Battery EMU infrastructure

[bluenoxid]

Battery powered/assisted traction appears to be increasingly advocated for the DMU replacement programmes that are going to be coming up over the next decade. DMUs are currently outbased overnight at various locations that don’t have refuelling facilities. In terms of the new trains with battery technology, do we think that the majority will need/benefit from overnight charging?

My impression of some of the work done for bus operators is that they’ve really struggled upgrading some depots and stops located at places like Park and Rides. It would be bonkers for rail stabling sidings/railway stations to have diesel generators running because the lead in time for new reasonably sized grid connections is significant.

 

[Trainbike46]

I would suspect most BEMUs would primarily charge from OHLE and Third Rail encountered while in service, so that would sidestep the issue with grid connections at depots and other stabling locations. If grid connection requests are put in as the new BEMU stock is ordered, given the long delivery time for new trains, that would likely resolve the issue for most locations. I would be very surprised if diesel generators are used for any significant portion of BEMUs, if they are used at all.

 

[HSTEd]

The railway is already in possession of numerous high voltage connections to the electricity system, many of which are poorly utilised at night.

With appropriate feeder provisioning, either using overhead pole lines or buried cables, it should be possible to provide a suitable supply to most stabling points, even if new grid connections would take too long.

Outside the West of England and Northern Scotland, whats the furthest a stabling point is from an electric railway?

 

[bluenoxid]

Thank you for your replies. I hadn’t thought about extending a supply from the existing rail network using the existing grid supply points.

I think the places that I would be thinking of are:
Barrow
Cleethorpes
Harrogate
Scarborough?
Blackburn?
Teesside
Sheffield

 

[The exile]

Thank you for your replies. I hadn’t thought about extending a supply from the existing rail network using the existing grid supply points.

I think the places that I would be thinking of are:
Barrow
Cleethorpes
Harrogate
Scarborough?
Blackburn?
Teesside
Sheffield

No guarantees, but there might be shiny new OHLE in Sheffield by the time concerned.

 

[Zomboid]

A battery charging supply wouldn't need to be hugely powerful at those kinds of places - none of them are exactly Neville Hill - and overnight a slow rate of charge would be preferable for both loading and battery life reasons.

An along track feeder would probably be much more expensive (and a bigger ongoing liability) than tapping into the local 11 or 33kV networks.

 

[MarkyT]

A battery charging supply wouldn't need to be hugely powerful at those kinds of places - none of them are exactly Neville Hill - and overnight a slow rate of charge would be preferable for both loading and battery life reasons.

The supply can also have its own storage where expedient, so could slowly build up it's charge state from a modest local DNO connection while there are no trains present and then either trickle that into units while stabled overnight or give an occasional fast charge to one arriving unexpectedly depleted and needing a quick turnaround.

 

[HSTEd]

A battery charging supply wouldn't need to be hugely powerful at those kinds of places - none of them are exactly Neville Hill - and overnight a slow rate of charge would be preferable for both loading and battery life reasons.

An along track feeder would probably be much more expensive (and a bigger ongoing liability) than tapping into the local 11 or 33kV networks.

We could be dealing numerous units on a stabling point/depot with megawatt hour range batteries.
The charging power could easily be several megawatts for the entire night.
I am skeptical that the 11kV system is going to like that kind of load, at least not without requiring major DNO controlled upgrades.

Even 33kV will probably require significant work on the DNO side.

DNO connection requests are operating on rather long lead times, as the bus industry is discovering now.

 

[mike57]

I think another issue could be load on the grid infrastructure overall, not any particular connection/charging point, but the fact that there will multiple ones spread around the country. Add to this the increase in overnight charging of electric cars, and one can see a time where distribution infrastructure is going to need upgrading nationwide (we may even be at that point). Network reliability will probably suffer as everything will be working harder/hotter.

 

[Zomboid]

I am skeptical that the 11kV system is going to like that kind of load, at least not without requiring major DNO controlled upgrades.

Even 33kV will probably require significant work on the DNO side.

Outside DC electrified areas, the DNOs are much better placed to deal with that kind of distribution than NR is.

It may drive upgrades to the DNO network, but laying 25kV cables along NR routes would be an expensive undertaking, and maintenance access would forever be a challenge.

 

[zwk500]

Outside DC electrified areas, the DNOs are much better placed to deal with that kind of distribution than NR is.

