Reading Buses and Thames Valley

[cactustwirly]

Which is why I'd only initially trial it on the 17 and perhaps 5/6/21 afterwards.
With the 17, they've upgraded frequency, introduced the red route parking restrictions, and this would be the next step to improve the route (especially journey times) before any sort of proper BRT/tram system.

It doesn't stop the machines becoming a target, it stops the drivers becoming a target. Cash in transit services are run by professionals who are trained how to deal with those seeking to commit robbery, drivers are not.

Not necessarily.

Imagine if all tickets on the 17 at least were purchasable off bus though. Imagine how much time you'd save in the travel peak.

Fair enough

Whether signal actually functions or not in plenty of areas covered by the Ofcom maps is debatable.

Reading isn't London though, and it runs a mix of routes with lots of different fare types (unless you're advocating a tap-on/no tap-off flat fare system with a single set somewhere between £1.50 and £1.75, similar to London, which would be a fair compromise).

Whitley and Oxy Road in particular are hubs for crackheads who will do anything to get their next fix. I wouldn't take my wallet out beforehand anywhere near those areas for that reason. Your average crackhead can't ram raid a ticket machine luckily.

The routes you are suggesting are all flat fare.

The bus stops on the 21 are sparsely used the further out from Reading, it's very similar to the 26. It would be very expensive for little benefit

Most people on the 17 use app tickets or tap on tap off anyway.

Not familiar with Whitley, I know it has a bad rep.
Oxford Road I've travelled down a few times and I wouldn't say it was an issue

 

[Deerfold]

It doesn't stop the machines becoming a target, it stops the drivers becoming a target. Cash in transit services are run by professionals who are trained how to deal with those seeking to commit robbery, drivers are not.

Again, I'm not talking about the drivers collecting the money from the machines. I'm talking about the machines. Sat there with money in.

Not necessarily.

Tell me more. Why are they not?

Whitley and Oxy Road in particular are hubs for crackheads who will do anything to get their next fix. I wouldn't take my wallet out beforehand anywhere near those areas for that reason. Your average crackhead can't ram raid a ticket machine luckily.

It doesn't need many to start doing it. How are these ticket machines going to be more secure than those at rail stations (all the ones at unmanned stations near me are card only)?

 

[Jimini]

As a relative newbie to this area of Reading (nearest bus stop is Foxhill Road), has there ever been a Sunday service on the 19a/b/c (little oranges), or any chance of one in the future?

 

[Thames99]

As a relative newbie to this area of Reading (nearest bus stop is Foxhill Road), has there ever been a Sunday service on the 19a/b/c (little oranges), or any chance of one in the future?

I don't think there has ever been a Sunday service on these routes and it's probably not likely as I think they are reliant on a subsidy from Wokingham who are probably not flush with money. You're not too far from RBH S Wing where other routes run on Sundays.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The routes you are suggesting are all flat fare.

The bus stops on the 21 are sparsely used the further out from Reading, it's very similar to the 26. It would be very expensive for little benefit

Most people on the 17 use app tickets or tap on tap off anyway.

Not familiar with Whitley, I know it has a bad rep.
Oxford Road I've travelled down a few times and I wouldn't say it was an issue

I meant that flat fare would be more of a network-wide solution to avoid confusion.
The 20/21 are dissimilar to the 26 in that they have that densely used section to both uni campuses, the 26 is more purely residential (and the Lower Earley ASDA is also a draw, while the Savacentre is more strongly car-orientated IMHO with the proximity to the West Berks villages and the M4).
Yep, Whitley can be dodgy at all hours, sadly.
With Oxford Road, it depends on the time, but being able to board quickly, having bought a ticket before boarding and not having to get your card out in the evening would be a safety improvement.

As a relative newbie to this area of Reading (nearest bus stop is Foxhill Road), has there ever been a Sunday service on the 19a/b/c (little oranges), or any chance of one in the future?

I think there was pre-recession, but a lot of services got cut back then. Some from that era have recently returned though (the 18 Tilehurst - Kentwood - Norcot Jcn - Portman Road - Rivermead - central Reading), so I wouldn't lose hope.

Again, I'm not talking about the drivers collecting the money from the machines. I'm talking about the machines. Sat there with money in.

A ticket machine is an inanimate object that can be insured.

Tell me more. Why are they not?

There are options for tickets that can be validated off bus after purchase if desired.

