Service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[Failed Unit]

Yesterday was not a good day on Great Northern, in the morning an object was caught in the overhead wires near Brookmans Park. A Brighton - Cambridge service was first in the queue. Some services where diverted via the Hertford Loop which of course resulted in thinning out of the Metro.

One thing I don’t understand is why trains such as the 0805 Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate ran over 1 hour late, rather then not just cancel them and start again with an on-time 0905 Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate. Appreciate that this messes up diagrams, but the incident had already messed up diagrams.

In the evening the 1702 Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City left about 17 mins late. Run non-stop from Finsbury Park- Welwyn Garden City was the controllers decision. This would have actually got the diagram back on time. The train would have left Finsbury Park at 1733 (which it did) and probably arrived at Welwyn Garden City for 1753 ready to return at 1805. However it appears network rail didn’t know about the cunning plan and let the 1727 Kings Cross - Cambridge service out ahead of it. It was followed on Yellows so the benefit of cutting the stops had minimal impact as we arrived at 1802. Poor person in the control probably wondering why the bothered.

I don’t get some of the timetable planning they have made with the Sevenoaks service. The running ECS of the stock to form the 0802 Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks seems bizzare. It was cancelled this morning because of over-running engineering works at Cambridge. Yesterday the unit to form it was caught in the train jam in the Potters Bar area. If this was on a self contained diagram this would work much better. The long wait at Welwyn Garden City also doesn’t help. I have witnessed on many occasions the 0832 get delayed because the 0815 arrival hasn’t cleared the platform (because it was late in). If the 0815 formed the 0832, the turnaround could be done on platform. Now if the 0815 leaves say at 0828, the run into the sidings is slow. The 0832 can’t start its journey until it is in, so again it runs late.

I notice many commenting about the time it takes to get trains out of service at Letchworth. When the 12 cars (Brighton - Cambridge) are turned there, is it a bit slicker, as this is a common situation in disruption.

Hopefully come December the diagrams (both Staff and Stock) are a little more self contained.

 

[jon0844]

There was a fatality at Mill Hill Broadway that impacted a lot of services on the ECML in the evening peak too (on account of the 9xxx services being delayed).

One Cambridge train is formed of a Sevenoaks to WGC service that runs empty back to King's Cross, so I believe that ran fast to CBG and WGC had a King's Lynn service stop there. All a bit of a mess.

 

[Failed Unit]

There was a fatality at Mill Hill Broadway that impacted a lot of services on the ECML in the evening peak too (on account of the 9xxx services being delayed).

One Cambridge train is formed of a Sevenoaks to WGC service that runs empty back to King's Cross, so I believe that ran fast to CBG and WGC had a King's Lynn service stop there. All a bit of a mess.

There was a Cambridge - Brighton service on Platform 2 yesterday. It went to Kings Cross instead, not sure if the plan was originally to do a driver swap. Good for the passengers heading to london as it was a WGC for a long time, they could take the following “2C“ service.

 

[Magdalia]

I don’t get some of the timetable planning they have made with the Sevenoaks service. The running ECS of the stock to form the 0802 Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks seems bizzare. It was cancelled this morning because of over-running engineering works at Cambridge. Yesterday the unit to form it was caught in the train jam in the Potters Bar area. If this was on a self contained diagram this would work much better.

One Cambridge train is formed of a Sevenoaks to WGC service that runs empty back to King's Cross,

This was introduced in December 2024. It saves a unit which has been redeployed as part of reinstating various Peterborough and Letchworth services.

In the morning the unit off 0526 Cambridge-Kings Cross goes empty for 0802 Welwyn-Sevenoaks. In the evening the unit off 1652 Sevenoaks-Welwyn goes empty for 1927 Kings Cross-Cambridge.

 

[Watershed]

This was introduced in December 2024. It saves a unit which has been redeployed as part of reinstating various Peterborough and Letchworth services.

In the morning the unit off 0526 Cambridge-Kings Cross goes empty for 0802 Welwyn-Sevenoaks. In the evening the unit off 1652 Sevenoaks-Welwyn goes empty for 1927 Kings Cross-Cambridge.

Sounds like a false economy to me given the lack of resilience it introduces.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sounds like a false economy to me given the lack of resilience it introduces.

I wonder how it saves a unit compared to interworking with the Ely set like they do for the rest of the day.