It may drive upgrades to the DNO network, but laying 25kV cables along NR routes would be an expensive undertaking, and maintenance access would forever be a challenge.

Thankfully, there's relatively little of the DC network that would need batteries given the rather more comprehensive coverage of third rail vs OLE.

 

[Zomboid]

Thankfully, there's relatively little of the DC network that would need batteries given the rather more comprehensive coverage of third rail vs OLE.

DC wise I think the only places off the already electrified network where overnight charging would be necessary are Salisbury and Exeter.

The depot power supplies at Wimbledon, Selhurst etc might need upgrading depending on how close to the edge they already are, but that's clearly within NRs gift to address that - and the battery trains around there will be a minority of the fleet that might use the depots, so chances are it won't be a big uplift in power draw.

 

[zwk500]

DC wise I think the only places off the already electrified network where overnight charging would be necessary are Salisbury and Exeter.

The depot power supplies at Wimbledon, Selhurst etc might need upgrading depending on how close to the edge they already are, but that's clearly within NRs gift to address that - and the battery trains around there will be a minority of the fleet that might use the depots, so chances are it won't be a big uplift in power draw.

Battery units would be needed for Ashford-Ore, Oxted-Uckfield, North Downs, Salisbury loop and WoE services. So I don't think Wimbledon will need to be charging much if anything overnight. Selhurst will need a modest amount of charging for the Uckfield units, North Downs is worked from Reading, where the 25KV electrification might need a boost to cope with that and others (or it could switch to Selhurst/Three Bridges), and then Brighton, Eastbourne, St Leonards or Ashford (or combination thereof) could need something to help charging overnight.

If Salisbury has charging then any Fawley branch services could be worked by BEMUs from there. If Hoo ever reopened charging should be sufficient within the DC network anyway. Don't think there'd be anything else in third rail land likely to require BEMU operation in the medium term. The only other major change for the DC network would be if all trains were fitted with emergency traction batteries to allow them to self-rescue if the juice gets cut for any reason, but they'd be limited capacity anyway and wouldn't be discharging in the same way.

 

[HSTEd]

It may drive upgrades to the DNO network, but laying 25kV cables along NR routes would be an expensive undertaking, and maintenance access would forever be a challenge.

Well the cables don't necessarily have to be laid along existing Network RAil rights of way.
But that may require legislation to allow Network Rail to treat for wayleave (Does anyone know what the current legal situation is?)

The real problem is that the DNOs, along with the rest of the electricity supply industry, are proving unequal to the task of decarbonisation.
The entire industry appears rather schlerotic at present, the wait times for DNO modifications grow longer every year.

I ended up waiting six months for the DNO to move my electricity meter two metres. The situation for bus companies is far worse.

 

[Zomboid]

NR owned cables in the road won't be any easier to deal with - and may be harder, as access would require road closures. And across private land would be no easier.

 

[HSTEd]

NR owned cables in the road won't be any easier to deal with - and may be harder, as access would require road closures. And across private land would be no easier.

Road closures are considerably less expensive and disruptive than railway closures, and access to private land is routinely obtained by statutory undertakings for access to wayleave'd cable/overhead line routes.

The alternative is the railway sits around doing nothing whilst the DNOs dithers and road decarbonisation proceeds. Every month of delay weakens the railways position.

 

[Zomboid]

Depends on which road it is.

The power has to come from the DNO one way or the other.

 

[Trainbike46]

Depends on which road it is.

The power has to come from the DNO one way or the other.

except of course for the railway it does not, given how many 25kv OHLE is fed directly from national grid without going through a DNO.

Road closures are considerably less expensive and disruptive than railway closures, and access to private land is routinely obtained by statutory undertakings for access to wayleave'd cable/overhead line routes.

The alternative is the railway sits around doing nothing whilst the DNOs dithers and road decarbonisation proceeds. Every month of delay weakens the railways position.

I agree the railway needs to pick up the pace significantly.

However, I don't think we get to blame the delays on DNO delays. There are many DMUs that could be replaced with BEMUs without any further infrastructure - Northern and others just need to get on and order the BEMUs, and retain their newest DMUs for the routes where a BEMU isn't suitable yet, for now.

We can't survive on just the low-hanging fruit, but we do need to speed up the pace, and low-hanging fruit is a very sensible place to start.

 

[Zomboid]

except of course for the railway it does not, given how many 25kv OHLE is fed directly from national grid without going through a DNO.

