system does not benefit from services being delayed, so a reasonable decision needs to be made about the overall result if delays propagated via holding services in these circumstances.

On the question of an automated minimum time to move platforms I would suggest this would be very hard to achieve. Even if we take the minimum connection time at a station as the benchmark, these are widely inconsistent and in a good number of cases inappropriate anyway - I'd challenge anyone to need 7 minutes to get from platform 4 to platform 8 at Doncaster, whereas platform 0 to platform 7 is a totally different question.

I love it when signallers do that! With the Leyland situation I mentioned above, I don't get why they can't get the CIS to react in the same way for berths between the station and the last junction before the station

Some CIS suppliers include exactly the functionality that you describe, but to my knowledge it is only in place on lines which are signalled with more modern signalling equipment than Preston PSB (S-Class data areas for those who want to look further!)

 

[Bikeman78]

On the question of an automated minimum time to move platforms I would suggest this would be very hard to achieve. Even if we take the minimum connection time at a station as the benchmark, these are widely inconsistent and in a good number of cases inappropriate anyway - I'd challenge anyone to need 7 minutes to get from platform 4 to platform 8 at Doncaster, whereas platform 0 to platform 7 is a totally different question.

Redhill is a pain in this regard. I've seen two recent examples of a late running Peterborough train being diverted from platform 2 to platform 0 because the Reigate to Victoria train was blocking platform 2. Given that the Reigate trains have four minutes (more in the peaks), would it not make more sense to replatform them instead, giving people more time to move? I have been on replatformed Thameslink trains at Redhill. Judging by the panic and the people rushing down the stairs, clearly they knew nothing about it until the train was running into platform 0.

 

[htwestern]

It helps knowing numbers in Welsh at Cardiff because platform alterations (all too common on 1&2) are announced in Welsh first and it gives you an extra minute to get ahead of everyone

 

[Dr_Paul]

When I worked in Shepherds Bush in the mid-1980s, I'd sometimes travel via Olympia on the 'Kennybelle' service. This usually started from Platform 2 at Clapham Junction, but if it was running late from Streatham depot, it would go straight to platform 16, on the other side of the station, which led to a rush either over the bridge or along the subway, a right pain!

 

[Western 52]

It helps knowing numbers in Welsh at Cardiff because platform alterations (all too common on 1&2) are announced in Welsh first and it gives you an extra minute to get ahead of everyone

Yes a definite advantage! Traksy often helps too.

 

[Kite159]

It helps knowing numbers in Welsh at Cardiff because platform alterations (all too common on 1&2) are announced in Welsh first and it gives you an extra minute to get ahead of everyone

Although at Cardiff Central I've noticed sometimes trains heading towards Bridgend & beyond are advertised as being on the 'A' end of the platforms only for the train to carry on through to the 'B' end forcing all those passengers to walk to the train. I guess it's advertised as the A end in case there is another train at the B end waiting to ECS shunt.

(A - Eastern end, B - western End)