Time for York to come in from the cold and join WY Metro

[yorksrob]

Isn't it time that York joined the WY Metro network. It's a sizable city in its own right, but like the other conurbations in this part of Yorkshire, it is economically and culturally entwined.

There aren't any large cities to the near North and East - its near large trading neighbours are to the West in West Yorkshire. Isn't it time that this geographical anomaly was sorted out once and for all ?

York deserves a properly planned and integrated transport network with its neighbours.

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't it time that York joined the WY Metro network.

It isn't in West Yorkshire for a start. Would that be the first step?

York deserves a properly planned and integrated transport network with its neighbours.

It has multiple trains to Leeds each hour.

 

[yorkie]

It isn't in West Yorkshire for a start.

Edit: Metro tickets/pricing applies extends into one station in South Yorkshire, while Travel South Yorkshire pricing extends to two stations in West Yorkshire (i.e. three stations are in both schemes). Furthermore, there are also extensions into North Yorkshire (though these are a bit bodged and don't apply to non-Season tickets)

So it's not correct to suggest that a station must be located in a particular local authority area for such ticketing to apply, if that is what you are suggesting.

Would that be the first step?

I don't think this is a serious comment, but if it is, then no.

... Isn't it time that this geographical anomaly was sorted out once and for all ?...

Yes, it would be nice if there was a decently priced multi-modal fares structure for the wider area.

However, the 'powers that be' see York to Leeds as very much a route where premium fares can be charged; I can't see them ever wanting to get rid of the premium.

Sadly, there isn't a genuine desire for modal shift, as it's seen as a burden on taxpayers.

Passengers who want to travel from York to Leeds are seen as a cash cow and very much there to be fleeced, and it would take a huge political shift away from our current car-dominated society to change that.

 

[YorksLad12]

York (City of) was supposed to be part of WYCA, and sent someone as an observer at CA meetings. But in the end they decided against, we got our elected Mayor and that was that.

There was always a good argument to be made that extending the lower fare regime out to Skipton, Harrogate and Selby would have been good - it's how we got MetroCard Zones 6 & 7 - but that's as far as it went thanks to politics, and Combined Authorities having to be contiguous areas. There's a bit of North Yorkshire between West Yorkshire and York, so that was that.

Now we have the White Rose Mayors agreement, perhaps the Weaver Network Card (TM) could be extended outside of the Weaver Network area, but I'm not holding my breath.

(I really hate the Weaver Network name, can you tell?)

 

[yorksrob]

It isn't in West Yorkshire for a start. Would that be the first step?


It has multiple trains to Leeds each hour.

Switzerland isn't in the EU, but that doesn't mean to say that it doesn't have a lot of cross border arrangements and institutions.

York does have multiple trains to Leeds, however York citizens are denied the excellent range of products, such as Metrocards that their neighbours in West Yorkshire enjoy.

 

[YorksLad12]

Metro tickets/pricing applies at three stations in South Yorkshire.

I don't think this is a serious comment, but if it is, then no.

Just Darton, I thought? It's the only SY station on the WY map with the (M) symbol.

 

[yorksrob]

York (City of) was supposed to be part of WYCA, and sent someone as an observer at CA meetings. But in the end they decided against, we got our elected Mayor and that was that.

There was always a good argument to be made that extending the lower fare regime out to Skipton, Harrogate and Selby would have been good - it's how we got MetroCard Zones 6 & 7 - but that's as far as it went thanks to politics, and Combined Authorities having to be contiguous areas. There's a bit of North Yorkshire between West Yorkshire and York, so that was that.

Now we have the White Rose Mayors agreement, perhaps the Weaver Network Card (TM) could be extended outside of the Weaver Network area, but I'm not holding my breath.

(I really hate the Weaver Network name, can you tell?)

Yes, I heard about that. It was set to join at one point, but there was a change in Councillors to ones more interested in their Range Rovers than public transport.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Isn't it time that York joined the WY Metro network. It's a sizable city in its own right, but like the other conurbations in this part of Yorkshire, it is economically and culturally entwined.

There aren't any large cities to the near North and East - its near large trading neighbours are to the West in West Yorkshire. Isn't it time that this geographical anomaly was sorted out once and for all ?

York deserves a properly planned and integrated transport network with its neighbours.

York is already part of York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority which is effectively a PTE for the area. Certainly co-operation with West Yorkshire would be sensible but the same is also true of the recently created Hull and East Yorkshire CA. Indeed for York itself it could be said the latter is the more important.