 

[jon0844]

Sounds like a false economy to me given the lack of resilience it introduces.

Given the absolute state of trains that come from Sevenoaks, I feel for those who take that train out of King's Cross later. That's unless it gets a clean when it arrives at King's Cross.

 

[Magdalia]

I wonder how it saves a unit compared to interworking with the Ely set like they do for the rest of the day.

This also saves a train, but, perhaps more importantly, it also saves a platform at Kings Cross. My reading of the December 2025 draft timetable is that this interworking will no longer be necessary after the December 2025 changes.

Sounds like a false economy to me given the lack of resilience it introduces.

There are no more trains, so economies like these have to be made in order to run more peak time trains to/from Peterborough/Letchworth.

You can't eat your cake and have it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Actually I can sort of see how. It is nearly a 30 min dwell between a Ely / Kings Lynn arrival and the Stopping service. Not acceptable in the peak. I can look at some of the published diagrams but I am sure some interwork with the peak Peterborough.

I have seen them terminating at Cambridge- London at Welwyn to send the kings Lynn north on time. Gets the set back on time. Doesn’t help the passengers at London.

 

[Magdalia]

I can look at some of the published diagrams but I am sure some interwork with the peak Peterborough.

This is what releases a unit to work to/from Sevenoaks. The 0605 from Peterborough forms the 0727 to Cambridge, freeing up the unit off the 0526 from Cambridge to go to Welwyn. In the evening the 1726 from Cambridge can form the 1918 to Peterborough because there is a unit coming in from Welwyn to work the 1927 to Cambridge.

To introduce the resilience you want you have to take the 0605 from Peterborough and 1918 to Peterborough out of the timetable.

I have seen them terminating at Cambridge- London at Welwyn to send the kings Lynn north on time. Gets the set back on time. Doesn’t help the passengers at London.

It is the single line sections in the Fens and short turn rounds at Kings Lynn that necessitate that.

As I have already pointed out, it should be much reduced after the December 2025 changes.

 

[Failed Unit]

Today - I find the lack of communications frustrating.

This morning there was a passenger taken on the Moorgate Branch, these things happen and the driver tpld us the train would be diverted into Kings Cross. This gives passengers for Moorgate 2 options. 1. remain on and take the tube, or 2 which is better head to Farringdon and change there (if the service isn't too far away). The didn't say that upon departing Finsbury park we would be held for the Farringdon trian to pass. I minor irritation compared to tonight.

Signal problems at Royston. The 1627 Kings Cross - Cambridge left late. (They never said at kings cross it would be 13 minutes late). Just before Finsbury Park they announced it would run non-stop to Stevenage. On arriving at Stevenage you watch the 1649 service to Welwyn Garden City depart. Had they said at Kings Cross that the service would not stop after Finsbury Park, we could have all caught the service from St Pancras to Welwyn Garden City.

Rant over. Strange how they don't seem to let passengers know of thier plans so they can get from A-B quicker.

 

[Max]

I'll give credit to Great Northern tonight, they kept things going in very challenging circumstances. Signal failure (that's what we were told anyway) between Cambridge and Cambridge North at around 5.30, which obviously decimated the service north of Cambridge. However, despite looking like everything was going to grind to a halt (due to southbound trains being stuck north of Cambridge North), GTR managed to reinstate some services by turning Kings Lynn bound trains at Cambridge. This was obviously the common sense thing to do but that doesn't always mean anything on Great Northern based on past experience and I appreciate their efforts to keep things moving between Cambridge and London.

 

[MikeWM]

I'll give credit to Great Northern tonight, they kept things going in very challenging circumstances. Signal failure (that's what we were told anyway) between Cambridge and Cambridge North at around 5.30, which obviously decimated the service north of Cambridge.

Yes, and while it wasn't a particularly fun evening for those of us trying to go north (I got home over 3 hours later than expected...), they did manage to run a decent % of the usual service to Kings Lynn once the line had reopened, with only minor delays. Certainly significantly better than I've seen them do in the past. So the credit is deserved this time, I think.

I do wonder if the signal failure was related to whatever engineering work they were doing on Sunday that closed the line between Cambridge and Ely, but I digress..