It doesn't need many to start doing it. How are these ticket machines going to be more secure than those at rail stations (all the ones at unmanned stations near me are card only)?

Well, I think you're WY based and those stations don't have a 24 hour service, while the bus routes I'm suggesting to trial off-bus ticket machines on do (limited opportunities to vandalise a machine to gain entry with buses passing relatively frequently even at night).

 

[Deerfold]

A ticket machine is an inanimate object that can be insured.

Ah, more cost.

There are options for tickets that can be validated off bus after purchase if desired.

You seem reluctant to actually explain how this would work.

Well, I think you're WY based and those stations don't have a 24 hour service, while the bus routes I'm suggesting to trial off-bus ticket machines on do (limited opportunities to vandalise a machine to gain entry with buses passing relatively frequently even at night).

I'm not sure an hourly service (in each direction) would prevent someone finding a quiet time to try and get into a machine. Or just vandalise it.

In Yorkshire I've seem concrete that had been poured into a machine on the platform. Not sure how they managed that, but expensive to fix.

 

[cactustwirly]

I meant that flat fare would be more of a network-wide solution to avoid confusion.
The 20/21 are dissimilar to the 26 in that they have that densely used section to both uni campuses, the 26 is more purely residential (and the Lower Earley ASDA is also a draw, while the Savacentre is more strongly car-orientated IMHO with the proximity to the West Berks villages and the M4).
Yep, Whitley can be dodgy at all hours, sadly.
With Oxford Road, it depends on the time, but being able to board quickly, having bought a ticket before boarding and not having to get your card out in the evening would be a safety improvement.


I think there was pre-recession, but a lot of services got cut back then. Some from that era have recently returned though (the 18 Tilehurst - Kentwood - Norcot Jcn - Portman Road - Rivermead - central Reading), so I wouldn't lose hope.

A ticket machine is an inanimate object that can be insured.

There are options for tickets that can be validated off bus after purchase if desired.

Well, I think you're WY based and those stations don't have a 24 hour service, while the bus routes I'm suggesting to trial off-bus ticket machines on do (limited opportunities to vandalise a machine to gain entry with buses passing relatively frequently even at night).

The 21 is the same as the 26 once you reach Earley, it's very suburban residential. The Asda is still very car centric, no different to the Sainsbury's in Calcot. It's one of the more affluent parts of Reading so will be very careful centric anyway

The service pattern is the same, both every 15 minutes and have an hourly night bus.

The uni has route 20 anyway, and a lot of students live on the 17 route

As a relative newbie to this area of Reading (nearest bus stop is Foxhill Road), has there ever been a Sunday service on the 19a/b/c (little oranges), or any chance of one in the future?

No it's supported by Wokingham council

You're better off walking to Cemetery Junction or Redlands road instead

 

[AlastairFraser]

Ah, more cost.

Well, it's cheaper compared to the other realistic options for worthwhile improvements to services like the 17.

You seem reluctant to actually explain how this would work.

Well, there are franking/stamping machines on many urban transport systems across Europe e.g Prague. That's one way of doing it. There's also mag tickets that can be validated using an electronic validator, but this would be more expensive and pointless for 3 routes.

The 21 is the same as the 26 once you reach Earley, it's very suburban residential. The Asda is still very car centric, no different to the Sainsbury's in Calcot. It's one of the more affluent parts of Reading so will be very careful centric anyway

The service pattern is the same, both every 15 minutes and have an hourly night bus.

The uni has route 20 anyway, and a lot of students live on the 17 route

I wouldn't call Lower Earley affluent by any means, and route 21 would share machines with route 20.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well, it's cheaper compared to the other realistic options for worthwhile improvements to services like the 17.

Well, there are franking/stamping machines on many urban transport systems across Europe e.g Prague. That's one way of doing it. There's also mag tickets that can be validated using an electronic validator, but this would be more expensive and pointless for 3 routes.

I wouldn't call Lower Earley affluent by any means, and route 21 would share machines with route 20.

17 is running at a reduced frequency since COVID, is there a need for improvements

Well it's not Caversham Heights or Henley, but definitely one of the better areas of Reading

 

[Deerfold]

Well, it's cheaper compared to the other realistic options for worthwhile improvements to services like the 17.

It sounds to be costing a fortune to ensure a handful of people can continue to use cash. Do you think they're unlikely to be attacked or vandalised?