 

[JonathanH]

York does have multiple trains to Leeds, however York citizens are denied the excellent range of products, such as Metrocards that their neighbours in West Yorkshire enjoy.

Yes, York to Leeds is one of the Railway's foremost "ransom strips".

One of the issues with the Northern conurbations is not having the equivalent of an outboundary travelcard for places outside, but even with those, the fare to the boundary is charged on a return basis.

 

[yorksrob]

York is already part of York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority which is effectively a PTE for the area. Certainly co-operation with West Yorkshire would be sensible but the same is also true of the recently created Hull and East Yorkshire CA. Indeed for York itself it could be said the latter is the more important.

Whilst oversight of transport services to Harrogate and Northallerton is desirable, I suspect that transport flows between York and W Yorkshire are more significant. These passengers surely deserve some democratic input into their services ?

As @yorkie points out, bits of N Yorkshire already have arrangements with the Metro area.

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Yes, York to Leeds is one of the Railway's foremost "ransom strips".

One of the issues with the Northern conurbations is not having the equivalent of an outboundary travelcard for places outside, but even with those, the fare to the boundary is charged on a return basis.

There are also multiple routes from W Yorks into York, so Metro products would also make it easier to travel in on one and out on the other.

Its the lack of democratic oversight that allows the "ransoming" of WYorks - York passengers.

 

[Topological]

Is the logical comparison here with Reading?

The relationship with Transport for London and then the respective standings of the SWR, GWR and Elizabeth Line trains could align with Cross Country, TPE and Northern on Leeds to York.

I doubt many would want local fares to apply on CrossCountry, in the same way that cheaper tickets are not GWR between London and Reading. I do note that there are limits on how much you can save taking Elizabeth Line trains though if the intention is just to do Reading to Paddington.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just Darton, I thought? It's the only SY station on the WY map with the (M) symbol.

Darton is in South Yorkshire, but WYPTE tickets are valid there for travel to/from the West Yorkshire direction.
Denby Dale, South Elmsall and Moorthorpe are in West Yorkshire, but SYPTE tickets are valid there for travel to/from the South Yorkshire direction.

Sadly no similar reciprocal agreement is in place between West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, hence the relatively high fares for a Marsden to Greenfield journey.

 

[yorkie]

Is the logical comparison here with Reading?

The relationship with Transport for London and then the respective standings of the SWR, GWR and Elizabeth Line trains could align with Cross Country, TPE and Northern on Leeds to York.

I doubt many would want local fares to apply on CrossCountry, in the same way that cheaper tickets are not GWR between London and Reading. I do note that there are limits on how much you can save taking Elizabeth Line trains though if the intention is just to do Reading to Paddington.

I don't know what you are referring to; can you elaborate?

The PAYG fare from London to Reading is £13.60 (off peak) / £30.40 (peak), while you can see the range of single/return paper fares on BR fares:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

For example, an Off Peak Day Return (CDR) is £27.20, which is more expensive than 2x contactless singles.

There is no discount for using Elizabeth Line trains on a through fare.

This is different to York to Leeds, which has a lower fare differential, and cheaper fares on Northern:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

For example, an Off Peak Day Return (CDR) is £20.20, with a £5 discount for using Northern. Single fares are just 10p cheaper than returns, making single journeys extremely expensive.

York to Leeds is 25.27 miles; Reading to Paddington is 35.94 miles, i.e. York to Leeds is 70% of the distance of Reading to London.

If travelling one-way off-peak, Reading to Paddington is considerably cheaper than York to Leeds on an absolute basis, let alone a per-mile basis.

Reading to Paddington fares can be reduced further by splitting the journey into two, and tapping off and back on at an intermediate station along the route (however this does mean you have to step back to a later train).

 

[yorksrob]

Is the logical comparison here with Reading?

The relationship with Transport for London and then the respective standings of the SWR, GWR and Elizabeth Line trains could align with Cross Country, TPE and Northern on Leeds to York.

I doubt many would want local fares to apply on CrossCountry, in the same way that cheaper tickets are not GWR between London and Reading. I do note that there are limits on how much you can save taking Elizabeth Line trains though if the intention is just to do Reading to Paddington.

I suppose the difference is that Reading is one of many large towns orbiting the mega city of London. In a way, NSE used to act as their PTE - in that it provided products that could be used across the area - albeit without democratic oversight.

Whilst Leeds is a bit bigger than the others, York and W Yorks consist of a number of similarly sized interdependent urban areas in comparatively close proximity. It makes sense for them to have jointly managed public transport.

 

[The exile]

These passengers surely deserve some democratic input into their services ?

They have - every time there’s an election.

