Reading Buses and Thames Valley

[jammy36]

In all honesty, my point is that we should continue to facilitate the use of cash while speeding up boarding times. How do we do that? Off-bus ticketing.

To play devil's advocate why should we continue to facilitate the use of cash? Is cash still relevant for the majority and are we going to see it's used grow or continue to diminish? Why promote the investment in off bus ticketing solutions now when cash use is in decline?

When I first became interested in buses, fares were issued with a Setright machine. The driver (my father) had a series of farecards, and at the end of the shift, would spend 10-15 mins counting up cash taken (plus some pesky National Transport Tokens) and filling in a waybill before depositing that in a nightsafe before a clerk would check it the following day.

I can now walk onto a bus and pay with my watch. I can buy a months' worth of travel and have it stored on my phone. The world has changed.

Yes, I have to wonder why so much discussion and emphasis is being made on enabling (off bus) cash transactions rather than focusing on eliminating (as far as possible) the use of cash as a payment method. If the prime objective of moving cash payments off bus is to reduce dwell - and hence journey times - there are other better priorities that could be implemented to reduce journey times that would deliver much more meaningful benefits.

All the discussions about off bus cash fares seems to be approaching a problem that doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Perhaps relevant to this was a story in RouteOne yesterday, about the big increase in Tap On-Tap Off transactions at First York: just 7% of fares are now paid by cash.

First Bus in York marks big increase in tap on, tap off payments

First Bus in York has hailed a sharp increase in the number of customers using its tap on, tap off (TOTO) payment system.

www.route-one.net

 

[AlastairFraser]

To play devil's advocate why should we continue to facilitate the use of cash? Is cash still relevant for the majority and are we going to see it's used grow or continue to diminish? Why promote the investment in off bus ticketing solutions now when cash use is in decline?

It's not promoting the use of cash at all, it's just retaining it as an option. I think it's important that we provide people with a choice of payment options, not force people into using another payment option. If we had a similar (but ITSO-based) system to the Oyster across Berks/Oxon/Bucks and there was a large network of local shops that could conveniently load it, that would be a smart compromise.

When I first became interested in buses, fares were issued with a Setright machine. The driver (my father) had a series of farecards, and at the end of the shift, would spend 10-15 mins counting up cash taken (plus some pesky National Transport Tokens) and filling in a waybill before depositing that in a nightsafe before a clerk would check it the following day.

I can now walk onto a bus and pay with my watch. I can buy a months' worth of travel and have it stored on my phone. The world has changed.

The world has changed, but that doesn't mean we should become reliant on one version of digital ticketing. People lambast ITSO-based smartcards here as outdated technology, but they are simple, easy to load and already have wide support in many regions. A triple option of ITSO smartcard/app based tickets/TOTO would be a decent solution to the modernisation dilemma.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Perhaps relevant to this was a story in RouteOne yesterday, about the big increase in Tap On-Tap Off transactions at First York: just 7% of fares are now paid by cash.

It's not promoting the use of cash at all, it's just retaining it as an option. I think it's important that we provide people with a choice of payment options, not force people into using another payment option. If we had a similar (but ITSO-based) system to the Oyster across Berks/Oxon/Bucks and there was a large network of local shops that could conveniently load it, that would be a smart compromise.

The world has changed, but that doesn't mean we should become reliant on one version of digital ticketing. People lambast ITSO-based smartcards here as outdated technology, but they are simple, easy to load and already have wide support in many regions. A triple option of ITSO smartcard/app based tickets/TOTO would be a decent solution to the modernisation dilemma.

Except it isn't one type of digital ticketing. You have TOTO, you have mobile tickets, and you can still top up your smartcards at the travel office. You could extend that to a network of local shops - they'll want commission for doing that.

If only about 7% are cash sales (and from my experience around the country, the rarity of hearing a ticket machine "whirr" rather than "bleep" is noteworthy) and declining, then it won't be long before the financial cost of handling cash simply won't make sense.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Except it isn't one type of digital ticketing. You have TOTO, you have mobile tickets, and you can still top up your smartcards at the travel office. You could extend that to a network of local shops - they'll want commission for doing that.

