Should trains from the South West of England call at Old Oak Common?

[Topological]

Given that inbound aircraft are completely unreliable for when they turn up at Heathrow, along with not knowing how long it takes for the bags to be delivered etc, reservations for those continuing onwards to the West Country are quite impractical, especially for destinations served multiple times an hour. You just want to get on the next one.

Being an Economist by training, I book advance tickets on trains which leave Paddington about 2 to 3 hours after scheduled landing at Heathrow. Normally, I will end up with a long wait. If routing via Reading and the Elizabeth Line then I go for 2 hours 30 to the Reading departure time. There is less to do on Reading station than around Paddington.

I suspect that people who needed flexibility would have a train in mind, reserve on that, then travel earlier if their plane was on time.

Advance tickets are fixed train only, so makes no real difference if there are people on from Paddington or not, you have to commit to a train.

 

[sh24]

If Clapham Junction calls work for Exeter via Yeovil/Bournemouth/Weymouth trains (which they do) why won't OOC work for GWR?

 

[fishwomp]

Headline long distance journey times were given up a generation ago when the railway realised there was more revenue to be made by stopping at the major points and turning their main services into a sort of outer-suburban turn-up-and-go operation. That's why there are no first stop Bath services any more, and a very frequent service to Reading and Swindon.

So why is HS2 not stopping until the outskirts of Birmingham then? Quainton Road - which was the major interchange for Brill - should be first on the new stations list, then Calvert for EWR connections.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was under the impression that the majority of journeys to Paddington involve onward travel into Central London as it is not the best located terminus. Given that OOC would provide a quicker interchange onto the Elizabeth Line as well as more options outside of London such as Heathrow and HS2, I would’ve thought the case for a stop would be rock solid but it appears most people are applauding the removal of it

It depends on where you are going in central London surely? For lots of parts staying on until Paddington and then getting the circle / H&C line will still be the best.

 

[Topological]

So why is HS2 not stopping until the outskirts of Birmingham then? Quainton Road - which was the major interchange for Brill - should be first on the new stations list, then Calvert for EWR connections.

It does suprise me that there was not a station somewhere in the Chilterns (probably on the A43). However, that is off-topic.

 

[MasterPhillips]

If the proposed London Overground stations are not built then I can understand this, however for the sake of what, 3 minutes, it’s not exactly a big deal to stop.
Those celebrating this seem to think adding a few minutes to a journey to/from the South West is a huge issue. It’s not and no passenger is going to notice. There are plenty of ways to save time, such as the 5 minutes at Reading.

 

[A S Leib]

Just make the long distance GWR services pick up only Westbound and set down only Eastbound at Reading so tickets between Paddington/Old Oak Common and Reading are not valid on these services.

There's around as many passengers between Paddington and Reading as there are for Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Bath Spa and Swindon combined; I doubt Elizabeth line and Didcot / Oxford services would be enough for Reading passengers by themselves.

If Clapham Junction calls work for Exeter via Yeovil/Bournemouth/Weymouth trains (which they do) why won't OOC work for GWR?

Longer-distance Waterloo services are already generally local services west of Bournemouth / Salisbury; most longer GWR services don't have many calls close together, apart from west of Newton Abbot / Oxford or stations like Pembrey & Burry Port (I'm in favour of everything calling at Old Oak Common; playing devil's advocate).

 

[deltic]

It's at least 5 years till HS2 starts, plenty of time for Ministers to change their minds many times over.

 

[cle]

“As standard” could be twisted either way.

Ie a few inbound AM services don’t call, and same in evenings as a sop. Or MP makes a promise they may not need to have to deliver.

Ueno in Tokyo sees some services skip it… can happen on similar railways. But uniform surely best.

 

[irish_rail]

If there is such a great demand for GWR passengers from the south west and south Wales to get onto Crossrail 5 minutes earlier, or change onto a Heathrow train a few minutes sooner, then why don't GWR and Heathrow express just make calls at (for arguments sake) Hayes???? Could be done now with virtually no infrastructure expenditure. The answer is quite simply there isn't the demand or justification to do it. Which is why Old Oak stops are (hopefully) not going to be foisted on long distance GWR services.