 

[yorksrob]

They have - every time there’s an election.

I mean meaningful democratic control. Parliament isn't going to bother organising public transport in Yorkshire.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Whilst oversight of transport services to Harrogate and Northallerton is desirable, I suspect that transport flows between York and W Yorkshire are more significant. These passengers surely deserve some democratic input into their services ?

As @yorkie points out, bits of N Yorkshire already have arrangements with the Metro area.

Perhaps additional Metro zones could be extended to York and Selby, at least for buses. Transdev seem to have a decent relationship with WYCA and they are the main operator on the Leeds to York corridor.

 

[The exile]

Whilst Leeds is a bit bigger than the others, York and W Yorks consist of a number of similarly sized interdependent urban areas in comparatively close proximity. It makes sense for them to have jointly managed public transport.

A collection of large-ish fiercely independent boroughs is probably the hardest thing to coordinate especially in a political system that encourages the idea that “I’ve only won if the others have lost”.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

I mean meaningful democratic control. Parliament isn't going to bother organising public transport in Yorkshire.

We do have local elections as well…

 

[zwk500]

I suppose the difference is that Reading is one of many large towns orbiting the mega city of London. In a way, NSE used to act as their PTE - in that it provided products that could be used across the area - albeit without democratic oversight.

Whilst Leeds is a bit bigger than the others, York and W Yorks consist of a number of similarly sized interdependent urban areas in comparatively close proximity. It makes sense for them to have jointly managed public transport.

York is surprisingly far away from the rest of the West Yorks conurbantion though. It's been about 10 years since I lived in York but my sense then was that people from York saw Leeds as being 'another place' rather than considering it part of their local area. It's got quite a different feel from Leeds, and the travel patterns are different.

It's probably worth York having access to things like WY Regional tickets but my sense of the city (I still have friends living there) is that it's not as close to Leeds's orbit as the premise of the thread presents.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps additional Metro zones could be extended to York and Selby, at least for buses. Transdev seem to have a decent relationship with WYCA and they are the main operator on the Leeds to York corridor.

The flat fares make the need for bus integration less pressing at the moment - although if that ever goes it might be useful.

However rail is the primary public transport option between York and WYorks. A metro arrangement without it would be fairly pointless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

A collection of large-ish fiercely independent boroughs is probably the hardest thing to coordinate especially in a political system that encourages the idea that “I’ve only won if the others have lost”.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==


We do have local elections as well…

And yet West Yorkshire Metro has muddled along to everyone's benefit for several years now. Public transport across the area is infinitely better than it would have been without it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

York is surprisingly far away from the rest of the West Yorks conurbantion though. It's been about 10 years since I lived in York but my sense then was that people from York saw Leeds as being 'another place' rather than considering it part of their local area. It's got quite a different feel from Leeds, and the travel patterns are different.

It's probably worth York having access to things like WY Regional tickets but my sense of the city (I still have friends living there) is that it's not as close to Leeds's orbit as the premise of the thread presents.

It should be remembered that York was involved in the Leeds City Region for some time, so there is a clear economic link between the two.


It's certainly a lot closer than to anywhere else. Just look at the transport flows.

My thread isn't saying that York will ever be a satellite of Leeds - just that transport wise there needs to be some democratic oversight.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

We do have local elections as well…

And you expect your local councillor to influence train services and fares ?

Good luck with that.

Metro and the other PTE's were set up precisely because traditional local government wasn't equipped to organise public transport across such areas.

 

[yorkie]

It's probably worth York having access to things like WY Regional tickets but my sense of the city (I still have friends living there) is that it's not as close to Leeds's orbit as the premise of the thread presents.

I think the premise is more that people from places like Castleford, Pontefract, Garforth, etc etc like to visit York!

There is a lot of travel between York & Leeds for various reasons. Demand is almost certainly stifled by the high fares (and previously lack of capacity, but that is much less an issue now, with 2 Northern trains each hour and most TPEs being 5/6 car).

 

[Topological]

I don't know what you are referring to; can you elaborate?

The PAYG fare from London to Reading is £13.60 (off peak) / £30.40 (peak), while you can see the range of single/return paper fares on BR fares:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

For example, an Off Peak Day Return (CDR) is £27.20, which is more expensive than 2x contactless singles.

There is no discount for using Elizabeth Line trains on a through fare.

This is different to York to Leeds, which has a lower fare differential, and cheaper fares on Northern:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

For example, an Off Peak Day Return (CDR) is £20.20, with a £5 discount for using Northern. Single fares are just 10p cheaper than returns, making single journeys extremely expensive.