If only about 7% are cash sales (and from my experience around the country, the rarity of hearing a ticket machine "whirr" rather than "bleep" is noteworthy) and declining, then it won't be long before the financial cost of handling cash simply won't make sense.

If you can top up your smartcards at the travel office (which you have to get to from one of the many suburbs that people actually live in and RB serve), why not the local shops?
Yes, it would mean a bit of commission, but then you can outsource your cash handling to shops that already have to handle it!

 

[Leedsbusman]

Except it isn't one type of digital ticketing. You have TOTO, you have mobile tickets, and you can still top up your smartcards at the travel office. You could extend that to a network of local shops - they'll want commission for doing that.

If only about 7% are cash sales (and from my experience around the country, the rarity of hearing a ticket machine "whirr" rather than "bleep" is noteworthy) and declining, then it won't be long before the financial cost of handling cash simply won't make sense.

Unlikely as the cost of cash collecting won’t be more than the cash earned. I doubt many operators can afford to lose 7% of their customers.

 

[Deerfold]

Unlikely as the cost of cash collecting won’t be more than the cash earned. I doubt many operators can afford to lose 7% of their customers.

TfL had got on-bus cash payments down to 0.7% of journeys before they removed the option.

At 2014 prices this saved them £24 million a year.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If you can top up your smartcards at the travel office (which you have to get to from one of the many suburbs that people actually live in and RB serve), why not the local shops?
Yes, it would mean a bit of commission, but then you can outsource your cash handling to shops that already have to handle it!

If you don't accept cash on bus, you have massively reduced your cash handling and associated costs anyway.

I don't think you've actually thought about the costs involved in any of your ideas. Commission, cash in transit vans, fixed roadside infrastructure... Do the maths!

Unlikely as the cost of cash collecting won’t be more than the cash earned. I doubt many operators can afford to lose 7% of their customers.

If you look at what I said...

If only about 7% are cash sales (and from my experience around the country, the rarity of hearing a ticket machine "whirr" rather than "bleep" is noteworthy) and declining, then it won't be long before the financial cost of handling cash simply won't make sense.

I was talking about an ongoing trend, not suggesting operators facing a 7% loss of passengers. Instead, if the current trend is that cash sales continue to decline (and the evidence suggests that it will) then there will be a point (i.e. in the future) where cash handling won't make financial sense. For instance, let's say that on-bus payments go down to 2% of total fares (rather than @Deerfold's TfL example). In RB's case, that would be £800k p.a. in revenue to forego (and much less in terms of profit). You can see why people like Stagecoach are now looking at trialling going cashless.

TfL had got on-bus cash payments down to 0.7% of journeys before they removed the option.

At 2014 prices this saved them £24 million a year.

Exactly. In fact, if you can get people to buy their tickets online (for period products rather than single fares, I grant you), you're probably getting a nice cashflow benefit too.

 

[Leedsbusman]

If you don't accept cash on bus, you have massively reduced your cash handling and associated costs anyway.

I don't think you've actually thought about the costs involved in any of your ideas. Commission, cash in transit vans, fixed roadside infrastructure... Do the maths!

If you look at what I said...

I was talking about an ongoing trend, not suggesting operators facing a 7% loss of passengers. Instead, if the current trend is that cash sales continue to decline (and the evidence suggests that it will) then there will be a point (i.e. in the future) where cash handling won't make financial sense. For instance, let's say that on-bus payments go down to 2% of total fares (rather than @Deerfold's TfL example). In RB's case, that would be £800k p.a. in revenue to forego (and much less in terms of profit). You can see why people like Stagecoach are now looking at trialling going cashless.

Exactly. In fact, if you can get people to buy their tickets online (for period products rather than single fares, I grant you), you're probably getting a nice cashflow benefit too.

I did. As the volume of cash goes down so does the marginal cost of collecting it. You have fewer cash collections, fewer ticket rolls, less repairs to cash machines etc. It will almost certainly never be cheaper to not have cash than it will be. It may be 7% now but when is it acceptable just to abandon a market group because they are too difficult.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I did. As the volume of cash goes down so does the marginal cost of collecting it. You have fewer cash collections, fewer ticket rolls, less repairs to cash machines etc. It will almost certainly never be cheaper to not have cash than it will be. It may be 7% now but when is it acceptable just to abandon a market group because they are too difficult.