Well, there are franking/stamping machines on many urban transport systems across Europe e.g Prague. That's one way of doing it. There's also mag tickets that can be validated using an electronic validator, but this would be more expensive and pointless for 3 routes.

Would the frank or stamp not have to be seen by the driver? This doesn't sound very quick. I thought part of this was saving time.

 

[AlastairFraser]

17 is running at a reduced frequency since COVID, is there a need for improvements

Well it's not Caversham Heights or Henley, but definitely one of the better areas of Reading

I would say that there is if we want to solve west Reading's dire traffic issues (part of that may mean a park and ride somewhere near Norcot Junction, further into town is where the traffic volume tends to be unsustainable).
Earley/Maiden Erleigh is probably nice by Reading standard (so more the 4/19 route), but Lower Earley isn't particularly salubrious IMHO.

It sounds to be costing a fortune to ensure a handful of people can continue to use cash. Do you think they're unlikely to be attacked or vandalised?

It wouldn't just be about people using cash, it's a solution to cut out the few seconds of delay per passenger as they tap on and then when they tap off as well. I think a machine is less likely to be vandalised by someone who knows they are unlikely to be able to successfully get money out of it, compared to a bus driver, who can get a knife thrusted at them as a more effective threat!

 

[Deerfold]

It wouldn't just be about people using cash, it's a solution to cut out the few seconds of delay per passenger as they tap on and then when they tap off as well. I think a machine is less likely to be vandalised by someone who knows they are unlikely to be able to successfully get money out of it, compared to a bus driver, who can get a knife thrusted at them as a more effective threat!

i don't understand how a ticket machine is going to be any quicker when it still needs to be checked once you're on the bus.
I'm all for getting ticketing off bus, but this has to be one of the most convoluted methods I've come across.
If most passengers aren't paying cash, how much will bus drivers have on them now?

 

[AlastairFraser]

i don't understand how a ticket machine is going to be any quicker when it still needs to be checked once you're on the bus.
I'm all for getting ticketing off bus, but this has to be one of the most convoluted methods I've come across.
If most passengers aren't paying cash, how much will bus drivers have on them now?

You could switch to a proof of payment system with ticket inspectors on those routes, instead of having the driver check.
You can say most people aren't paying cash, but there are still schoolchildren who don't have debit cards yet/digitally excluded/unbanked who will pay cash (in Katesgrove and Oxford Road, this will be a higher than usual percentage of residents as those are both areas with a high percentage of recent immigrants, who often find it difficult to open bank accounts with little credit history), so whatever they pay for the bus makes the bus driver a potential target.

 

[cactustwirly]

I would say that there is if we want to solve west Reading's dire traffic issues (part of that may mean a park and ride somewhere near Norcot Junction, further into town is where the traffic volume tends to be unsustainable).
Earley/Maiden Erleigh is probably nice by Reading standard (so more the 4/19 route), but Lower Earley isn't particularly salubrious IMHO.

It wouldn't just be about people using cash, it's a solution to cut out the few seconds of delay per passenger as they tap on and then when they tap off as well. I think a machine is less likely to be vandalised by someone who knows they are unlikely to be able to successfully get money out of it, compared to a bus driver, who can get a knife thrusted at them as a more effective threat!

West Reading has 12 buses per hour down Oxford Road

Where is salubrious in your opinion?
What makes Lower Earley bad? It's a normal suburban area, it's quite expensive now because a lot of Londoners have moved there.
Lot's of middle class families etc.
It is better than Woodley

Old Earley has posh parts but a lot of HMOs, I used to live there

You could switch to a proof of payment system with ticket inspectors on those routes, instead of having the driver check.
You can say most people aren't paying cash, but there are still schoolchildren who don't have debit cards yet/digitally excluded/unbanked who will pay cash (in Katesgrove and Oxford Road, this will be a higher than usual percentage of residents as those are both areas with a high percentage of recent immigrants, who often find it difficult to open bank accounts with little credit history), so whatever they pay for the bus makes the bus driver a potential target.

Reading buses don't have inspectors do they? I've never seen them.

A much higher cost, all this effort to solve a non existent problem

 

[Goldfish62]

Reading buses don't have inspectors do they? I've never seen them.

They certainly do! I had my ticket checked on a 703 last year.