 

[PGAT]

If there is such a great demand for GWR passengers from the south west and south Wales to get onto Crossrail 5 minutes earlier, or change onto a Heathrow train a few minutes sooner, then why don't GWR and Heathrow express just make calls at (for arguments sake) Hayes???? Could be done now with virtually no infrastructure expenditure. The answer is quite simply there isn't the demand or justification to do it. Which is why Old Oak stops are (hopefully) not going to be foisted on long distance GWR services.

You say this as if the main argument for not having Old Oak stops isn’t also about 5 minute journey time differences.

 

[fishwomp]

You say this as if the main argument for not having Old Oak stops isn’t also about 5 minute journey time differences.

OOC would be 7 ish minutes difference for 95% of passengers versus 15 minutes benefit for 5%.

 

[weeklycommuter]

There's around as many passengers between Paddington and Reading as there are for Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Bath Spa and Swindon combined; I doubt Elizabeth line and Didcot / Oxford services would be enough for Reading passengers by themselves.

Capacity on long distance services London (Paddington and Old Oak Common) to and from Swindon, Bristol, South Wales, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall should be used for passengers making those journeys. It is a waste of capacity if a large part of the capacity of these long distance services is taken up by passengers travelling between London and Reading. Surely more capacity should be added between London and Reading if existing Elizabeth line and Didcot / Oxford services do not provide enough capacity between London and Reading.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If there is such a great demand for GWR passengers from the south west and south Wales to get onto Crossrail 5 minutes earlier, or change onto a Heathrow train a few minutes sooner, then why don't GWR and Heathrow express just make calls at (for arguments sake) Hayes???? Could be done now with virtually no infrastructure expenditure. The answer is quite simply there isn't the demand or justification to do it. Which is why Old Oak stops are (hopefully) not going to be foisted on long distance GWR services.

That ignores the possibility of an Overground station at Old Oak though.

 

[Class15]

That ignores the possibility of an Overground station at Old Oak though.

Which is not even confirmed. I’d say that anything related to HS2 that hasn’t been funded is not going to happen.

 

[Topological]

If there is such a great demand for GWR passengers from the south west and south Wales to get onto Crossrail 5 minutes earlier, or change onto a Heathrow train a few minutes sooner, then why don't GWR and Heathrow express just make calls at (for arguments sake) Hayes???? Could be done now with virtually no infrastructure expenditure. The answer is quite simply there isn't the demand or justification to do it. Which is why Old Oak stops are (hopefully) not going to be foisted on long distance GWR services.

This is a little silly.

OOC is being designed with two platform faces for each line to allow the present timetable to be maintained. Hayes only has one face per line. Therefore Hayes cannot fulfill the function that OOC will.

In Manchester, all trains stop at Stockport. I suspect the balance between OOC and Paddington will end up very similar to the balance between Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[JamesRowden]

Provide an every 5 minute non-stop service between Old Oak Common and Euston which GWR passengers are allowed to use (or an every 5 minute metro service from Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction which calls at Old Oak Common) and stopping every GWR service at Old Oak Common (rather than none [or a few if the timetable permits]) makes sense to me. But I am pretty sure that Old Oak Common to Euston journeys will not be permitted on HS2 like such journeys would not be allowed on GWR services to Paddington, because of the adverse effect on journey times which would be produced.

Without either of those very useful connections, and with the 26m end doored stock on most services, double backing Outer Thames Valley to HS2 and GWR to Heathrow passengers at Paddington seems to me like the optimum compromise.

In the end, as I see it, this discussion comes down to opinion regarding the optimum compromise, as much as it is to do with understanding a future reality.

 

[MarkyT]

Capacity on long distance services London (Paddington and Old Oak Common) to and from Swindon, Bristol, South Wales, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall should be used for passengers making those journeys. It is a waste of capacity if a large part of the capacity of these long distance services is taken up by passengers travelling between London and Reading. Surely more capacity should be added between London and Reading if existing Elizabeth line and Didcot / Oxford services do not provide enough capacity between London and Reading.

