Short fairing/wrong Railcard

[epileptictrave]

Hi there,

Today I tried to board the 9:24 train in an emergency from Waterloo to Farnham. I had purchased a ticket from Surbiton to Farnham and had a freedom pass to cover the rest of the journey.
The guard mentioned that I couldn't use my freedom pass until 9:30 and so, regrettably, I followed someone through the barriers and was caught on the train. I'm not proud of it and offered to pay immediately. Two revenue protection officers then took my details and found that I'd accidentally been using a 16-25 Railcard instead of a 26-30, which I had and could produce. I hadn't realised this was linked to my account and so I had accidentally been using a 16-25 Railcard for some time even though it's the same discount price.

I apologized and offered to pay a fine asap and that my disability means sometimes attention to detail is lacking. They said they'd email me. I'm wondering how much I can expect the fine to be? Will they track back through all of my SWR journeys? I've never been caught before and was a genuine mistake on the Railcard part.

 

[furlong]

Are you sure it was always the same discount price with the two railcards? There can be differences in terms of morning minimum fares on different dates etc.
So long as the fares really were the same, they shouldn't take any fare recovery action in respect of the railcard (as they suffered no net loss - and historically it was acceptable to select 16-25 when using 26-30 anyway).

I presume this is a valid Disabled Person's Freedom Pass issued in your name.

What was the sequence of events - "the guard mentioned" and "I followed someone through the barriers"? Did the guard tell you it wasn't valid BEFORE you followed someone through?

Did you admit to the revenue protection officers that you deliberately followed someone through the barriers?
Did you admit to knowing it wasn't valid on non-TfL National Rail services before 9.30am?
If the answer to either of those two questions was 'yes' did the officers make a record of that?

(The underlying question here is, will they have obtained evidence that you knew what you were doing was wrong before you did it - but you did it anyway?)

When they look at your travel history, might it suggest you've done the same thing before? If so, expect to be invited to reimburse them for additional journeys.

In law, you owe them the difference between what you actually paid and what you should have paid (based on the first station at which the train stopped and departed after 9.30am when the pass became valid). Often they try to add on administrative charges, usually seen as higher than justified and not necessarily enforceable in full (but rarely challenged). Often they at first try to charge you twice for some of the travel or charge it at higher rates but that can sometimes be overturned. The principle is they cannot profit from what you did - only recoup any actual losses (but they may be viewed sometimes as exaggerating these).

Further, you could be prosecuted and fined by a court which leads to having to pay out significantly more money (hundreds, depending on your income). But if you co-operate with them, they'll normally agree not to do this.

For now you can only wait to see what letter and/or email they send you.

 

[Pushpit]

Just in case there is a next time: that 09:24 is a particularly slow train. You can take the 09:30 to Woking and change back on to that service, allowing you to leave after the 09:30 restriction and yet arrive at the same time. Unfortinately if you want to use it, you will need a Boundary extension ticket since the 09:30 is non-stop to Woking, so being in a rush makes that tricky to do quickly. Some apps can build it in.

There may be some mitigation due to your disability, but crashing the barriers doesn't look like lack of attention to detail - the opposite in fact.

 

[epileptictrave]

Thank you so much.

Yes, they did tell me and I fully admitted when caught on the train that I knew I shouldn't have done this.

And I believe the 16-25 and 25-30 Railcards have the same exemptions.


I'll await the letter, of course, but would you know in what bracket the fine might be?

 

[AlterEgo]

And I believe the 16-25 and 25-30 Railcards have the same exemptions.

They don’t. 16-25 has no minimum fare in July and August. If they detect you’ve used the discount to avoid a minimum fare before 10am in those months you’ll be on the hook for those. There’s also no discount on the Caledonian Sleeper for the 26-30 although that’s quite niche.

I'll await the letter, of course, but would you know in what bracket the fine might be?

The admin fee is low three figures (£100 or so) but the avoided fares…it depends on the above.

 

[epileptictrave]

They don’t. 16-25 has no minimum fare in July and August. If they detect you’ve used the discount to avoid a minimum fare before 10am in those months you’ll be on the hook for those. There’s also no discount on the Caledonian Sleeper for the 26-30 although that’s quite niche.


The admin fee is low three figures (£100 or so) but the avoided fares…it depends on the above.

Thank you so much.

I will send the letter when it arrives but am panicking a lot that it'll exceed what I can genuinely afford.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you so much.

I will send the letter when it arrives but am panicking a lot that it'll exceed what I can genuinely afford.

As an aside, have you considered a Disabled Person’s railcard? You may qualify if you meet the criteria for a Freedom Pass. https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/ it’s cheaper, has almost no restrictions, and a companion also gets a discount.

 

[Gloster]

Two points:

If they go back through your journey history it will be on all train companies services, not just South Western Railway. However, I don’t think they include Transport for London.

It seems to me that the investigation fees and costs charged by South Western Railway are more than those applied by other companies. SWR‘s seem to start in the £200-250 range.

 

[epileptictrave]

Two points:

If they go back through your journey history it will be on all train companies services, not just South Western Railway. However, I don’t think they include Transport for London.

It seems to me that the investigation fees and costs charged by South Western Railway are more than those applied by other companies. SWR‘s seem to start in the £200-250 range.

Thank you. I haven't made any other journeys before 9:30 with the freedom pass so do you think they will accept this as a one off? If I apologise of course

They don’t. 16-25 has no minimum fare in July and August. If they detect you’ve used the discount to avoid a minimum fare before 10am in those months you’ll be on the hook for those. There’s also no discount on the Caledonian Sleeper for the 26-30 although that’s quite niche.


The admin fee is low three figures (£100 or so) but the avoided fares…it depends on the above.

Th

 

[Iggy12a]

Just in case there is a next time: that 09:24 is a particularly slow train. You can take the 09:30 to Woking and change back on to that service, allowing you to leave after the 09:30 restriction and yet arrive at the same time. Unfortinately if you want to use it, you will need a Boundary extension ticket since the 09:30 is non-stop to Woking, so being in a rush makes that tricky to do quickly. Some apps can build it in.

There may be some mitigation due to your disability, but crashing the barriers doesn't look like lack of attention to detail - the opposite in fact.

I thought a Surbiton to Farnham ticket would be just as valid as a Boundary Zone 6 to Farnham ticket, in conjunction with the Freedom Pass?

 

[Kite159]

I thought a Surbiton to Farnham ticket would be just as valid as a Boundary Zone 6 to Farnham ticket, in conjunction with the Freedom Pass?

Both are valid when used in conjunction with a freedom pass.

 

[Haywain]

I thought a Surbiton to Farnham ticket would be just as valid as a Boundary Zone 6 to Farnham ticket, in conjunction with the Freedom Pass?

It would, but the Freedom Pass wasn't valid at that time.

 

[epileptictrave]

Two points:

If they go back through your journey history it will be on all train companies services, not just South Western Railway. However, I don’t think they include Transport for London.

It seems to me that the investigation fees and costs charged by South Western Railway are more than those applied by other companies. SWR‘s seem to start in the £200-250 range.

Do you know how long they usually take to issue a letter?

 

[Hadders]

SWR seem to have a bit of a backlog at the moment so letters can take several weeks to arrive.