 

[Deerfold]

You could switch to a proof of payment system with ticket inspectors on those routes, instead of having the driver check.
You can say most people aren't paying cash, but there are still schoolchildren who don't have debit cards yet/digitally excluded/unbanked who will pay cash (in Katesgrove and Oxford Road, this will be a higher than usual percentage of residents as those are both areas with a high percentage of recent immigrants, who often find it difficult to open bank accounts with little credit history), so whatever they pay for the bus makes the bus driver a potential target.

When I was a schoolchild I had a pass to show for each journey as I made it every day. Presumably nowadays it'd be an electronic one.

Buses where the driver has nothing to do with ticketing are undoubtably faster, but a second staff member increases the cost massively. Bus staff can't threaten the same horrors as rail companies so they'd need to be checking either all the time or very regularly.

 

[AlastairFraser]

West Reading has 12 buses per hour down Oxford Road

Where is salubrious in your opinion?
What makes Lower Earley bad? It's a normal suburban area, it's quite expensive now because a lot of Londoners have moved there.
Lot's of middle class families etc.
It is better than Woodley

Old Earley has posh parts but a lot of HMOs, I used to live there

The service along Oxford Road clearly isn't good enough to cut peak traffic down further - it's decent, but we've reached the ceiling of cheap improvements now.
Salubrious - most parts of Woodley excluding Bulmershe/Cav Heights/TMC/Purley/parts of Kentwood/most of Old Earley. Lower Earley isn't a bad area, it just isn't particularly nice (it's lower middle class suburbia, whereas most of the Savacentre hinterland to the west/south west are expensive villages like Bradfield/Pangbourne/Tidmarsh/Grazeley/Aldermaston).

Reading buses don't have inspectors do they? I've never seen them.

A much higher cost, all this effort to solve a non existent problem

It's an idea to cut boarding time when we've already reached the limit of the cheaper bus priority measures you can implement along certain corridors and making certain routes TOTO-only would just confuse people (and would be particularly unsuitable at all for the large rural and exurban route portfolio that Reading operates).
You don't have to endorse or agree with it, but we have examples elsewhere in the UK where providing ticket machines/validators has significantly improved other high frequency bus routes, and, for that reason, I think that it should be trialed here.

When I was a schoolchild I had a pass to show for each journey as I made it every day. Presumably nowadays it'd be an electronic one.

Buses where the driver has nothing to do with ticketing are undoubtably faster, but a second staff member increases the cost massively. Bus staff can't threaten the same horrors as rail companies so they'd need to be checking either all the time or very regularly.

Some kids will have special school travel passes (especially if it's a school only service), but some won't, and some will have a school travel pass that is only valid on a school service and have to pay for a normal service otherwise.
I wasn't suggesting that you'd have an inspector on every service, it's more a periodic inspection with high fines. This works well with some other operators, and you can also use these periodic inspections to enforce conditions of carriage regarding ASB issues.

 

[cactustwirly]

The service along Oxford Road clearly isn't good enough to cut peak traffic down further - it's decent, but we've reached the ceiling of cheap improvements now.
Salubrious - most parts of Woodley excluding Bulmershe/Cav Heights/TMC/Purley/parts of Kentwood/most of Old Earley. Lower Earley isn't a bad area, it just isn't particularly nice (it's lower middle class suburbia, whereas most of the Savacentre hinterland to the west/south west are expensive villages like Bradfield/Pangbourne/Tidmarsh/Grazeley/Aldermaston).

It's an idea to cut boarding time when we've already reached the limit of the cheaper bus priority measures you can implement along certain corridors and making certain routes TOTO-only would just confuse people (and would be particularly unsuitable at all for the large rural and exurban route portfolio that Reading operates).
You don't have to endorse or agree with it, but we have examples elsewhere in the UK where providing ticket machines/validators has significantly improved other high frequency bus routes, and, for that reason, I think that it should be trialed here.

Some kids will have special school travel passes (especially if it's a school only service), but some won't, and some will have a school travel pass that is only valid on a school service and have to pay for a normal service otherwise.
I wasn't suggesting that you'd have an inspector on every service, it's more a periodic inspection with high fines. This works well with some other operators, and you can also use these periodic inspections to enforce conditions of carriage regarding ASB issues.

Surely if there was demand the 17 frequency would be increased to it's pre COVID levels?