Many people travel from the west to Reading. It's a big employment centre and massive interchange hub. GWR gets to sell the seats vacated again to Reading - London commuters. Reading passengers much prefer the intercities because they're frequent and quicker than the EL and GWR semi-fasts, even though standing is often necessary after the vacant seats have been taken. It's more of a problem in the evening peak with shorter distance travellers taking available seats, demonstrating the advantage of making a reservation at busy times of the day for long distance travel. If passengers haven't been able to obtain a reservation on a busy train, they can wait on the country end footbridge for it to be called then make a quick descent to the front of the train to select an available seat before the hordes arrive from the buffer stop end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My personal view would be that trains from the South West (i.e. Plymouth/Exeter/Penzance) should call for connections to/from HS2, certainly in summer, but that there's less need for Bristols/Cardiffs/Oxfords to call. Indeed, one could argue for XC to cut back to Bristol and thus be replaced by using HS2 to Old Oak thence GWR for going to the Westcountry from the North West, as it'll be both faster and less overcrowded and allow XC to do more doubling up on its core routes.

 

[Topological]

My personal view would be that trains from the South West (i.e. Plymouth/Exeter/Penzance) should call for connections to/from HS2, certainly in summer, but that there's less need for Bristols/Cardiffs/Oxfords to call. Indeed, one could argue for XC to cut back to Bristol and thus be replaced by using HS2 to Old Oak thence GWR for going to the Westcountry from the North West, as it'll be both faster and less overcrowded and allow XC to do more doubling up on its core routes.

Only focusing on the HS2 connection neglects the other benefits of OOC calls. I sincerely hope that the Cardiff (and West Wales) trains will call.

Cutting XC seems like a good idea, but that leaves Bristol to Taunton light on services.

 

[lachlan]

My personal view would be that trains from the South West (i.e. Plymouth/Exeter/Penzance) should call for connections to/from HS2, certainly in summer, but that there's less need for Bristols/Cardiffs/Oxfords to call. Indeed, one could argue for XC to cut back to Bristol and thus be replaced by using HS2 to Old Oak thence GWR for going to the Westcountry from the North West, as it'll be both faster and less overcrowded and allow XC to do more doubling up on its core routes.

All trains should call to open up HS2 to as many passengers as possible. Going from Chippenham or Bath to Edinburgh or Glasgow, that OOC interchange will allow much tighter journeys. Presumably a minimum connection of 10mins vs 45 or whatever it is for going across London today. And it will be a much more pleasant journey.

 

[stuu]

Yes they should.

My personal view would be that trains from the South West (i.e. Plymouth/Exeter/Penzance) should call for connections to/from HS2, certainly in summer, but that there's less need for Bristols/Cardiffs/Oxfords to call. Indeed, one could argue for XC to cut back to Bristol and thus be replaced by using HS2 to Old Oak thence GWR for going to the Westcountry from the North West, as it'll be both faster and less overcrowded and allow XC to do more doubling up on its core routes.

XC services, even with 8/9 car, are very busy all year round south of Bristol, as are trains to London from the SW. Combining them would be a terrible idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes they should.

XC services, even with 8/9 car, are very busy all year round south of Bristol, as are trains to London from the SW. Combining them would be a terrible idea.

Unless XC cut their fares (or HS2 is particularly expensive) I suspect basically everyone will go that way anyway as it's quicker. Journey planners have an interesting effect on this - another example you keep seeing is that during Midland Mainline bustitution people end up routed via Tamworth as it's quicker than using the replacement buses.

 

[JamesRowden]

My personal view would be that trains from the South West (i.e. Plymouth/Exeter/Penzance) should call for connections to/from HS2, certainly in summer, but that there's less need for Bristols/Cardiffs/Oxfords to call. Indeed, one could argue for XC to cut back to Bristol and thus be replaced by using HS2 to Old Oak thence GWR for going to the Westcountry from the North West, as it'll be both faster and less overcrowded and allow XC to do more doubling up on its core routes.

I think you have got it exactly the wrong way round. It is Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham, Bath and South Wales for which it makes more sense to spend the greater price of having to provide extra capacity into Paddington and HS2 to provide capacity for such journeys. Since those places don't have such a strong Crosscountry Intercity service to Birmingham.

Whereas for Bristol to Penzance, there are journeys along the axis to Birmingham for which a half hourly intercity service is very beneficial for journeys for which Old Oak Common is completely not applicable, such as Cheltenham/Bristol to Taunton/Exeter/Plymouth.