Many of those are fixed costs. The cost of ticket machines is fixed (capital purchase and even maintenance) is largely fixed. The cost of back office staff is largely fixed. Fewer cash collections.... are they really going to have one every 6 weeks instead of every week? Yes, fewer ticket rolls but that's a minor amount anyway (and buses are noticeably tidier with so few issued now).

As I said, if it continues to decline (and all available evidence suggests that it will) then you do reach a point. For London it was 0.7%... might it be 2% for a provincial operator like Reading Buses? I don't know where that cut-off comes. However, it is definitely the way the industry is going, which is why Stagecoach are doing trials in Kent, doubtless motivated by the fact that they can further trim shift lengths as cashing in is removed, which is obviously not a factor for Reading Buses.

The other unknown is if you do get to 2% and go cashless...how many of those 2% do you actually lose?

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you don't accept cash on bus, you have massively reduced your cash handling and associated costs anyway.

I don't think you've actually thought about the costs involved in any of your ideas. Commission, cash in transit vans, fixed roadside infrastructure... Do the maths!

If you were to install ticket machines, I accept that maintenance and cash in transit vans would be a significant ongoing expense.
But, if you went for a network of shops that can load smartcards instead, you're looking at installation of equipment and a small commission percentage of tickets sold.
Now, if cash is only a small percentage of sales, the commission system would enable RB to keep cash as an option in the long run while minimising the impact on revenue.

 

[Man of Kent]

If you were to install ticket machines, I accept that maintenance and cash in transit vans would be a significant ongoing expense.
But, if you went for a network of shops that can load smartcards instead, you're looking at installation of equipment and a small commission percentage of tickets sold.
Now, if cash is only a small percentage of sales, the commission system would enable RB to keep cash as an option in the long run while minimising the impact on revenue.

All of the commission levels I am aware of would exceed the very thin margin on Reading Buses' bottom line.

 

[AlastairFraser]

All of the commission levels I am aware of would exceed the very thin margin on Reading Buses' bottom line.

How high do you expect them to be? Do you really think that RB would be in financial trouble if they gave max. 10 percent commission of credit loaded onto a smartcard for a small percentage of sales?

 

[Bungle965]

Back on topic please, discussions over cash have been had before in various other threads

 

[Thames99]

Reading Buses have got funding to increase their order of electric buses from 24 to 32 using Zebra 2 funding. As well as the new buses running on route 17 and 21, the additional eight buses will enable route 26 to go completely electric in 2026.

Here is the announcement on Route One

Reading Buses takes Enviro400EV orders to 32 with further batch - routeone

Reading Buses has confirmed an order for a further eight Alexander Dennis Enviro400EV battery-electric double-deckers.

www.route-one.net

 

[crablab]

I saw that. Is this a new announcement, or rehashing the one from early April?

 

[Edvid]

Previous announcement was confirmation of extra ZEBRA 2 subsidy; this announcement is confirmation of add-on E400EV order with said subsidy.

 

[crablab]

Previous announcement was confirmation of extra ZEBRA 2 subsidy; this announcement is confirmation of add-on E400EV order with said subsidy.

Hmm, no. This is just rehashing the announcement from April. I don't see what's materially changed.

See: https://media.reading.gov.uk/news/eight-extra-electric-buses-heading-for-reading

 

[Edvid]

Hmm, no. This is just rehashing the announcement from April. I don't see what's materially changed.

The April announcement stated the eight additional buses are expected to be the same model, i.e. Reading Buses had not ordered them at the time.

Now they have. This is no different to the (generally longer) gaps between ZEBRA 2 award announcements and confirmation of firm orders.

 

[crablab]

The April announcement stated the eight additional buses are expected to be the same model, i.e. Reading Buses had not ordered them at the time.

Ah, I see the distinction you're drawing. Thanks for clarifying - I'd assumed the press released I'd linked to was that confirmation of order.