Interesting view, I'd say Calcot is similar to Bulmershe tbh. The airfield estate of Woodley is the same as Lower Earley
What do you mean by TMC?

I would say a lot of places in Tilehurst are nice too, west of the Triangle

 

[Deerfold]

Some kids will have special school travel passes (especially if it's a school only service), but some won't, and some will have a school travel pass that is only valid on a school service and have to pay for a normal service otherwise.

It wasn't a special school pass. It was valid on all buses, but at a child fare. The current tickets in West Yorkshire is £74.40 a month. There's a child Pay as you go smartcard in West Yorkshire, too which can be loaded with funds. I'm sure this must be cheaper than a network of on-street machines and inspectors.

Reading buses seem to offer child period tickets and smartcards with the ability to load 10 journeys onto them at a time.

I wasn't suggesting that you'd have an inspector on every service, it's more a periodic inspection with high fines. This works well with some other operators, and you can also use these periodic inspections to enforce conditions of carriage regarding ASB issues.

As I say, it's not easy to have large fines under current legislation. Do any other operators in this country do this?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Surely if there was demand the 17 frequency would be increased to it's pre COVID levels?

Interesting view, I'd say Calcot is similar to Bulmershe tbh. The airfield estate of Woodley is the same as Lower Earley
What do you mean by TMC?

I would say a lot of places in Tilehurst are nice too, west of the Triangle

I think the 17 frequency is more of a lack of drivers and RB prioritising expansion elsewhere thing.
Calcot depends on the area really - Beansheaf/Holybrook south of the Bath Road is similar to Bulmershe/Lower Earley, Calcot north of the Bath Road is a bit nicer, I'd say.
The Airfield estate in Woodley is much nicer than Lower Earley IMHO, it's a bit quieter because it's more purely residential and it's got Dinton Pastures + the lovely countryside heading towards Whistley Green and Hurst right next door.
Lower Earley has the M4 right next door and not as much green space.
TMC = Three Mile Cross.
Agreed - anything west of Tilehurst Triangle and also south of Mayfair/New Lane Hill tends to be pretty decent in my book

It wasn't a special school pass. It was valid on all buses, but at a child fare. The current tickets in West Yorkshire is £74.40 a month. There's a child Pay as you go smartcard in West Yorkshire, too which can be loaded with funds. I'm sure this must be cheaper than a network of on-street machines and inspectors.

Reading has something similar with the Boost tickets, although the benefit of West Yorks being a PTE area is the cross-operator ticketing (I've used my MCard many times up here and would love for the Thames Valley to have something similar at some point). RB now offer this within the simplyReading boundaries (as the Reading All-Bus ticket), but there's nothing wider for Berks or the whole 3 counties Berks/Bucks/Oxon area that I know of. And, as I mentioned, I believe there are still school bus passes that aren't valid on the wider RB public bus network.

As I say, it's not easy to have fines under current legislation. Do any other operators in this country do this?

I thought that some other operators use the standard fare (while not technically a fine, it's a similar large charge that has successfully been implemented by another bus company in the UK).

 

[Beemax]

Would be interesting to know what any Reading Drivers feel are the riskier routes. I live near Oxford Road, use the 15/16 and 17 a lot and don’t feel at any more risk than on public transport in general. The greatest risk on Oxford Road is being run over by a bicycle on the pavement.

Regarding payment, the amount of cash used these days is very low, but should still be kept as an option

 

[crablab]

The service along Oxford Road clearly isn't good enough to cut peak traffic down further - it's decent, but we've reached the ceiling of cheap improvements now.

Well what do you suggest (apart from the whacky ticketing idea)?

You don't have to endorse or agree with it, but we have examples elsewhere in the UK where providing ticket machines/validators has significantly improved other high frequency bus routes, and, for that reason, I think that it should be trialed here.

With Oxford Road, it depends on the time, but being able to board quickly, having bought a ticket before boarding and not having to get your card out in the evening would be a safety improvement.

So you're saying that you'd prefer to get your wallet out and start feeding cash into a machine along Oxford Road, because tapping your card when boarding the bus is unsafe?

You can say most people aren't paying cash, but there are still schoolchildren who don't have debit cards yet/digitally excluded/unbanked who will pay cash (in Katesgrove and Oxford Road, this will be a higher than usual percentage of residents as those are both areas with a high percentage of recent immigrants, who often find it difficult to open bank accounts with little credit history), so whatever they pay for the bus makes the bus driver a potential target.

