Is there a case for extending some St Pancras to Nottingham services to Mansfield?

[Mattderby]

Hi All, is there a case for extending 1 or 2 trains per day from Nottingham to Mansfield to provide a direct service to London? Seeing as it has a population of 110,000 I am sure there will be some demand? Seeing as Harrogate or Skipton are smaller but see LNER Leeds services extended to them.

 

[Brubulus]

Hi All, is there a case for extending 1 or 2 trains per day from Nottingham to Mansfield to provide a direct service to London? Seeing as it has a population of 110,000 I am sure there will be some demand? Seeing as Harrogate or Skipton are smaller but see LNER Leeds services extended to them.

1tpd extensions aren't that useful, either they're badly timed and a fresh air shuttle or they take stock away from strengthening peak services. What would be much better for Mansfield would be a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service that could then restore 2tph on both the Worksop-Sheffield and Nottingham to Worksop lines, as existed pre-COVID, but more useful since Mansfield would have a direct link to Sheffield.

 

[A S Leib]

1tpd extensions aren't that useful, either they're badly timed and a fresh air shuttle or they take stock away from strengthening peak services. What would be much better for Mansfield would be a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service that could then restore 2tph on both the Worksop-Sheffield and Nottingham to Worksop lines, as existed pre-COVID, but more useful since Mansfield would have a direct link to Sheffield.

Given it looks like there's currently a half-hour wait at Worksop either way for Mansfield to Sheffield, I don't think that would need much or any retiming to be particularly useful.

 

[AlastairFraser]

1tpd extensions aren't that useful, either they're badly timed and a fresh air shuttle or they take stock away from strengthening peak services. What would be much better for Mansfield would be a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service that could then restore 2tph on both the Worksop-Sheffield and Nottingham to Worksop lines, as existed pre-COVID, but more useful since Mansfield would have a direct link to Sheffield.

Perhaps a connection at Worksop into that proposed Hull Trains Sheffield route would be wise too.

 

[Brubulus]

Perhaps a connection at Worksop into that proposed Hull Trains Sheffield route would be wise too.

That'll be pretty infrequent, not much faster than via Nottingham and unlikely to even happen in the first place given the DfT and NR opinion on open access.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That'll be pretty infrequent, not much faster than via Nottingham and unlikely to even happen in the first place given the DfT and NR opinion on open access.

It will be, but it's additional capacity which may be available at a much more reasonable price than a currently franchised operator would offer tickets at, so it may incentivise people to connect into it there (or use buses/drive in if the local rail service doesn't offer the optimum connections).

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Hi All, is there a case for extending 1 or 2 trains per day from Nottingham to Mansfield to provide a direct service to London? Seeing as it has a population of 110,000 I am sure there will be some demand? Seeing as Harrogate or Skipton are smaller but see LNER Leeds services extended to them.

The experience of the past forty years or so has shown that if a proper service is provided to well-populated areas, patronage increases substantially. As Mansfield has a large population, it seems obvious to me that a good and regular service to London should be laid on, if only as an experiment. This new service should start at Worksop which, I believe, has about 60,000 residents. I'd be particularly interested to see what would happen if this service did not call at either Nottingham or Derby but instead ran non-stop from Mansfield to East Midlands Parkway, then calling at Loughborough and Leicester.

 

[A S Leib]

How frequent and well-used was the Barnsley to St. Pancras service before it was ended?

 

[43074]

The experience of the past forty years or so has shown that if a proper service is provided to well-populated areas, patronage increases substantially. As Mansfield has a large population, it seems obvious to me that a good and regular service to London should be laid on, if only as an experiment. This new service should start at Worksop which, I believe, has about 60,000 residents. I'd be particularly interested to see what would happen if this service did not call at either Nottingham or Derby but instead ran non-stop from Mansfield to East Midlands Parkway, then calling at Loughborough and Leicester.

There's not much point starting at Worksop in fairness, it'll always be far quicker going to London via Retford than trundling down the Robin Hood Line. As for Mansfield having a London service, EMR don't have the luxury of enough Intercity units for that - even if they did have a surplus of units it would be far more worthwhile running more 10 cars on the core route.

 

[ChrisC]

I don’t think a through train to London from Mansfield will ever happen, but a town the size of Mansfield should have a more frequent service than it has had since the Covid timetable reductions. The Mon-Fri Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains should be returned to the timetable to bring back 2tph between Mansfield and Nottingham. A half hourly service perhaps operated by 2 car 170’s would then release the valuable 3 car 170’s currently on the route to be used in other services.

Better connections at Worksop for journeys to the north would also be good and that was also lost during Covid when the short lived Sheffield to Gainsborough Central trains were withdrawn.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd be particularly interested to see what would happen if this service did not call at either Nottingham or Derby but instead ran non-stop from Mansfield to East Midlands Parkway, then calling at Loughborough and Leicester.

As for Mansfield having a London service, EMR don't have the luxury of enough Intercity units for that - even if they did have a surplus of units it would be far more worthwhile running more 10 cars on the core route.

A separate Mansfield train would also need another path into London, unless it knocks a hole into the regular interval Nottingham or Sheffield service. There's really no capacity for that south of Bedford.

There was a proposal (dubbed the Maid Marian Line) to run from Mansfield or even Edwinstowe via the freight-only line to Pye Bridge then to the proposed Toton interchange and possibly onward to Leicester or Derby. That, I assume, has died now the interchange is no longer happening.

 

[Barnsley]

How frequent and well-used was the Barnsley to St. Pancras service before it was ended?

