Caledonian Sleeper

[GordonT]

The Highlander doesn't even stop at Watford now as it used to.

Probably would be an added nuisance when sleepers are diverted via ECML?

 

[enginedin]

I've just found out tonight's northbound lowland service is cancelled (due to a "police incident" ), and presumably at fairly short notice - it's on their website but not twitter x.

Ticket acceptance is in-place for a set of LNER and Avanti services in the morning, but from a pragmatic point of view, what happens to the 100-ish(??) passengers who now have to find somewhere to stay until 5.30 am? Do CS find them hotel rooms?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've just found out tonight's northbound lowland service is cancelled (due to a "police incident" ), and presumably at fairly short notice - it's on their website but not twitter x.

Ticket acceptance is in-place for a set of LNER and Avanti services in the morning, but from a pragmatic point of view, what happens to the 100-ish(??) passengers who now have to find somewhere to stay until 5.30 am? Do CS find them hotel rooms?

This sort of thing has led to the passengers being allowed to stay on the sleeper until the alternative day train is available. As it is a "police incident" perhaps the train itself is OK but just cannot do the journey overnight.

 

[greatkingrat]

That's odd because it seems to be running normally

Realtime Trains | 1S26 2350 London Euston to Glasgow Central and Edinburgh | 20/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S26 2350 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central and Edinburgh on 20/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I guess it might be running empty for some reason? Although the timings appear to show it stopped at Watford Jn.

EDIT: The Sleeper website just says it is cancelled to Edinburgh, so maybe it is running, but only to Glasgow?

 

[MadMac]

That's odd because it seems to be running normally

Realtime Trains | 1S26 2350 London Euston to Glasgow Central and Edinburgh | 20/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S26 2350 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central and Edinburgh on 20/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I guess it might be running empty for some reason? Although the timings appear to show it stopped at Watford Jn.

EDIT: The Sleeper website just says it is cancelled to Edinburgh, so maybe it is running, but only to Glasgow?

Just passing Cheddington as I type.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Just passing Cheddington as I type.

How many coaches ?.

 

[enginedin]

ah: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P01179/2025-03-21/detailed



(although assuming it's between Carstairs and Edinburgh I'm surprised they've cancelled it - I think I'd have naively expected the line to be open within 6 hours)

I had noticed that the website only said "London to Edinburgh is cancelled" and thought it was a bit strange that it didn't mention Glasgow; the other thing that threw me a bit was that ticket acceptance is in place for the first Avanti Euston to Glasgow service in the morning

How many coaches ?.

14, according to RealTimeTrains

This sort of thing has led to the passengers being allowed to stay on the sleeper until the alternative day train is available.

so, now that there isn't a Sleeper service at Euston for the passengers to stay on, my original question still stands...

 

[Peter Sarf]

ah: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P01179/2025-03-21/detailed



(although assuming it's between Carstairs and Edinburgh I'm surprised they've cancelled it - I think I'd have naively expected the line to be open within 6 hours)

I had noticed that the website only said "London to Edinburgh is cancelled" and thought it was a bit strange that it didn't mention Glasgow; the other thing that threw me a bit was that ticket acceptance is in place for the first Avanti Euston to Glasgow service in the morning


14, according to RealTimeTrains


so, now that there isn't a Sleeper service at Euston for the passengers to stay on, my original question still stands...

Puzzling.

As for your question - I cannot believe CS would resort to hotel rooms and a daytime service given a service to Glasgow seems possible (see below).

Yes, looks like the Glasgow portion is still operating and with the Edinburgh portion with it to Glasgow. If so and if I was a passenger for Edinburgh I would expect the option of going to Glasgow seeing as that is where the entire formation is going - on the face of it. That would get me to Edinburgh via Glasgow earlier than a hotel in London, early awakening and an early service to Glasgow or Edinburgh.

 

[Bill57p9]

I do not believe that any of the platforms at Glasgow Central can accommodate a full 16 coach train. Therefore the issue may be around having the Edinburgh portion hanging off the end of the platform. It does appear that the Glasgow portion has been reallocated into platform 11 at Glasgow Central, which may be related to the portion being longer than usual.

All that said, if the situation really is that the Edinburgh portion has been cancelled due to a line closure between Carstairs and Edinburgh, I would like to think that there is a different solution to the one explained above: CS seem to usually be pretty good at battling on when others (ScotRail ahem) have thrown in the towel.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I happen to live near the junction between the Maryhill Line and North Clyde Line in Glasgow, and usually the Sleeper, after passing through Westerton, heads down the North Clyde Line and through Anniesland. Imagine my surprise when I heard the diesel engine heading down the Maryhill Line last night. Does this happen often- I don’t recall it happening before- and why would this be? Local trains were still running so the line was not closed.

 

[Carntyne]

I happen to live near the junction between the Maryhill Line and North Clyde Line in Glasgow, and usually the Sleeper, after passing through Westerton, heads down the North Clyde Line and through Anniesland. Imagine my surprise when I heard the diesel engine heading down the Maryhill Line last night. Does this happen often- I don’t recall it happening before- and why would this be? Local trains were still running so the line was not closed.