What evidence do you have that bus drivers in Reading are regularly being threatened? I've never seen it mentioned in the local news.
This feels like a lot of whataboutism for a totally non-existant issue.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Well what do you suggest (apart from the whacky ticketing idea)?

I think that Reading is going to have to look at a Norcot Jcn Park and Ride to Thames Valley Park tramway at some point (via Portman Road, underpass to Gt. Knollys St, Tudor Rd, Station, Forbury Road, Kenavon Drive, viaduct up the canal, and finally Suttons Seeds Business Park). Albeit necessary, th
at will be quite expensive, and we need interim measures. So gradual implementation of BRT features (off bus ticketing, Kassel kerbs for quicker stops, more continuous bus lanes to avoid traffic delays) would make sense in the interim.

So you're saying that you'd prefer to get your wallet out and start feeding cash into a machine along Oxford Road, because tapping your card when boarding the bus is unsafe?

No, I just think that the machines should have the facility for both cash and card. I would prefer to be able to buy a ticket beforehand from a machine and then get on as soon as the bus comes, no need to tap or to wait for someone to dig a card out on the bus and tap. I would encourage you and other forum members to go and visit other BRT systems where this has been done successfully.

What evidence do you have that bus drivers in Reading are regularly being threatened? I've never seen it mentioned in the local news.
This feels like a lot of whataboutism for a totally non-existant issue.

Does it happen frequently yet? No.
Is there a significant risk of it happening at some point? Yes.
The main benefit is reduced boarding time, but the inherent safety upgrade of transferring that risk to an inanimate object is a positive side effect IMHO. You don't have to agree.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm sorry but I'm reading this with increasing confusion and more than a bit of incredulity.

The first posts on this element of the thread were about Tap On Tap Off being an efficient way of speeding up boarding times. Yes - that is absolutely accurate as demonstrated by how operators want to reduce cash being handled and the back office costs. There was mention of improving dwell times by having dual doors (which does improve things though with a trade off between productivity savings vs. additional cost/reduced capacity - a discussion that has been had ad infinitum).

However, then the discussion mentioned the removal of on-bus cash fares. I think I've followed:

• Remove on-bus sales
• You can't do that as lots of people pay cash - (sorry but cash fares are a minority and increasingly so)
• TOTO isn't a mature technology and might not work - (it's been rolled out progressively since 2021 across the UK with no major issues)
• Instead, have on-street ticket machines and that means the drivers are less likely to be robbed - (as was pointed out, drivers don't handle cash as the vehicles have vaults)
• As rightly pointed out, on-street ticket machines may be target for criminals (and represents a significant additional cost)
• The machines can be emptied using cash in transit security vans (for info, such a service is VERY, VERY expensive so when added to the cost and maintenance of the machine would be in excess of fares taken)
• TOTO wouldn't work because of the complexity of Reading's fare system (I can't see how it can work everywhere else but not in Reading)

And then we descended into a mind boggling exploration of off bus validation methods, ticket inspectors etc and all sorts of other odd statements that I struggle to fully comprehend. So...

The reality is that cash sales are continuing to decline - in Reading, there is already TOTO and they are trying to encourage more take up of that via the pricing strategy. On street bus ticket machines are now anachronistic, and certainly ones that take cash. Whilst Belfast installed them, the ones in Bristol are card only, and Cambridgeshire's were converted to card only in 2014 following vandalism, and removed completely by 2019.

Most European cities don't have roadside ticket machines. Of places I've visited, some still have buy from the driver (e.g. Valencia). Most work off TOTO - if my card works in Helsinki, it should work in Reading! You can still buy tickets from machines but they are generally located within rail and metro stations where they are well lit, under CCTV, and so less likely to be damaged. There is a massive paradox here - if the volume of cash fares was of such a level that it required roadside ticket machines, the cash values would be so high as to require high insurance levels and cash in transit vans. Having that would be prohibitively expensive so you wouldn't do it. In fact, the whole idea makes no sense commercially.

In any case, technological advances are such that cash sales are continuing to decline and you will be left with a hard core who prefer cash because a) they don't want to use contactless/app b) they perhaps find it easier to budget or c) they aren't paranoid but they are aware of the global conspiracy being orchestrated by the WEF, big pharma and Russell Brand haters.

