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Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

Would you forcibly exit a stranded train after 2 hours of suffering ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 78 43.6%
  • No

    Votes: 101 56.4%

  • Total voters
    179
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OxtedL

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This is from the official inquiry. Don't read it unless you are feeling particularly sturdy.
Passenger 6 was travelling ... with his young daughter and her girl friend. He and his daughter were both sitting adjacent to a window. There was a table between him and the two girls.

[...Description of accident occurring...]

He located his daughter and her friend. It was apparent that as the coach rolled onto its side, they had fallen through a window. They had both become trapped between the side of the coach and the ballast. Sadly, his daughter was dead and her friend was badly injured.
Section 9.5 of http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/RSSB_Ufton001.pdf

Wikipedia has other links, in which it can be seen that "passenger 6" believes laminated windows would have saved his 14-year old daughter.
 
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michael769

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And exactly HOW many people will you be prepared to pay for to do this through the farebox? People who will not do much if anything in the ordinary course of events ?

Are you telling me that when the network grinds to a halt everyone in NR and the ToCs immediately go to work on resolving the problem? Including the Customer Services call centre folks who are no doubt multi skilled and can change roles to engineer, planner or driver as needed? You just need one person to get the info out to the train crews, who (guess what?) have nothing else to do until the problem is resolved.

It's not hard, you just need to have the right attitude something the senior and middle managers in the industry lack.

What surprises me is that none of the front line staff have called out that in such circumstances they are left with 2-3 people to try to handle 200+ increasingly angry and frustrated passengers, with absolutely no support whatsoever. Perhaps if their line managers spend more of their time actually doing their job by providing their reports with the support and resources needed to deal with such situations and less time blaming them for their own inability to run an efficient railway, we might have a railway that was fit for purpose and affordable.
 

WelshBluebird

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What surprises me is that none of the front line staff have called out that in such circumstances they are left with 2-3 people to try to handle 200+ increasingly angry and frustrated passengers, with absolutely no support whatsoever. Perhaps if their line managers spend more of their time actually doing their job by providing their reports with the support and resources needed to deal with such situations and less time blaming them for their own inability to run an efficient railway, we might have a railway that was fit for purpose and affordable.

I have to agree with this.
There have been quite a few times in the last year where the train I am on has been delayed and I have had access to more information via my iPhone (national rail website, twitter, ToC website) than the staff onboard the train (or if they did have the information they weren't telling people about it). How on earth has that situation come about? It is madness.
 

EM2

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The line manager of frontline staff (a driver, a revenue inspector, a customer service assistant) is not going to be best placed to disseminate that information, because that's not their function.
Information would be passed via Route Control, and they would only make definite decisions after consultation with all stakeholders involved (TOC & NR as an absolute minimum).
I'm sure Old Timer is better placed than I to fill in the details of railway management structure and information flows.
 

SouthEastern-465

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How can you blame them? Stuck for hours on a broken down (probably no aircon), crowded train in weather like this, with no information about how long they will be stuck for, no access to drinking water, etc.

I think they'd be quite justified to force their way out. Better that than having people suffering heatstroke, dehydration, etc. How bad would it be for the railways (NR, TOC, etc.) if somebody had died on board the train due to the heat?

Class 465 do have aircon, but its not brilliant to tell the truth.

I can see both points really. Back in December 2009, I was stuck on a packed 'Networker' when it was snowing and limited services were running, and if I thought it was baking hot than I couldn't imagine what it would be like on one of the hottest days of the year so far.

But to risk there own safety going down on an electrified line where the 3rd rail is literally just next to the track is basically suicide. I just have an image of someone not meaning to touch it and getting killed.

And regardless of what class or type of train it is, if its packed and your stuck on its not going to be a pleasent experience.
 

Wolfie

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Some thoughts from a passenger perspective (incidentally one who was involved in a major fatal transport accident, albeit not on the railways).

Logically I am sure that what the railway staff on here say about staying with a train being the safest option is entirely correct, and yet....

I have travelled on the East Coast mainline on a service with failed air-conditioning in EVERY Standard carriage in the middle of summer. Even with the free provision of large quantities of liquids conditions were vile (not even the option to open a single window) and tempers were rather frayed. Had animals been conveyed in such conditions prosecutions would have followed....and those who say just tough it out obviously did not see the story about the two police dogs who died yesterday in a closed vehicle - yes conditions really WERE that bad.....