Ok, DNO or TNO, then.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

No guarantees, but there might be shiny new OHLE in Sheffield by the time concerned.

OHLE in Sheffield -yes. Grid feeder I thought probably nearer Chesterfield.

 

[MarkyT]

NR owned cables in the road won't be any easier to deal with - and may be harder, as access would require road closures. And across private land would be no easier.

How much maintenance is required for the high-voltage cables? Perhaps they could be located further from the rails but still inside railway property, either buried or on poles. That could enable battery-equipped trains to continue running while a HV feeder segment is isolated for a repair, with cable jointers working a safe distance from the track even if they needed a short-term closure to walk from the nearest access point to the repair site. With battery-equipped trains, the repair might be deferred until a quieter time when granting a possession was more practical. A pole route might be accessible via a rail-mounted cherry picker for repair. A partnership arrangement with a DNO might allow such a new feeder system to also be used for general distribution to strengthen the local grid and connect new loads and supplies, and distributed storage might also be built-in to the design to improve resilience and peak load capacity.

 

[Zomboid]

How much maintenance is required for the high-voltage cables?

Depends on the cable, things like joint bays need inspection and obviously if there's a fault then access is required.

Buried (or troughed) cables any distance from the track will quickly become engulfed in vegetation which will need to be cleared whenever access is required, be that for physical works or inspection.

This is bread and butter stuff for DNOs, imperfect as they may be.

 

[td97]

I previously listed all the locations APCO may be required for a speculative battery EMU roll out for Northern. This was 2023, but unlikely to have significantly changed.

Based on the incomplete OLE make-up of the routes these trains will be operating, with multiple power changes during one journey, if I was a business development bod at a company specialising in APCO (automatic power changeover) balises I would be investing heavily in my relationship with NR right now. Going to be needed at...
West side: Hazel Grove, Bolton, Trafford Park, Hunts Cross, Stockport, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Ashburys, Salford Crescent, Kirkham, Manchester Victoria, Warrington BQ, Preston (Farington Curve).
East side: Skipton, Moorthorpe, Newcastle, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Leeds, Carlisle, Doncaster.
Not to mention all the future electrification limits such as Heaton Lodge, Deighton, Bradford Interchange, Micklefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Wigan Station/Crow Nest Jn.

 

[deltic08]

Thank you for your replies. I hadn’t thought about extending a supply from the existing rail network using the existing grid supply points.

I think the places that I would be thinking of are:
Barrow
Cleethorpes
Harrogate
Scarborough?
Blackburn?
Teesside
Sheffield

I hope Carnforth-Barrow and Oxenholme-Windermere will eventually have OPHLE installed with Barrow being a recharging point for Cumbrian Coast trains. Carlisle-Workington-Whitehaven line is busy enough with passenger trains, nuclear freight trains and freight to/from Workington docks to be wired leaving Whitehaven-Barrow unelectrified.
Harrogate does not need a recharging point for overnight stabling. The total unelectrified distance Leeds-Harrogate-York is 36 miles. If OHLE is installed from Skelton Junction to Poppleton, it would then be 35 miles, easily within the range of BEMUs. To be absolutely sure, electrify up the hill to Horsforth making it 31 miles with ample time under the wires for recharging including turnround. To be absolutely absolutely sure and allow electric running of London pure electric IETs, electrify to Harrogate leaving a gap of only 19 miles without having to electrify to Poppleton.
I hope Sheffield is electrified before BEMUs are needed.
Isn't Teesside having hydrogen trains? Again I hope Northallerton-Middlesbrough is eventually wired.

 

[zwk500]

I hope Carnforth-Barrow and Oxenholme-Windermere will eventually have OPHLE installed with Barrow being a recharging point for Cumbrian Coast trains.

I agree, although when it comes to prioritisation of resources, I can see these lines needing BEMU for a while.

Carlisle-Workington-Whitehaven line is busy enough with passenger trains, nuclear freight trains and freight to/from Workington docks to be wired leaving Whitehaven-Barrow unelectrified.

Freight is not really relevant to OLE benefits, especially on a slower line like this. Carnforth-Barrow and Barrow-Carlisle is generally hourly, so I'd not say it's 'busy enough', especially when the tight clearances and sea defences come into play. Carnforth-Barrow-Carlisle is definitely in the category of 'get as far as you can from the existing feed then battery'. It's possible Barrow becomes an OLE 'island', although my personal feeling is that the electrification network should be contiguous unless there's a very good reason not to be, so I'd just having charging once the OLE has got as far as reasonably possible.