Provide a good service from HS2 destinations to Central Birmingham for connections to a half hourly Plymouth via Cheltenham service, and there is no need to send those psrticular passengers on the intensely used Reading to London corridor.

 

[crablab]

Surely more capacity should be added between London and Reading if existing Elizabeth line and Didcot / Oxford services do not provide enough capacity between London and Reading.

How do you propose doing that?

 

[stuu]

Unless XC cut their fares (or HS2 is particularly expensive) I suspect basically everyone will go that way anyway as it's quicker.

Is it? Taunton to OOC is an hour and a half. 20 minutes change (minimum) onto Hs2 gets you to Birmingham in about 2 hours 40 minutes, which is 40 minutes slower than a direct train.

For Manchester and further north it's a bit quicker but not enough to send everyone that way - it will be down to price more than time

 

[MarkyT]

Is it? Taunton to OOC is an hour and a half. 20 minutes change (minimum) onto Hs2 gets you to Birmingham in about 2 hours 40 minutes, which is 40 minutes slower than a direct train.

For Manchester and further north it's a bit quicker but not enough to send everyone that way - it will be down to price more than time

And the price via OOC is likely to be steep if the journey takes place at times when GWR towards London is already busy. At quieter periods there might be some bargains to be had. Also trusting a 20 minute connection at OOC might be dicy if separate AP tickets were involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the price via OOC is likely to be steep if the journey takes place at times when GWR towards London is already busy. At quieter periods there might be some bargains to be had. Also trusting a 20 minute connection at OOC might be dicy if separate AP tickets were involved.

One journey can involve multiple tickets, so a connection is not "dicey" whether you split or not. That myth isn't particularly helpful.

OK, HS2 *could* theoretically be entirely separate, but while I'd expect it not to have good value walk up tickets (let's put it this way, I think the LNER fare increase trial isn't just about legacy IC, it's a trial for HS2 too) I would absolutely expect it to be part of the National Rail Network (or whatever it's called by then) as far as ticketing goes and have heard absolutely nothing to suggest that it would not be.

 

[MarkyT]

One journey can involve multiple tickets, so a connection is not "dicey" whether you split or not. That myth isn't particularly helpful.

We're talking about changing at OOC. If two separate AP legs were booked split at OOC, surely you could be snookered if the second ticket is only valid on a specific train and you don't arrive in time to catch it.

OK, HS2 *could* theoretically be entirely separate, but while I'd expect it not to have good value walk up tickets (let's put it this way, I think the LNER fare increase trial isn't just about legacy IC, it's a trial for HS2 too) I would absolutely expect it to be part of the National Rail Network (or whatever it's called by then) as far as ticketing goes and have heard absolutely nothing to suggest that it would not be.

I guess you could split at Reading instead and book from there via OOC to Manchester. As long as you were on the booked train from Reading, which you would be already from the west, you'd likely be able to get a later HS2 train if the GWR service was late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're talking about changing at OOC. If two separate AP legs were booked split at OOC, surely you could be snookered if the second ticket is only valid on a specific train and you don't arrive in time to catch it.

No, you couldn't, because you were making one train journey using two tickets, and therefore the second ticket would be valid on the next available* train and Delay Repay would be claimable on the full value of both tickets. It's not Eurostar. It'll be exactly the same as Advances are now.

* If HS2 enforces actual compulsory reservations then this might involve rebooking, of course, but that would be at no cost to you.

I guess you could split at Reading instead and book from there via OOC to Manchester. As long as you were on the booked train from Reading, which you would be already from the west, you'd likely be able to get a later HS2 train if the GWR service was late.

I don't understand your point. Which station you change at makes no difference whatsoever to the fact that you can make one journey using multiple tickets and, if you do, you are entitled to use the next available train if you miss a connection provided you have left appropriate change time per your itinerary.

There is a small chance HS2 runs totally standalone like Eurostar, but I'd be surprised if it did. Most likely it'll all be GBR by then.

Are you getting confused about the slightly debatable situation of crossing London where you have two Advances with a gap in between because they don't meet at one station? In this case they do - Old Oak Common.