York to Leeds is 25.27 miles; Reading to Paddington is 35.94 miles, i.e. York to Leeds is 70% of the distance of Reading to London.

If travelling one-way off-peak, Reading to Paddington is considerably cheaper than York to Leeds on an absolute basis, let alone a per-mile basis.

Reading to Paddington fares can be reduced further by splitting the journey into two, and tapping off and back on at an intermediate station along the route (however this does mean you have to step back to a later train).

Sorry

I did look into the London to Reading and then found that if I was doing Reading to Paddington as an off peak return, train split could generate a £1.60 saving for the Elizabeth line as you split at Taplow.

I thought to do rail as a comparison, because clearly if you are then going to use onward travel in London there are better options, including stepping back somewhere closer to London to tap in and out. I am not familiar with the Leeds network offers, but presume that more will come online with the Weaver Network in the way that Manchester is slowly getting closer to the tap-in-tap-out system under the Bee Network.

I used Reading because it is a line with three companies offering different products. There are probably better examples.

Essentially I could see how a Northern equivalent of the Elizabeth Line would be useful to York and how that might then have improved fare differentials on the Weaver Network*. Whether there would ever be a section where there could be sufficient frequency for tap in tap out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

York is surprisingly far away from the rest of the West Yorks conurbantion though. It's been about 10 years since I lived in York but my sense then was that people from York saw Leeds as being 'another place' rather than considering it part of their local area. It's got quite a different feel from Leeds, and the travel patterns are different.

It's probably worth York having access to things like WY Regional tickets but my sense of the city (I still have friends living there) is that it's not as close to Leeds's orbit as the premise of the thread presents.

That was more towards my thinking. Then that those tickets would not be for CrossCountry and probably not TPE.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The flat fares make the need for bus integration less pressing at the moment - although if that ever goes it might be useful.

However rail is the primary public transport option between York and WYorks. A metro arrangement without it would be fairly pointless.

Well, it would be useful if you could use WYCA Metrocard fares to travel across West Yorks + York and the Selby area of North Yorks council.
The flat fare is good enough for point to point journeys, but if you were travelling into Leeds from York and then wanted to make a short hop to somewhere else in Leeds suburbia, the current system disincentivises you from using the bus.

I would like trains to form part of it too, but sadly I think other posters are right - Northern/DfT/GBR will never give up that cash cow with cross-boundary fares.

 

[zwk500]

I think the premise is more that people from places like Castleford, Pontefract, Garforth, etc etc like to visit York!

There is a lot of travel between York & Leeds for various reasons. Demand is almost certainly stifled by the high fares (and previously lack of capacity, but that is much less an issue now, with 2 Northern trains each hour and most TPEs being 5/6 car).

As I mentioned - York being part of the fare zones for WY makes a lot of sense. There's certainly suppressed demand. But York is also it's own city and being fully integrated into the WY agglomeration's transport probably isn't beneficial to either urban area. A 'York to WY Metro Zones X' ticket would be very popular, I think.

Compare the WY sprawl to the big green space of the Vale of York:


This map also incidentally shows Tadcaster should really be on a Leeds-York rail line!

 

[yorksrob]

That was more towards my thinking. Then that those tickets would not be for CrossCountry and probably not TPE.

TPE is the main rail carrier between Leeds and York so an arrangement without it would be meaningless.

TPE is also the main rail option within the Metro area between Leeds, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, so why shouldn't the same apply to York ?

Cross Country may be a little different, however it's as much of an inter-urban stopper as it is a long distance outfit already, so I don't see it would make much difference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2025 ==

As I mentioned - York being part of the fare zones for WY makes a lot of sense. There's certainly suppressed demand. But York is also it's own city and being fully integrated into the WY agglomeration's transport probably isn't beneficial to either urban area. A 'York to WY Metro Zones X' ticket would be very popular, I think.

Compare the WY sprawl to the big green space of the Vale of York:
View attachment 180083

This map also incidentally shows Tadcaster should really be on a Leeds-York rail line!

If we're being creative about it, is there anything to stop York being fully integrated into WY Metro for everything running into West Yorks (and possibly Harrogate) whilst being centre of its own PTE for the rest of North Yorkshire ?

York would become the PTE boundary.

 

[YorksLad12]

Darton is in South Yorkshire, but WYPTE tickets are valid there for travel to/from the West Yorkshire direction.
Denby Dale, South Elmsall and Moorthorpe are in West Yorkshire, but SYPTE tickets are valid there for travel to/from the South Yorkshire direction.