The line was closed at Caldercruix, so it went via the E&G

 

[johncrossley]

They've cancelled tonight's Sleeper from Edinburgh. Why can't they allow them to join at Glasgow?

 

[Peter Sarf]

They've cancelled tonight's Sleeper from Edinburgh. Why can't they allow them to join at Glasgow?

I cannot help thinking this means there is a problem with some of the stock. Lets see what the formation is tonight.

Speculation but maybe the incident was within that portion and enquiries are ongoing.

 

[enginedin]

Speculation but maybe the incident was within that portion and enquiries are ongoing.

ohh, I don't know if this is relevant, but the cancellation code is VC ("Fatalities and or injuries sustained whilst on a platform as the result of being struck by a train or falling from a train"), not XC ("Fatalities or injuries caused by being hit by train (Including non-intentional)")...

Delay Attribution Guide - Open Rail Data Wiki

 

[norbitonflyer]

I do not believe that any of the platforms at Glasgow Central can accommodate a full 16 coach train.

I seem to recall an occasion not long ago when the train couldn't be divided at Carstairs for some reason so the full formation was terminated at Motherwell (then empty to Polmadie), presumably because Glasgow Central couldn't handle 16 coaches but Motherwell could

 

[jagardner1984]

I now can’t find the post - but I remember the issue was less the train being too long (it is too long at various calling points) but that the coupling manoeuvre for the ECS loco would foul up much of the throat at GLC for a protracted period of time, and therefore would cause chaos to get it out the way in the peak, which would tie in with the above of a Motherwell termination and straight run into Polmadie.

One would imagine though most of the passengers would prefer to at least begin their day in the country which they intended to be, rather than be left to fend for themselves on the morning Avanti / LNER.

Presumably there is more going on here, since as others have commented in, CS are usually very good at maintaining some sort of end destination service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I now can’t find the post - but I remember the issue was less the train being too long (it is too long at various calling points) but that the coupling manoeuvre for the ECS loco would foul up much of the throat at GLC for a protracted period of time, and therefore would cause chaos to get it out the way in the peak, which would tie in with the above of a Motherwell termination and straight run into Polmadie.

One would imagine though most of the passengers would prefer to at least begin their day in the country which they intended to be, rather than be left to fend for themselves on the morning Avanti / LNER.

Presumably there is more going on here, since as others have commented in, CS are usually very good at maintaining some sort of end destination service.

If it is true that it was 14 coaches last night then the loco to take it back was probable within the platform/section length.

I agree, very few people would want to hang around at Euston for the night (even in hotels) when they could get a lot nearer to their destination. Especially true for those going on from Edinburgh who probaly could get to their destination almost on time from Glasgow.

 

[MadCommuter]

I do not believe that any of the platforms at Glasgow Central can accommodate a full 16 coach train. Therefore the issue may be around having the Edinburgh portion hanging off the end of the platform. It does appear that the Glasgow portion has been reallocated into platform 11 at Glasgow Central, which may be related to the portion being longer than usual.

All that said, if the situation really is that the Edinburgh portion has been cancelled due to a line closure between Carstairs and Edinburgh, I would like to think that there is a different solution to the one explained above: CS seem to usually be pretty good at battling on when others (ScotRail ahem) have thrown in the towel.

I saw it in P11 at Glasgow Central this morning. Interestingly, traksy has 1M11 in P10 tonight.

 

[Bill57p9]

I saw it in P11 at Glasgow Central this morning. Interestingly, traksy has 1M11 in P10 tonight.

1M11 is usually allocated Glasgow Central platform 10.

 

[Falcon1200]

but I remember the issue was less the train being too long (it is too long at various calling points) but that the coupling manoeuvre for the ECS loco would foul up much of the throat at GLC for a protracted period of time

That was indeed the issue; Before I retired in 2016 there was the odd occasion when we (NR Control) agreed for the full train to go to Central; IIRC this was most often when it was extremely late, meaning no Driver at Carstairs for the Edinburgh portion, and therefore arriving at Central after the morning peak so having less of an impact.

 

[DelW]

That was indeed the issue; Before I retired in 2016 there was the odd occasion when we (NR Control) agreed for the full train to go to Central; IIRC this was most often when it was extremely late, meaning no Driver at Carstairs for the Edinburgh portion, and therefore arriving at Central after the morning peak so having less of an impact.

In the event of the Carstairs to Edinburgh line being unavailable, would it be possible to split the train at Carstairs as normal, but to run both portions to Glasgow? That would presumably avoid the issue of platform length at GLC, but crew's route knowledge might prevent it. Would Edinburgh crews know the Glasgow route?

 

[Deepgreen]

In the event of the Carstairs to Edinburgh line being unavailable, would it be possible to split the train at Carstairs as normal, but to run both portions to Glasgow? That would presumably avoid the issue of platform length at GLC, but crew's route knowledge might prevent it. Would Edinburgh crews know the Glasgow route?

Oh, I would really hope such a straightforward and logical thing would be the case, but on the modern railway...?