So what is likely to happen is that cash fares will continue to reduce and eventually operators will do the maths that they are so small as to be removed.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm sorry but I'm reading this with increasing confusion and more than a bit of incredulity.

The first posts on this element of the thread were about Tap On Tap Off being an efficient way of speeding up boarding times. Yes - that is absolutely accurate as demonstrated by how operators want to reduce cash being handled and the back office costs. There was mention of improving dwell times by having dual doors (which does improve things though with a trade off between productivity savings vs. additional cost/reduced capacity - a discussion that has been had ad infinitum).

However, then the discussion mentioned the removal of on-bus cash fares. I think I've followed:

• Remove on-bus sales
• You can't do that as lots of people pay cash - (sorry but cash fares are a minority and increasingly so)
• TOTO isn't a mature technology and might not work - (it's been rolled out progressively since 2021 across the UK with no major issues)
• Instead, have on-street ticket machines and that means the drivers are less likely to be robbed - (as was pointed out, drivers don't handle cash as the vehicles have vaults)
• As rightly pointed out, on-street ticket machines may be target for criminals (and represents a significant additional cost)
• The machines can be emptied using cash in transit security vans (for info, such a service is VERY, VERY expensive so when added to the cost and maintenance of the machine would be in excess of fares taken)
• TOTO wouldn't work because of the complexity of Reading's fare system (I can't see how it can work everywhere else but not in Reading)

And then we descended into a mind boggling exploration of off bus validation methods, ticket inspectors etc and all sorts of other odd statements that I struggle to fully comprehend. So...

The reality is that cash sales are continuing to decline - in Reading, there is already TOTO and they are trying to encourage more take up of that via the pricing strategy. On street bus ticket machines are now anachronistic, and certainly ones that take cash. Whilst Belfast installed them, the ones in Bristol are card only, and Cambridgeshire's were converted to card only in 2014 following vandalism, and removed completely by 2019.

Most European cities don't have roadside ticket machines. Of places I've visited, some still have buy from the driver (e.g. Valencia). Most work off TOTO - if my card works in Helsinki, it should work in Reading! You can still buy tickets from machines but they are generally located within rail and metro stations where they are well lit, under CCTV, and so less likely to be damaged. There is a massive paradox here - if the volume of cash fares was of such a level that it required roadside ticket machines, the cash values would be so high as to require high insurance levels and cash in transit vans. Having that would be prohibitively expensive so you wouldn't do it. In fact, the whole idea makes no sense commercially.

In any case, technological advances are such that cash sales are continuing to decline and you will be left with a hard core who prefer cash because a) they don't want to use contactless/app b) they perhaps find it easier to budget or c) they aren't paranoid but they are aware of the global conspiracy being orchestrated by the WEF, big pharma and Russell Brand haters.

So what is likely to happen is that cash fares will continue to reduce and eventually operators will do the maths that they are so small as to be removed.

In all honesty, my point is that we should continue to facilitate the use of cash while speeding up boarding times. How do we do that? Off-bus ticketing.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm sorry but I'm reading this with increasing confusion and more than a bit of incredulity.

The first posts on this element of the thread were about Tap On Tap Off being an efficient way of speeding up boarding times. Yes - that is absolutely accurate as demonstrated by how operators want to reduce cash being handled and the back office costs. There was mention of improving dwell times by having dual doors (which does improve things though with a trade off between productivity savings vs. additional cost/reduced capacity - a discussion that has been had ad infinitum).

However, then the discussion mentioned the removal of on-bus cash fares. I think I've followed:

• Remove on-bus sales
• You can't do that as lots of people pay cash - (sorry but cash fares are a minority and increasingly so)
• TOTO isn't a mature technology and might not work - (it's been rolled out progressively since 2021 across the UK with no major issues)
• Instead, have on-street ticket machines and that means the drivers are less likely to be robbed - (as was pointed out, drivers don't handle cash as the vehicles have vaults)
• As rightly pointed out, on-street ticket machines may be target for criminals (and represents a significant additional cost)
• The machines can be emptied using cash in transit security vans (for info, such a service is VERY, VERY expensive so when added to the cost and maintenance of the machine would be in excess of fares taken)
• TOTO wouldn't work because of the complexity of Reading's fare system (I can't see how it can work everywhere else but not in Reading)

And then we descended into a mind boggling exploration of off bus validation methods, ticket inspectors etc and all sorts of other odd statements that I struggle to fully comprehend. So...