Yorkie edited his post to reflect this, but it wasn't what he originally wrote.

Sadly no similar reciprocal agreement is in place between West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, hence the relatively high fares for a Marsden to Greenfield journey.

Particularly annoying when you remember that Greenfield used to be in Yorkshire.

TPE is the main rail carrier between Leeds and York so an arrangement without it would be meaningless.

TPE is also the main rail option within the Metro area between Leeds, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, so why shouldn't the same apply to York ?

Because North Yorkshire wasn't a (former) metropolitan county. West & South Yorkshire, GM, etc all kept their rail (and bus) fares lower than elsewhere. There are more fast trains per hour between Leeds and York than Leeds and Sheffield, the journey time is almost half but the cost per mile is greater.

This map also incidentally shows Tadcaster should really be on a Leeds-York rail line!

Weird that it never was, beyond a change at Church Fenton. Topic for a different thread though

 

[yorksrob]

Because North Yorkshire wasn't a (former) metropolitan county. West & South Yorkshire, GM, etc all kept their rail (and bus) fares lower than elsewhere. There are more fast trains per hour between Leeds and York than Leeds and Sheffield, the journey time is almost half but the cost per mile is greater.

Indeed, but we should be focusing on the travel patterns of today, rather than arbitrary local boundaries.

Also, it's worth remembering that before the mid-20th century reorganisation of local government, the West Riding of Yorkshire went all the way up to the boundary of York.

 

[yorkie]

Darton is in South Yorkshire, but WYPTE tickets are valid there for travel to/from the West Yorkshire direction.
Denby Dale, South Elmsall and Moorthorpe are in West Yorkshire, but SYPTE tickets are valid there for travel to/from the South Yorkshire direction.

Yes, spot on, this demonstrates the apparent suggestion that a station must be in a particular area for common ticketing to apply does not hold true.

Yorkie edited his post to reflect this, but it wasn't what he originally wrote.

It doesn't matter; I did correct the post to avoid confusion, and 61653 HTAFC elaborated further, but the point is equally valid.

 

[YorksLad12]

Indeed, but we should be focusing on the travel patterns of today, rather than arbitrary local boundaries.

Also, it's worth remembering that before the mid-20th century reorganisation of local government, the West Riding of Yorkshire went all the way up to the boundary of York.

Absolutely. And, at one point, Harrogate would have been part of Leeds District as part of local government reorganisation, but then the plan changed again. Affordable fares, especially cross-boundary, never seem to be mentioned when spending announcements are made. Ho hum.

Yes, spot on, this demonstrates the apparent suggestion that a station must be in a particular area for common ticketing to apply does not hold true.

It doesn't matter; I did correct the post to avoid confusion, and 61653 HTAFC elaborated further, but the point is equally valid.

I've a vague memory of someone saying that the tunnels between Mardsen and Greenfield, and between Walsden and Littleborough, are the reason you can't have the boundary station on the other side of the county border. South and West Yorkshire have surface borders. It might just be that SY & WY got on better that WY & GM, and someone was spinning me a yarn. Obviously, GM was in Regional Railways North West while SY & WY were in RRNE, which might have something to do with it too.

What we need is a comprehensive overhaul to make travel on the whole cheaper, which would cover cross-boundary journeys. MetroCard/MCard Zones 6 & 7 don't really cut it - we/they should go further.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Absolutely. And, at one point, Harrogate would have been part of Leeds District as part of local government reorganisation, but then the plan changed again. Affordable fares, especially cross-boundary, never seem to be mentioned when spending announcements are made. Ho hum.


I've a vague memory of someone saying that the tunnels between Mardsen and Greenfield, and between Walsden and Littleborough, are the reason you can't have the boundary station on the other side of the county border. South and West Yorkshire have surface borders. It might just be that SY & WY got on better that WY & GM, and someone was spinning me a yarn. Obviously, GM was in Regional Railways North West while SY & WY were in RRNE, which might have something to do with it too.

What we need is a comprehensive overhaul to make travel on the whole cheaper, which would cover cross-boundary journeys. MetroCard/MCard Zones 6 & 7 don't really cut it - we/they should go further.

I don't see how topography would be a factor. The distance between Marsden & Greenfield is probably a fair bit greater than between Denby Dale and Penistone, so any cross-boundary validity means a greater "exception" to the rule. That'll be a much more significant factor than the existence (or otherwise) of some hills. Though the hills and the tunnels through them are a greater psychological boundary than a line on a map that isn't even old enough to draw a pension! None of the boundary issues should be show-stoppers though, none of this is a novel problem that we don't already know how to solve.