 

[notverydeep]

With yesterday's late running 2C65 2026 Cambridge to London King's Cross skip stopping between Stevenage and King's Cross and the following 2R67 2127 Letchworth to King's Cross cancelled between Letchworth and Welwyn Garden City there ended up being a 90 minute gap between stopping services southbound at Stevenage (and a not very entertaining 65 minute wait for me). I can't help thinking that skip stopping the first between WGC and London King's Cross would have been a better option and would have cost at most four minutes of 2C65's recovery would have been more coherent and would have facilitated a much shorter delay to local passengers.

Still watching 66701 restart 4L08 1328 Doncaster to London Gateway container train from a crew change in the platform at Stevenage with full power taken more or less immediately was a highlight...

 

[bramling]

With yesterday's late running 2C65 2026 Cambridge to London King's Cross skip stopping between Stevenage and King's Cross and the following 2R67 2127 Letchworth to King's Cross cancelled between Letchworth and Welwyn Garden City there ended up being a 90 minute gap between stopping services southbound at Stevenage (and a not very entertaining 65 minute wait for me). I can't help thinking that skip stopping the first between WGC and London King's Cross would have been a better option and would have cost at most four minutes of 2C65's recovery would have been more coherent and would have facilitated a much shorter delay to local passengers.

Still watching 66701 restart 4L08 1328 Doncaster to London Gateway container train from a crew change in the platform at Stevenage with full power taken more or less immediately was a highlight...

Another example of poor working today.

1227 Letchworth to King’s Cross. Over 10 late starting from Letchworth. It was being announced as due to awaiting train crew, yet the train was waiting in the turnback at Letchworth complete with driver, and the relief driver was in position at Hitchin looking at his watch wondering where the train was, so this explanation isn’t really feasible.

I suspect the real reason was the service was held back to allow for a late-running down Cambridge stopping service to have preference at Letchworth, and was then held back to allow fast Fen Line services to pass through in both directions.

This is where the whole “on time trains have priority” regulating doesn’t really work, as there’s an element of double standards with it. So it’s okay to delay your on-time train if, for example, it’s decided to divert an LNER train to the slow lines, but having been delayed by that your train is now late and gets destroyed in the regulating queue thanks to being late.

Anyway having left Hitchin nearly 15 late, the run to Welwyn was reasonably slick, where it was then announced that the train would run fast to Finsbury Park. All well and good, except that the train was then held at Welwyn Garden City for several minutes waiting to be turned out to the fast lines, preference being given to a Thameslink service, even though there seemed to be ample time to have got the train out in front of that.

The rest of the run was uneventful, though arrival at King’s Cross was 10 late, albeit it did mean the next working would have got out on time. Of course, King’s Cross did their usual of advertising the next service just as the incoming train was arriving, so cue some further aggravation having to work through the army of dopey Cambridge passengers all trying to board at the London end.

So on balance it seems like they almost created a delay in order to try having to recover, as the whole thing seems quite avoidable. Likewise in the time wasted at Welwyn there was ample time for the train to have made its Hatfield call. Now personally it didn’t bother me (as from a selfish point of view it kept the train empty), however anyone doing a journey like Stevenage to Hatfield copped a half hour delay all in all. If you’re going to implement intrusive measures like skipping stops, the onus should be on the operator to make damn sure that they’re a last resort and the minimum possible to achieve the outcome, whereas in this case clearly a Hatfield call could have been made with no issue.

So outwardly not the best reflection on both signalling and control, which seems to be a trend on this route nowadays.

 

[Failed Unit]

The lack of urgency and joined up thinking is very frustrating

Yesterday, the 1627 London - Cambridge was running late because of the inbound. The platform staff decided to lock the gates and put a rope up to prevent boarding passengers onto Platform 10. The platform was announced at Kings Cross queue a crush at the barrier, but the staff held firm and waited for the last passenger off the train. Then we could start boarding. People wanting to board included a wheelchair which surely you could have thought they could have taken to the right door while the exCambridge passengers left. All this added an extra 5 minutes to the delay compared to letting us just wait on the platform as the Cambridge passengers left. Had the trusted us on the platform they may not have needed to skip stop.

The morning had the same strange logic. The 0823 Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate waited for the later running Moorgate service to arrive. Again had they let the 0823 leave on time, it would have gone before the Moorgate arrival had got to the signal section. Even if it lost 1 more minute it wouldn’t impact the return journey. This trip was further delay by the signal issues at Potters Bar.