I have also been stuck on a failed Bakerloo line train between Oxford Circus and Piccadilly (ie no real distance) in mid-summer for over an hour. As firstly temperatures climbed, and then some of the emergency lights went out (battery life?) the situation is unnerving at best. I do not suffer from claustrophobia or fear of the dark but there were people on the train who did and they had a really bad time. Worse still when we finally got moving was the London Underground response - there were two staff members on the platform at Piccadilly with a single case (yes 24 bottles!) of water for a train load of people - a truely pathetic response! And this was not long after an incident of much longer duration on the tube when a number of passengers were taken very seriously ill.......

What staff members forget is that people have fears and worries - these can be mitigated to some extent by regular information supply but the fact remains that sitting (or in the ruch hour more likely standing!) on a failed train in the heat of day can take almost super-human control - they also assume that people will always act in a logical manner, something that is papably incorrect.

Make no mistake the whole railway industry will effectively find itself on trail in the court of public opinion should a passenger die of heat-stroke, heart attack or similar in such a situation. The general public (those who many of you have been content to describe as fools) pay, thorugh the fare box or taxes, for the railways and they will not accept the treatment which greedy TOCs or completely inept industry practices (an hour plus for any action - sorry, YOUR pathetic system is NOT fit for purpose!) currently see fit to put them through. As for prosecutions, I rather think Old Timer in particular has forgotten that it is from that very same general public that any jury would be drawn!
 

ralphchadkirk

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Look, people are not going to die on the train. It will never get to that point, as the emergency services can always be got to the scene if it becomes necessary.
 

SouthEastern-465

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Look, people are not going to die on the train. It will never get to that point, as the emergency services can always be got to the scene if it becomes necessary.

I assume you've been on a fully packed 'Networker' thats failed and there literally no where to move and the heat is terrible? Don't get me wrong I'm 50/50 at the moment.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I assume you've been on a fully packed 'Networker' thats failed and there literally no where to move and the heat is terrible? Don't get me wrong I'm 50/50 at the moment.

It may be uncomfortable, but people are not going to die. The people at risk are those with pre-existing conditions, pregnancy, the young or the elderly. If there is someone who is becoming ill, then you pull the emergency cord and ask the guard to get an ambulance crew to the train. People are not going to die. If someone in the next year (until June 28th 2012) dies on a train that is stationary for a long period of time as a result of the heat then I will make a £20 donation to the charity of your choice.
 

SouthEastern-465

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It may be uncomfortable, but people are not going to die. The people at risk are those with pre-existing conditions, pregnancy, the young or the elderly. If there is someone who is becoming ill, then you pull the emergency cord and ask the guard to get an ambulance crew to the train. People are not going to die. If someone in the next year (until June 28th 2012) dies on a train that is stationary for a long period of time as a result of the heat then I will make a £20 donation to the charity of your choice.

But on the other hand theres the a larger risk walking near the 3rd rail if you don't know what your doing. Was it turned off when the train itself broke down?
 

strange6

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It may be uncomfortable, but people are not going to die. The people at risk are those with pre-existing conditions, pregnancy, the young or the elderly. If there is someone who is becoming ill, then you pull the emergency cord and ask the guard to get an ambulance crew to the train. People are not going to die. If someone in the next year (until June 28th 2012) dies on a train that is stationary for a long period of time as a result of the heat then I will make a £20 donation to the charity of your choice.

Don't underestimate the seriousness of heat-stroke, Ralph. It's a very serious condition.
 

ainsworth74

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Yeah, they are so much worse at walking than men:roll:

High heeled shoes are not appropriate footwear for walking track side or over ballast and neither are bare feet. Now obviously not all women ware high heels but even if it's just ten or so that's still a logistical problem to an evacuation.

Indeed if you read OT's post you will see he explains what he means by that just a couple of lines later.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Don't underestimate the seriousness of heat-stroke, Ralph. It's a very serious condition.