A shot from my recent run up to FW, showing both forms of motive power. The second shot shows a small niggle - on the same screen in the club coach one element of the screen said the next station would be Corrour, while the other element said Tulloch, simultaneously! This went on for a long time - just another annoying example of how information has seemingly become so hard to get right, even on a simple route.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Oh, I would really hope such a straightforward and logical thing would be the case, but on the modern railway...?

The main barrier to it crewing wise is that the guard for the Edinburgh portion has worked all the way from London so may well be out of hours.

The driver books on at Polmadie, van to Carstairs then starts up the loco that’s been left there overnight, then drives Carstairs - the Waverley - Polmadie and books off, so that’s less of an issue

Guard for Glasgow portion works Glasgow - Carlisle - Glasgow in the one night so again no issue there.

But the length at Central is the major consideration. I was on one that went all the way into Central as the one train once (delayed by about 4 hours by a loss of signalling at Colwich) but that was in 2018 so probably one of the last

 

[Peter Sarf]

Oh, I would really hope such a straightforward and logical thing would be the case, but on the modern railway...?

A shot from my recent run up to FW, showing both forms of motive power. The second shot shows a small niggle - on the same screen in the club coach one element of the screen said the next station would be Corrour, while the other element said Tulloch, simultaneously! This went on for a long time - just another annoying example of how information has seemingly become so hard to get right, even on a simple route.
View attachment 176950
View attachment 176952

I presume it thought it was at Tulloch.

The main barrier to it crewing wise is that the guard for the Edinburgh portion has worked all the way from London so may well be out of hours.

The driver books on at Polmadie, van to Carstairs then starts up the loco that’s been left there overnight, then drives Carstairs - the Waverley - Polmadie and books off, so that’s less of an issue

Guard for Glasgow portion works Glasgow - Carlisle - Glasgow in the one night so again no issue there.

But the length at Central is the major consideration. I was on one that went all the way into Central as the one train once (delayed by about 4 hours by a loss of signalling at Colwich) but that was in 2018 so probably one of the last

I assume only out of hours if the route to Edinburgh being shut caused delays ?.

---

Do we know why the Edinburgh portion on Thursday night did not go to Edinburgh ?.

 

[Deepgreen]

I presume it thought it was at Tulloch.


I assume only out of hours if the route to Edinburgh being shut caused delays ?.

---

Do we know why the Edinburgh portion on Thursday night did not go to Edinburgh ?.

Yes, presumably, but it shouldn't. There's no point in having next station information like this if it is unreliable. It's not just CS that suffers from this, I see a similar thing very frequently elsewhere.

The main barrier to it crewing wise is that the guard for the Edinburgh portion has worked all the way from London so may well be out of hours.

The driver books on at Polmadie, van to Carstairs then starts up the loco that’s been left there overnight, then drives Carstairs - the Waverley - Polmadie and books off, so that’s less of an issue

Guard for Glasgow portion works Glasgow - Carlisle - Glasgow in the one night so again no issue there.

But the length at Central is the major consideration. I was on one that went all the way into Central as the one train once (delayed by about 4 hours by a loss of signalling at Colwich) but that was in 2018 so probably one of the last

Indeed, but the question was around the crew knowing the route, whether they are in hours or not. I can imagine the number of times the situation arises where both portions could go to Glasgow AND the crews are in hours is very small, but at least having the route knowledge would allow it.

 

[Jim2503]

This is on my bucket list to use both sleepers!

 

[godfreycomplex]

I assume only out of hours if the route to Edinburgh being shut caused delays ?.

More “they don’t have the hours to work to Glasgow then pass back to Edinburgh from there”

Pretty certain Carstairs - Waverley is a core route for the Sleeper so guards/drivers wouldn’t be passed out if they didn’t sign it, so the number of crews from the requisite depots with no route knowledge over that section is virtually nil. Most route knowledge problems for the sleeper in recent years have related to the Highlander north of Edinburgh.

 

[DelW]

More “they don’t have the hours to work to Glasgow then pass back to Edinburgh from there”

Genuine question here, would it matter if train crew (driver or guard) ran out of hours while travelling passenger back to base to sign off? (E.g. if they were Edinburgh crew whose portion had been diverted to Glasgow.)

Obviously they'd need to be paid for the extra hours, but there wouldn't seem to be any safety implications, and they could presumably have a nap on the way if the stock was comfortable enough. But maybe there are agreements that crew have to be able to get back to base within their permitted hours?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Obviously they'd need to be paid for the extra hours, but there wouldn't seem to be any safety implications, and they could presumably have a nap on the way if the stock was comfortable enough. But maybe there are agreements that crew have to be able to get back to base within their permitted hours?

I could see it causing problems for the next day's service if there wasn't sufficient time between booking off and booking back on again for an adequate rest period.

 

[DelW]

I could see it causing problems for the next day's service if there wasn't sufficient time between booking off and booking back on again for an adequate rest period.

Yes, I can see that might be an issue, particularly for a service like CS with more-or-less fixed hours and shift patterns.