My other example of lack of urgency. The 1732 Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City service was on time at New Barnet. It lost time all the way to Welwyn Garden City (again delaying the 1823 Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate as it was given priority to get in Welwyn Garden City). The section times are still the same as when there 313s rulled the route. The performance of the 717s is better but why can’t they do Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City in 50 minutes like the 313s did for 40 years.

 

[bramling]

The lack of urgency and joined up thinking is very frustrating

Yesterday, the 1627 London - Cambridge was running late because of the inbound. The platform staff decided to lock the gates and put a rope up to prevent boarding passengers onto Platform 10. The platform was announced at Kings Cross queue a crush at the barrier, but the staff held firm and waited for the last passenger off the train. Then we could start boarding. People wanting to board included a wheelchair which surely you could have thought they could have taken to the right door while the exCambridge passengers left. All this added an extra 5 minutes to the delay compared to letting us just wait on the platform as the Cambridge passengers left. Had the trusted us on the platform they may not have needed to skip stop.

King’s Cross is getting really odd about holding people back. They seem to do it almost at random, and a lot of the time there’s no need. Yet other times they do the worst of all worlds, which is to announce the departing service just as the incoming train is on its immediate approach (as the TD enters the platform berth, presumably).

I’ve seen them have all the suburban gates blocking incoming even at very quiet times of day, which is really annoying - to the point where I’ve been quite shirty about it and made a point of walking round via platform 8. I wouldn’t mind if there was logic to it, but it seems to be a new thing that’s suddenly started creeping in at random, almost like a kid who’s just got a new toy. It’s a shame as King’s Cross was always very chilled, and the whole point of the spacious new concourse was to be able to avoid all this nonsense.

The morning had the same strange logic. The 0823 Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate waited for the later running Moorgate service to arrive. Again had they let the 0823 leave on time, it would have gone before the Moorgate arrival had got to the signal section. Even if it lost 1 more minute it wouldn’t impact the return journey. This trip was further delay by the signal issues at Potters Bar.

My other example of lack of urgency. The 1732 Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City service was on time at New Barnet. It lost time all the way to Welwyn Garden City (again delaying the 1823 Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate as it was given priority to get in Welwyn Garden City). The section times are still the same as when there 313s rulled the route. The performance of the 717s is better but why can’t they do Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City in 50 minutes like the 313s did for 40 years.

Tell me about it. With 387s we still can’t achieve timings that 317s managed a generation ago. Not even close.

Another one tonight. Now there could be a reason for this, but I suspect there probably isn’t…

 

[Failed Unit]

The other thing I didn’t get this morning was 2x Cambridge- Brighton services stopped at Welwyn Garden City, but not significant cancellations (lots of delays). Was this for train crew swaps?

 

[Magdalen Road]

GTR services from Kings Lynn have been disrupted this morning, the 0444 Kings Lynn - Kings Cross ran to Downham Market, showing as cancelled from Ely, reappeared at Cambridge and arrived on time at London. Subsequent services cancelled or delayed. Presumably the Cambridge departure (0539) was a different train? Is this the signal failure from yesterday again?

 

[milooo]

Bit off the current topic but still to do with GN service recovery - a 700/1 operating 2C15 due to problems at depot apparently

 

[mlb54]

A trespass incident at Peterborough at about 15.00 today was cleared by about 16.30 as far as I can see, yet it would seem all this evenings Kings Cross to Peterborough peak trains are cancelled, first one leaves at 16.42. My question is why, but more concerning will tomorrow mornings peak trains from Peterborough be cancelled as the trains will be left in London overnight?

 

[Failed Unit]

You are correct, when you look this morning 2 of the peak great northern services are cancelled. We seem to be seeing more cancellations recently because of staff shortages.

Last night the local London - Cambridge service seemed to be heavily impacted by the trespass incident which I don’t understand why as I thought the incident was north of Hitchin so these trains would be off the ECML by then unless the drivers diagrams interwork. It did present a few interesting workings such as the 1712 London- Kings Lynn running as a very full 4-car. The other frustrating thing of a Brighton-Cambridge stopping additionally at Welwyn Garden City (to cover the cancelled 1657) but the decision no communicated in time for passengers in London to take advantage of it (as we used the Sevenoaks - WGC instead)

 

[MikeWM]

You are correct, when you look this morning 2 of the peak great northern services are cancelled. We seem to be seeing more cancellations recently because of staff shortages.