I'm not underestimating it; it's very dangerous. But it's also quite unlikely for someone to suffer full blown heatstroke as a result of being stuck on a train in summer. It would have made the news if it had happened by now! As I said, someone is unlikely to progress to heatstroke as long as when they start feeling the symptoms they get help rather than deciding they'll sit it out.
 

blue sabre

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I'm not underestimating it; it's very dangerous. But it's also quite unlikely for someone to suffer full blown heatstroke as a result of being stuck on a train in summer. It would have made the news if it had happened by now! As I said, someone is unlikely to progress to heatstroke as long as when they start feeling the symptomsj they get help rather than deciding they'll sit it out.

Read your last sentence - what do you think these people thought they were doing? As far as they could tell help wasn't coming.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Read your last sentence - what do you think these people thought they were doing? As far as they could tell help wasn't coming.

I wonder if any of them were suffering heat stroke (probably not), had tried to seek the help of the guard (probably not), had pulled the emergency cord (probably not) or requested that an ambulance attend the train (probably not)? Therefore there was no reason to leave. If someone is genuinely ill then I would expect them, or another person to inform the guard who will arrange medical help. The guard can then decide the best course of action.
 

SouthEastern-465

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I'm not underestimating it; it's very dangerous. But it's also quite unlikely for someone to suffer full blown heatstroke as a result of being stuck on a train in summer. It would have made the news if it had happened by now! As I said, someone is unlikely to progress to heatstroke as long as when they start feeling the symptoms they get help rather than deciding they'll sit it out.

It was 30 degrees yesterday, I thought it was bad enough with the heat in the winter. The heat was unbearable I could not move, or breathe good and that was after about 5 mins.

Imagine 30 degrees on a train full of people which would make it even hotter, with air conditioning that barely works I could imagine some people would dehydrate which I've also suffered before and not somthing I want to experience again.
 

Old Timer

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Are you telling me that when the network grinds to a halt everyone in NR and the ToCs immediately go to work on resolving the problem? Including the Customer Services call centre folks who are no doubt multi skilled and can change roles to engineer, planner or driver as needed? You just need one person to get the info out to the train crews, who (guess what?) have nothing else to do until the problem is resolved.

It's not hard, you just need to have the right attitude something the senior and middle managers in the industry lack.

What surprises me is that none of the front line staff have called out that in such circumstances they are left with 2-3 people to try to handle 200+ increasingly angry and frustrated passengers, with absolutely no support whatsoever. Perhaps if their line managers spend more of their time actually doing their job by providing their reports with the support and resources needed to deal with such situations and less time blaming them for their own inability to run an efficient railway, we might have a railway that was fit for purpose and affordable.
A long post and one full of assumptions and hypotheses that a little reflection would have demonstrated are flawed.

Firstly the passenger pays through the farebox for all staff costs ultimately. Control offices are staffed to deal with the expected peaks and can deal with extraordinary situations such as the scenario that is being discussed but with lesser efficiency.

It is NOT either logical or sensible to man control offices to be able to deal with irregular or rare failure scenario. The emergency services operate on the same basis and any major incident like 7/7 or the Cumbria shootings requires off duty staff to be brought in to support.

If you want control offices staffed to deal with any and every eventuality then I am sure the Industry will be delighted to do so, but YOU will be paying for that luxury in increased ticket costs. Your call.

During major incidents there is considerable work to be done and telephone calls increase exponentionally in these cases. Staff have to deal with setting up a strategy, which has to be based upon information that may not be to hand for an hour or so. They also have to work out the logistics of how they are going to modify the service.

So a question for you.

During the hour or so that normally elapses before an estimate can be given, what would YOU do. Cancel all services travelling to/from the affected area, even from long distance origins?

What about train crew ? Are you going to leave those on the trains to fend for themselves or are you going to look at what may be necessary to be done to find them relief ?

What would YOU do about other services that they are due to operate ? Will you cancel them as well or will you try to get train crew from off duty, thus running the risk of impacting the following day's services ?

Will you make an assumption in the first hour as to the likelihood of the incident being just a simple failure rather than a theft somewhere along a line of route that can only be identified by walking it from end to end ?

Will you make an immediate assumption that it will be major, implement major changes and cancellations and then discover that it will be resolved within a short period of time ?