It was 2 per day, 0806 via Derby arriving 1134, and 1404 via Nottingham arriving 1808! Both trains stopped at every stop aswell
A direct train from Barnsley will never work because it takes too long, if we want to go to London, anyone from Barnsley goes to Doncaster to get the train

 

[Harpers Tate]

I presume that Open Access operator Hull Trains considers doing a tiny handful of through services to/from Beverley (pop 30k) to be financially viable, if that's any indication.

 

[DDB]

The Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham services that made the overall services go to 2ph from 1ph are the only COVID cuts not to come back I think that must tell us something about demand.

I wonder if a better and maybe cheaper (mainly one off capital spend rather than ongoing subsidy increase) way to improve the service would be to install a bay platform at Worksop to allow better connections at the Northern end as the terminating trian would be blocking a through platform. A glance at Google earth photos suggests there is plenty of space already in railway use.

 

[A S Leib]

I presume that Open Access operator Hull Trains considers doing a tiny handful of through services to/from Beverley (pop 30k) to be financially viable, if that's any indication.

Hull to Beverley's ~16 minutes against 33 for Nottingham to Mansfield, and dealing with a London service running every two hours rather than twice per hour; presumably cutting Beverley extensions wouldn't save any units.

It looks like some of the Hull Trains services have enough turnaround time at Hull that they could be sent to Beverley (a09:58-d10:33, 14:17-15:08, 16:25-17:08), although there's a 10:00 Hull to Bridlington and 14:21 and 16:21 to Scarborough which mean doing so probably wouldn't be picking up many passengers at Hull.

 

[Brubulus]

The Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham services that made the overall services go to 2ph from 1ph are the only COVID cuts not to come back I think that must tell us something about demand.

I wonder if a better and maybe cheaper (mainly one off capital spend rather than ongoing subsidy increase) way to improve the service would be to install a bay platform at Worksop to allow better connections at the Northern end as the terminating trian would be blocking a through platform. A glance at Google earth photos suggests there is plenty of space already in railway use.

The demand is likely there, the train is unjustifiably slow, given it has a 5 minute pathing wait near Hucknall. A BEMU with decent performance could get the Mansfield-Nottingham journey time under 30 mins, even with all stops. Alongside the lack of connections to Sheffield and London this really limits the line. A London train is possible for Mansfield, splitting from a Nottingham at East Midlands Parkway and running to Mansfield Woodhouse or Worksop. Potentially there is scope for 2 more stations, both serving around 20,000 people each at Pinxton and Selsdon and Stapleford and Sandiacre. This would likely get decent loads, given the catchment. However it would be ridiculous for 1tp2h to London to prevent 2tph Nottingham to Mansfield given the limitations caused by the single track sections.

 

[jdcg]

Hull to Beverley's ~16 minutes against 33 for Nottingham to Mansfield, and dealing with a London service running every two hours rather than twice per hour; presumably cutting Beverley extensions wouldn't save any units.

It looks like some of the Hull Trains services have enough turnaround time at Hull that they could be sent to Beverley (a09:58-d10:33, 14:17-15:08, 16:25-17:08), although there's a 10:00 Hull to Bridlington and 14:21 and 16:21 to Scarborough which mean doing so probably wouldn't be picking up many passengers at Hull.

Beverly is feasible because that's where they stable their trains I believe. At least that's what i was told when I realised I'd left my mum's birthday cake on a Hull Trains service! Needless to say, the cake was never "found" at the depot

 

[Harpers Tate]

Beverly is feasible because that's where they stable their trains I believe

Not the case: every passenger departure is formed from an empty stock working from Hull, and every arrival forms an empty to Hull. (see realtimetrains).

 

[gerryuk]

It was 2 per day, 0806 via Derby arriving 1134, and 1404 via Nottingham arriving 1808! Both trains stopped at every stop aswell
A direct train from Barnsley will never work because it takes too long, if we want to go to London, anyone from Barnsley goes to Doncaster to get the train

Most go to St Pancras from Sheffield (5,645) than via Doncaster (2,890)

 

[edwin_m]

Most go to St Pancras from Sheffield (5,645) than via Doncaster (2,890)

Is this people buying tickets from Barnsley? Those who choose to drive to a station with direct London trains might chose Doncaster for the quicker journey.

 

[stevieinselby]

Hull to Beverley's ~16 minutes against 33 for Nottingham to Mansfield, and dealing with a London service running every two hours rather than twice per hour; presumably cutting Beverley extensions wouldn't save any units.

It looks like some of the Hull Trains services have enough turnaround time at Hull that they could be sent to Beverley (a09:58-d10:33, 14:17-15:08, 16:25-17:08), although there's a 10:00 Hull to Bridlington and 14:21 and 16:21 to Scarborough which mean doing so probably wouldn't be picking up many passengers at Hull.

Most of the HT services to/from Beverley are at the start or end of the day's service – the only exception is the 1548 ex Kings Cross, which arrives into Beverley at 1843, then runs light back to Hull to form the 1910 to Kings Cross – so no, it doesn't increase the number of units needed.

Extending the daytime services to Beverley would add in complications with fitting around the Northern services – and would also take a lot of slack out of the timetable, which is needed for crew breaks, recovery time, cleaning and restocking, etc. The likely patronage to/from Beverley outside those peak services is small and is easily catered for with the half-hourly Northern service, and this allows the main service to be run reliably.

It's hard to see how you could use the same model could be applied to the Robin Hood line. The only trains to London that start their passenger diagram at Nottingham are the 0549, 0611 and 0649 – would there really be the demand to run an extra train from Worksop even to form the 0649 (so departing well before 0600)?