...or disguised stock shortages, perhaps. Judging by threads elsewhere on the forum, it looks like we are losing 387s before the 379s are ready to take over. Certainly there seems to have been an uptick in cancellations this week (on Monday the 0916 Ely to KGX was cancelled, yesterday the 1046, this morning the 0948).

It did present a few interesting workings such as the 1712 London- Kings Lynn running as a very full 4-car.

I had the misfortune of getting on this service at Cambridge North and initially wondering why the train had gone past where I was standing on the platform, before realising it was short-formed. Fortunately enough people were getting off at CMB to allow us to squash on. Oddly (related to the 387 stock movements?) the on-train wifi was branded as 'Southern', though the train itself was still branded as GN externally. (387119, in case anyone is wondering).

Meanwhile, I haven't posted these figures in a while, so here's the still-pretty-awful figures for the 4-week rolling average of evening peak GN services to Ely:



Looking at the details, things tend to run pretty well on Fridays (presumably helped by the recovery time at Cambridge as many of these services split at Cambridge M-Th but not on Fridays) so are even worse than these averages on Mondays to Thursdays.

Excluding Fridays, the last time the 1739 got to Ely within 5 minutes of schedule was Wednesday 23rd April!

 

[bramling]

You are correct, when you look this morning 2 of the peak great northern services are cancelled. We seem to be seeing more cancellations recently because of staff shortages.

Last night the local London - Cambridge service seemed to be heavily impacted by the trespass incident which I don’t understand why as I thought the incident was north of Hitchin so these trains would be off the ECML by then unless the drivers diagrams interwork. It did present a few interesting workings such as the 1712 London- Kings Lynn running as a very full 4-car. The other frustrating thing of a Brighton-Cambridge stopping additionally at Welwyn Garden City (to cover the cancelled 1657) but the decision no communicated in time for passengers in London to take advantage of it (as we used the Sevenoaks - WGC instead)

I suspect things are tight in terms of both crews and trains, hence they just don’t have the resources to sort issues.

There’s never been enough drivers on the GN side ever since 2018, and now we have the situation where the fleet is precarious as well, which goes back to the decision to get rid of the 365s.

Performance is still pretty woeful, and unfortunately the 379s have so far proven to be something of a liability. Okay we know how the situation arose, but storing trains for long periods of time really isn’t the best thing.

 

[MikeWM]

Excluding Fridays, the last time the 1739 got to Ely within 5 minutes of schedule was Wednesday 23rd April!

...and today it hasn't yet left KGX (already 10 minutes late) so that statement will continue to be true for another day

Edit : just left KGX, 33 late.

 

[ZJ517]

...and today it hasn't yet left KGX (already 10 minutes late) so that statement will continue to be true for another day

There is apparently some sort of issue just north of New Southgate which slows everything in both direction. I'm currently in a queue of train on board 1L50 (1954 to Letchworth) making very slow progress.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is a strange one tonight, I was on the 1827 London - Cambridge service, we were on the slow going normally (We were overtaking lots of trains on the fast lines)

Going South looked awful, lots of trains in queues.Trains getting stuck behind others stopping at Harringay and Hornsey when the other line was free. The Fast southbound lines were not too bad, the slow dreadful. Which of course impacted the Kings Lynn services when the inbound stock came from Cambridge.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Excluding Fridays, the last time the 1739 got to Ely within 5 minutes of schedule was Wednesday 23rd April!

And today was the day

Realtime Trains | 1T50 1739 London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn | 15/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T50 1739 departure from London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn on 15/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[MikeWM]

And today was the day

Realtime Trains | 1T50 1739 London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn | 15/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T50 1739 departure from London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn on 15/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Indeed Looks like it was helped a bit by the signaller holding onto sending 2H57 Cambridge North to Liverpool Street and instead giving 1T50 priority - usually 2H57 seems to get priority as soon as 1T50 is more than a minute or so late, which makes 1T50 lose another 3-4 minutes.

Let's see what happens in the new timetable (though I don't think anything actually changes that is likely to affect these services).

 

[Failed Unit]

Don't worry the 379s are entering squadron service now, so we will get delays as the teams get used to the little quirks. I suspect diagrams which require splitting and joining will be later to convert.