Remember whatever decision YOU make will be criticised by armchair warriors such as yourself and dissected with intricacy in the comfort of absolute hindsight ?

Now remember that whilst all this is going on in the TOC control, a similar scenario will be worked out within the Network Rail Control.

Your posts suggests that the Signalman (as it will either be them or the TOC control who will speak to them) will have nothing more to do with his/her time than sit down and drink tea
You just need one person to get the info out to the train crews, who (guess what?) have nothing else to do until the problem is resolved.
This quite misses the point that both parties will be working hard to in the one case try to move trains if possible, and will perhaps be reversing trains away from the area, and in the other will be trying to set up alternative arrangements.

Nobody suggests that there are some areas where things cannot be improved but many of these are locked in by legal constraints.

A railway cannot be always run on the basis of "common sense" firstly because common sense is far from common, but also what is common sense to you will most certainly not be common sense to me or others. Operational procedures and rules are necessary to ensure the proper regulation of activities in every organisation throughout Industry. I doubt that you would wish the Nuclear Industry or the Gas Industry to work on the basis of "common sense" yet you seem to believe that the Railway Industry is populated by idiot managers.

I suggest this says much about your perceptions of other people.

As I said at the start IF you want a Rolls Royce service then that can easily be arranged but not if you only want to pay for a mini.

Until that time major disruptive incidents - albeit not as common as people seem to believe - will occur from time to time. Like the major closures of Motorways little can be done to mitigate them without fairly major expenditure which would have to be recovered.
 

DiscoStu

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I'd have done the same thing! Sod roasting to death in that sweatbox!

You're only in danger of electrocution if you step near the third rail, obviously. If you're careful and jump well clear, you'll be fine.
 

ralphchadkirk

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It was 30 degrees yesterday, I thought it was bad enough with the heat in the winter. The heat was unbearable I could not move, or breathe good and that was after about 5 mins.

Imagine 30 degrees on a train full of people which would make it even hotter, with air conditioning that barely works I could imagine some people would dehydrate which I've also suffered before and not somthing I want to experience again.

As I have said twice before, if someone is feeling genuinely ill (not just hot, uncomfortable or thirsty!), if someone is actually feeling dehydrated, is suffering low blood pressure etc then they should pull the emergency cord, or inform the guard. They will be able to provide the best course of action.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd have done the same thing! Sod roasting to death in that sweatbox!

You're only in danger of electrocution if you step near the third rail, obviously. If you're careful and jump well clear, you'll be fine.

What about loosing a foot in points, being hit by another train, being electrocuted on another bit of infrastructure (the 3rd rail and the OHLE are NOT the only live bits) or slipping on a sleeper and breaking your leg or pelvis?
 

SouthEastern-465

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As I have said twice before, if someone is feeling genuinely ill (not just hot, uncomfortable or thirsty!), if someone is actually feeling dehydrated, is suffering low blood pressure etc then they should pull the emergency cord, or inform the guard. They will be able to provide the best course of action.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What about loosing a foot in points, being hit by another train, being electrocuted on another bit of infrastructure (the 3rd rail and the OHLE are NOT the only live bits) or slipping on a sleeper and breaking your leg or pelvis?

Thats why I'm 50/50 on this.

Its dangerous either way. :)
 

GB

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I'd have done the same thing! Sod roasting to death in that sweatbox!

You're only in danger of electrocution if you step near the third rail, obviously. If you're careful and jump well clear, you'll be fine.

That posts just goes to prove you are not fully aware of the dangers of walking on or near the line as electrocution is only one of the dangers.
 

Holly

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It will never get to that point, as the emergency services can always be got to the scene if it becomes necessary.
Without information people on the train do not know that.
For all they know the entire network could be stopped nationwide and no-one is coming. Ever.

The has to come a time at which people say "to hell with it, direct action is needed". Just how long would you propose people wait without information?

As to the third rail every adult knows what it is and that it is probable death to touch it. Heck, "touching the third rail" is used as an idiom for suicide in a context unrelated to railways sometimes.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Without information people on the train do not know that.
For all they know the entire network could be stopped nationwide and no-one is coming. Ever.