As I said before, it's a shame the lead time is so long.

And it's also a shame they've not specified the double doors, as on the 17. The 26 is a similar high-density metro route with lots of stops

 

[Man of Kent]

Ah, I see the distinction you're drawing. Thanks for clarifying - I'd assumed the press released I'd linked to was that confirmation of order.

As I said before, it's a shame the lead time is so long.

And it's also a shame they've not specified the double doors, as on the 17. The 26 is a similar high-density metro route with lots of stops

I'm fairly certain that the new buses for the 17 will be to single door spec. Certainly, travelling on the existing ones shows that both drivers and passengers seem reluctant to use the centre door.

 

[buslad1988]

Here is the announcement on Route One

Reading Buses takes Enviro400EV orders to 32 with further batch - routeone

Reading Buses has confirmed an order for a further eight Alexander Dennis Enviro400EV battery-electric double-deckers.

www.route-one.net

Clever use of the zebra brand there - in keeping with their other animal brands too!

 

[Bungle158]

I'm fairly certain that the new buses for the 17 will be to single door spec. Certainly, travelling on the existing ones shows that both drivers and passengers seem reluctant to use the centre door.

Interesting, Reading Corporation Transport were at the forefront of dual door operation back in the late 50s with their AEC single decker. Everyone seemed to know the 'rules' and obeyed them. Of course RCT was a much smaller operation back then and the routes served carried mainly locals.

 

[crablab]

Certainly, travelling on the existing ones shows that both drivers and passengers seem reluctant to use the centre door.

Not my experience. It's a rare occasion when the driver doesn't use them.
If Reading Buses committed more wholeheartedly they would work better, and boarding times might be substantially improved.
I don't know if the issue is perceived revenue risk - I've never seen anyone dodge fares like that.

Clever use of the zebra brand there - in keeping with their other animal brands too!

Zebra, the thermal printer company, have a significant presence down the road in Basingstoke. Maybe they could explore sponsorship :P

 

[Thames99]

I think the problem regarding centre doors on the 17 is that not all stops are considered suitable or safe to use them. If the centre doors opened at every stop to let people off, passengers would consistently use them. There is a tendency to walk towards the front door in case the centre door stays closed and you miss your stop.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The new Thames Valley 704 mentioned previously in this thread (hourly Mon-Sat, Maidenhead to Heathrow) has had its official publicity made available.

New Service taking off from Maidenhead to Heathrow​

2 days ago Fri 16th May 2025

The 704.
That's the buzz that Maidenhead folks have been talking about since we announced our intention to reintroduce the town's direct bus service to Heathrow Airport.
Ever since the link was lost in 2023, there has been a campaign to restore this vital link. Well, we listened and here it is!
The 704 will run straight along Bath Road to Slough and Langley, then direct to Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 via Colnbrook bypass. Running hourly from early mornings on Mondays to Saturdays, it's the quick way to Terminal 5 from where there are free onward connections to all parts of the airport. Indeed, as a transport hub, Heathrow has connections to bus, coach and rail services to destinations all over the country.
Look out for our striking white and green buses, which are fitted with special racks for all your luggage. It all starts on Monday 2nd June, just in time for the summer holiday season.
Click here for our new route and timetable leaflet or use our online journey planner.

Source: https://www.thamesvalleybuses.com/new-service-taking-maidenhead-heathrow

 

[Fletcj10]

I think the problem regarding centre doors on the 17 is that not all stops are considered suitable or safe to use them. If the centre doors opened at every stop to let people off, passengers would consistently use them. There is a tendency to walk towards the front door in case the centre door stays closed and you miss your stop.

I remember when they first entered service there was audio announcements to say "don't use the centre doors" or something for certain stops however that's now gone, i have to say its a good idea but the use of them is not very good for Reading as they need to adapt them on more routes not just 17 to make it more worth while, i would personally say, emerald, yellow, skyblue, maybe even white knights for it to make slightly more sense more routes more knowledge, i have seen driver both use & not use them at stops they can be used for which then confuses people.

If the rumors are true and they go onto skyblue the ex purple (soon to be) then it will be great.