Harrogate does not need a recharging point for overnight stabling. The total unelectrified distance Leeds-Harrogate-York is 36 miles. If OHLE is installed from Skelton Junction to Poppleton, it would then be 35 miles, easily within the range of BEMUs. To be absolutely sure, electrify up the hill to Horsforth making it 31 miles with ample time under the wires for recharging including turnround. To be absolutely absolutely sure and allow electric running of London pure electric IETs, electrify to Harrogate leaving a gap of only 19 miles without having to electrify to Poppleton.

Electrifying Skelton-Poppleton and at least Leeds-Horsforth makes absolute sense. Horsforth-Harrogate also has a decent case with the extra LNERs, but Bramhope Tunnel may be more than is worth it.

I hope Sheffield is electrified before BEMUs are needed.

Agreed

Isn't Teesside having hydrogen trains? Again I hope Northallerton-Middlesbrough is eventually wired.

Hydrogen is a red herring for me, it still requires fuel handling facilities and the tanks must be at high pressure to store enough hydrogen. IIRC there's nowhere on heavy rail where Hydrogen trains have got beyond a trial introduction successfully. The long-term future of the railway is All-electric, with EMUs having emergency traction batteries and BEMUs having 50-100 mile range as required. This will, obviously, require substantial expansion of the OLE network.

 

[NIT100]

Everything is dependent on what range BEMUs actually deliver. Currently the offers from Alstom, Siemens etc. are pretty poor. They are delivering about 50 mile range. The Alstom DART units are delivering 80 kms (50 miles) with an 840 kWh battery.

If you built BEMUs with a range that matched electric buses & coaches (e.g. a Yutong GTe14, with a supposed range of 340 miles on a 621 kWh battery), then as an example you could deliver full fleet electrification in Scotland with island electrification at just Aberdeen, Inverness, Fort William and Thurso.

In my opinion, that is where the work should be done in increasing BEMU range, as I think it would be the lower cost option for most branch and secondary lines against discontinuous electrification with infill every 30-40 miles

 

[AlastairFraser]

Blackburn?

You could quite easily extend OHLE from the WCML spur at Lostock Hall to Blackburn and electrify the sidings there, it's only around 9 miles from the current end of electrification and there's only one major issue to sort out with the signal box at Bamber Bridge (perhaps you could replace it with a CCTV monitored crossing here anyway).

 

[HSTEd]

I hope Carnforth-Barrow and Oxenholme-Windermere will eventually have OPHLE installed with Barrow being a recharging point for Cumbrian Coast trains. Carlisle-Workington-Whitehaven line is busy enough with passenger trains, nuclear freight trains and freight to/from Workington docks to be wired leaving Whitehaven-Barrow unelectrified.

Nuclear freight will fall off precipitously in the next few years as the remaining AGRs shut down and complete defuelling.
Any new nuclear facilities will generate essentially no railfreight at all, as they all have waste strategies based on on-site storage rather than shipment to sellafield etc.

Harrogate does not need a recharging point for overnight stabling. The total unelectrified distance Leeds-Harrogate-York is 36 miles. If OHLE is installed from Skelton Junction to Poppleton, it would then be 35 miles, easily within the range of BEMUs. To be absolutely sure, electrify up the hill to Horsforth making it 31 miles with ample time under the wires for recharging including turnround. To be absolutely absolutely sure and allow electric running of London pure electric IETs, electrify to Harrogate leaving a gap of only 19 miles without having to electrify to Poppleton.

You won't get much electrification for the cost of a charging island, unfortunately.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Nuclear freight will fall off precipitously in the next few years as the remaining AGRs shut down and complete defuelling.
Any new nuclear facilities will generate essentially no railfreight at all, as they all have waste strategies based on on-site storage rather than shipment to sellafield etc.

Is it possible that we continue importing nuclear fuel for decommissioning at Sellafield, and then we ship it out again?

 

[Nottingham59]

Everything is dependent on what range BEMUs actually deliver. Currently the offers from Alstom, Siemens etc. are pretty poor. They are delivering about 50 mile range. The Alstom DART units are delivering 80 kms (50 miles) with an 840 kWh battery.

Looks like BEMUs will need around 2MWh batteries, then. How much would they weigh? And cost?

(And a small diesel engine running on HVO, for emergency use only.)