:roll: You honestly think that a train would just be left, forever with no contact?! It almost isn't worth replying to. The access of the emergency services has nothing to do with the state of the network, or location. They can be flown, driven or walked in, and met by a NR MOM to escort them to the ill passenger.

With regards to your point about information, there are usually more than one emergency alarms in each carriage, and stickers near them explaining what they're for and how to use them. There are also usually posters up with safety information, and sometimes leaflets or cards.
As to the third rail every adult knows what it is and that it is probable death to touch it. Heck, "touching the third rail" is used as an idiom for suicide in a context unrelated to railways sometimes.
Have you not read all the other posts where people have pointed out the third rail is NOT the only danger?
 

ushawk

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Without information people on the train do not know that.
For all they know the entire network could be stopped nationwide and no-one is coming. Ever.

The has to come a time at which people say "to hell with it, direct action is needed". Just how long would you propose people wait without information?

As to the third rail every adult knows what it is and that it is probable death to touch it. Heck, "touching the third rail" is used as an idiom for suicide in a context unrelated to railways sometimes.

As i said, so leave a train without any official telling you to which is possibly deadly (for many reasons already posted in this topic) as a way of "protesting" against the TOC's and NR ? Its all well and good knowing where it is, but what if you trip on something, slip on something else, then you could fall onto the line.

And with social networking being around now, people are getting a lot of information from that, although it is conflicting. And with stopping the network "nationwide" and no information coming "ever", i do believe that is quite over the top.
 

GB

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As to the third rail every adult knows what it is and that it is probable death to touch it. Heck, "touching the third rail" is used as an idiom for suicide in a context unrelated to railways sometimes.

"Every adult"? not bleeding likley. Some of the people I have met think power comes from the running rails, even on lines that are not electrified. Given that CRE can still catch railway staff out I don't hold out much hope for passengers. It only takes one stumble...

For all they know the entire network could be stopped nationwide and no-one is coming. Ever.

If they honestly think that then how can they be trusted to look after themselfs on the line?
 

Wolfie

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I wonder if any of them were suffering heat stroke (probably not), had tried to seek the help of the guard (probably not), had pulled the emergency cord (probably not) or requested that an ambulance attend the train (probably not)? Therefore there was no reason to leave. If someone is genuinely ill then I would expect them, or another person to inform the guard who will arrange medical help. The guard can then decide the best course of action.

Potentially coming soon to UK rail staff and managers:

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...ilway-company-after-riders-suffer-heat-stroke
 

ralphchadkirk

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Old Timer

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...You're only in danger of electrocution if you step near the third rail, obviously. If you're careful and jump well clear, you'll be fine.
Jumping is a far from sensible or easy thing to do. How would you cross over a section where both the 3rd rails are in the 6-foot ?

There are many other hidden hazards which can trap and injure the unwary very quickly. Also not all cables that are dangerous are insulated.

People will make a beeline for the cable trough route in all probability because it looks like a good solid, safe, walking route. The truth is that it is actaully the opposite and cracked or twisted liods will easily lead to twisted ankles at best and more serious injuries at worst.

Some concrete lids which may appear to be secure can actually fail leading falls into catchpits and inspection pits which will lead to serious injury or in the case of a small child a high probability of a major injury or drowning.

There are then dangers from certain wild plants which populate the trackside and which in some cases can even lead to severe skin injury if the sap comes into contact with bare skin.

All these issues relating to the lineside infrastructure are not always recognised even by trains crews (no disrespect intended) because they are not trained in the recognition of these hazards.

Even if people do get to an access point, it may not always be suitable or indeed safe for any large form of road transport to stop on the carriageway to pick people up.

These are some of the issues that under Health & Safety Law now have to be assessed before any detrainment can take place.
 

Wolfie

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In the above I can see a case for smashing windows and opening doors, and assisting the ill out. In any case, they are only being charged as they knew there was an aircon fault - slightly different to the situation we are discussing.

Ralph

Less different than you may like to admit - the rail industry has ALREADY done the relevant research....

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T626_rb_final.pdf

Have the lessons been learnt? Have they heck! If the rail industry knows the problem and does nothing it WILL be held to account, very possibly in the courts....

Incidentally, how many of the palliative measures suggested were applied in the recent incidents? My best guess would be approximately......ZERO!
 
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