The reality is that cash sales are continuing to decline - in Reading, there is already TOTO and they are trying to encourage more take up of that via the pricing strategy. On street bus ticket machines are now anachronistic, and certainly ones that take cash. Whilst Belfast installed them, the ones in Bristol are card only, and Cambridgeshire's were converted to card only in 2014 following vandalism, and removed completely by 2019.

Most European cities don't have roadside ticket machines. Of places I've visited, some still have buy from the driver (e.g. Valencia). Most work off TOTO - if my card works in Helsinki, it should work in Reading! You can still buy tickets from machines but they are generally located within rail and metro stations where they are well lit, under CCTV, and so less likely to be damaged. There is a massive paradox here - if the volume of cash fares was of such a level that it required roadside ticket machines, the cash values would be so high as to require high insurance levels and cash in transit vans. Having that would be prohibitively expensive so you wouldn't do it. In fact, the whole idea makes no sense commercially.

In any case, technological advances are such that cash sales are continuing to decline and you will be left with a hard core who prefer cash because a) they don't want to use contactless/app b) they perhaps find it easier to budget or c) they aren't paranoid but they are aware of the global conspiracy being orchestrated by the WEF, big pharma and Russell Brand haters.

So what is likely to happen is that cash fares will continue to reduce and eventually operators will do the maths that they are so small as to be removed.

Agreed!
Most people in Reading use TOTO anyway, I use the mobile app as you can bulk buy Day tickets at a discounted rate

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In all honesty, my point is that we should continue to facilitate the use of cash while speeding up boarding times. How do we do that? Off-bus ticketing.

The best course is to migrate as many cash fares to off bus ticketing as possible, as well as conventional contactless fares. That is what operators, including Reading Buses, are doing. They are doing that via the use of mobile ticketing/apps, and now with TOTO.

The idea of using fixed infrastructure, validators and cash vans is 1980s technology, and the cost of that would be prohibitive for a declining number of cash fares. The future is digital; operators across the world are focussed on moving to digital technology - lower cost, fewer back office staff, less capital intensive.

 

[crablab]

Most people in Reading use TOTO anyway, I use the mobile app as you can bulk buy Day tickets at a discounted rate

Yes, exactly. It's rare to see people pay with cash.
Lots of smartcard tickets too, interestingly.

In all honesty, my point is that we should continue to facilitate the use of cash while speeding up boarding times. How do we do that? Off-bus ticketing.

Incorrect.
If someone really absolutely must use cash, then they can go to the travel shop (in Broad Street Mall) and ask them to top up a smartcard which can be used to pay on the bus: https://www.reading-buses.co.uk/tickets#dac61eb3-c278-4e42-ac19-9172aa9100c9

TOTO is still quicker than that - doesn't require the driver to do anything.

(And would likely be better value, as it caps you at the All Day ticket whereas buying singles doesn't)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Incorrect.
If someone really absolutely must use cash, then they can go to the travel shop (in Broad Street Mall) and ask them to top up a smartcard which can be used to pay on the bus: https://www.reading-buses.co.uk/tickets#dac61eb3-c278-4e42-ac19-9172aa9100c9

I'm aware of what was the easysaver10, that doesn't really help people living on the outskirts who have to get into the centre to load it.

The best course is to migrate as many cash fares to off bus ticketing as possible, as well as conventional contactless fares. That is what operators, including Reading Buses, are doing. They are doing that via the use of mobile ticketing/apps, and now with TOTO.

The idea of using fixed infrastructure, validators and cash vans is 1980s technology, and the cost of that would be prohibitive for a declining number of cash fares. The future is digital; operators across the world are focussed on moving to digital technology - lower cost, fewer back office staff, less capital intensive.

Sure, the future is digital, but we shouldn't become overreliant on debit/credit-card based infrastructure.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sure, the future is digital, but we shouldn't become overreliant on debit/credit-card based infrastructure.

When I first became interested in buses, fares were issued with a Setright machine. The driver (my father) had a series of farecards, and at the end of the shift, would spend 10-15 mins counting up cash taken (plus some pesky National Transport Tokens) and filling in a waybill before depositing that in a nightsafe before a clerk would check it the following day.

I can now walk onto a bus and pay with my watch. I can buy a months' worth of travel and have it stored on my phone. The world has changed.