Is there a case for extending some St Pancras to Nottingham services to Mansfield?

[Mattderby]

Hi All, is there a case for extending 1 or 2 trains per day from Nottingham to Mansfield to provide a direct service to London? Seeing as it has a population of 110,000 I am sure there will be some demand? Seeing as Harrogate or Skipton are smaller but see LNER Leeds services extended to them.

 

[Brubulus]

Hi All, is there a case for extending 1 or 2 trains per day from Nottingham to Mansfield to provide a direct service to London? Seeing as it has a population of 110,000 I am sure there will be some demand? Seeing as Harrogate or Skipton are smaller but see LNER Leeds services extended to them.

1tpd extensions aren't that useful, either they're badly timed and a fresh air shuttle or they take stock away from strengthening peak services. What would be much better for Mansfield would be a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service that could then restore 2tph on both the Worksop-Sheffield and Nottingham to Worksop lines, as existed pre-COVID, but more useful since Mansfield would have a direct link to Sheffield.

 

[A S Leib]

1tpd extensions aren't that useful, either they're badly timed and a fresh air shuttle or they take stock away from strengthening peak services. What would be much better for Mansfield would be a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service that could then restore 2tph on both the Worksop-Sheffield and Nottingham to Worksop lines, as existed pre-COVID, but more useful since Mansfield would have a direct link to Sheffield.

Given it looks like there's currently a half-hour wait at Worksop either way for Mansfield to Sheffield, I don't think that would need much or any retiming to be particularly useful.

 

[AlastairFraser]

1tpd extensions aren't that useful, either they're badly timed and a fresh air shuttle or they take stock away from strengthening peak services. What would be much better for Mansfield would be a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service that could then restore 2tph on both the Worksop-Sheffield and Nottingham to Worksop lines, as existed pre-COVID, but more useful since Mansfield would have a direct link to Sheffield.

Perhaps a connection at Worksop into that proposed Hull Trains Sheffield route would be wise too.

 

[Brubulus]

Perhaps a connection at Worksop into that proposed Hull Trains Sheffield route would be wise too.

That'll be pretty infrequent, not much faster than via Nottingham and unlikely to even happen in the first place given the DfT and NR opinion on open access.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That'll be pretty infrequent, not much faster than via Nottingham and unlikely to even happen in the first place given the DfT and NR opinion on open access.

It will be, but it's additional capacity which may be available at a much more reasonable price than a currently franchised operator would offer tickets at, so it may incentivise people to connect into it there (or use buses/drive in if the local rail service doesn't offer the optimum connections).

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Hi All, is there a case for extending 1 or 2 trains per day from Nottingham to Mansfield to provide a direct service to London? Seeing as it has a population of 110,000 I am sure there will be some demand? Seeing as Harrogate or Skipton are smaller but see LNER Leeds services extended to them.

The experience of the past forty years or so has shown that if a proper service is provided to well-populated areas, patronage increases substantially. As Mansfield has a large population, it seems obvious to me that a good and regular service to London should be laid on, if only as an experiment. This new service should start at Worksop which, I believe, has about 60,000 residents. I'd be particularly interested to see what would happen if this service did not call at either Nottingham or Derby but instead ran non-stop from Mansfield to East Midlands Parkway, then calling at Loughborough and Leicester.

 

[A S Leib]

How frequent and well-used was the Barnsley to St. Pancras service before it was ended?

 

[43074]

The experience of the past forty years or so has shown that if a proper service is provided to well-populated areas, patronage increases substantially. As Mansfield has a large population, it seems obvious to me that a good and regular service to London should be laid on, if only as an experiment. This new service should start at Worksop which, I believe, has about 60,000 residents. I'd be particularly interested to see what would happen if this service did not call at either Nottingham or Derby but instead ran non-stop from Mansfield to East Midlands Parkway, then calling at Loughborough and Leicester.

There's not much point starting at Worksop in fairness, it'll always be far quicker going to London via Retford than trundling down the Robin Hood Line. As for Mansfield having a London service, EMR don't have the luxury of enough Intercity units for that - even if they did have a surplus of units it would be far more worthwhile running more 10 cars on the core route.

 

[ChrisC]

I don’t think a through train to London from Mansfield will ever happen, but a town the size of Mansfield should have a more frequent service than it has had since the Covid timetable reductions. The Mon-Fri Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains should be returned to the timetable to bring back 2tph between Mansfield and Nottingham. A half hourly service perhaps operated by 2 car 170’s would then release the valuable 3 car 170’s currently on the route to be used in other services.

Better connections at Worksop for journeys to the north would also be good and that was also lost during Covid when the short lived Sheffield to Gainsborough Central trains were withdrawn.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd be particularly interested to see what would happen if this service did not call at either Nottingham or Derby but instead ran non-stop from Mansfield to East Midlands Parkway, then calling at Loughborough and Leicester.

As for Mansfield having a London service, EMR don't have the luxury of enough Intercity units for that - even if they did have a surplus of units it would be far more worthwhile running more 10 cars on the core route.

A separate Mansfield train would also need another path into London, unless it knocks a hole into the regular interval Nottingham or Sheffield service. There's really no capacity for that south of Bedford.

There was a proposal (dubbed the Maid Marian Line) to run from Mansfield or even Edwinstowe via the freight-only line to Pye Bridge then to the proposed Toton interchange and possibly onward to Leicester or Derby. That, I assume, has died now the interchange is no longer happening.

 

[Barnsley]

How frequent and well-used was the Barnsley to St. Pancras service before it was ended?

It was 2 per day, 0806 via Derby arriving 1134, and 1404 via Nottingham arriving 1808! Both trains stopped at every stop aswell
A direct train from Barnsley will never work because it takes too long, if we want to go to London, anyone from Barnsley goes to Doncaster to get the train

 

[Harpers Tate]

I presume that Open Access operator Hull Trains considers doing a tiny handful of through services to/from Beverley (pop 30k) to be financially viable, if that's any indication.

 

[DDB]

The Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham services that made the overall services go to 2ph from 1ph are the only COVID cuts not to come back I think that must tell us something about demand.

I wonder if a better and maybe cheaper (mainly one off capital spend rather than ongoing subsidy increase) way to improve the service would be to install a bay platform at Worksop to allow better connections at the Northern end as the terminating trian would be blocking a through platform. A glance at Google earth photos suggests there is plenty of space already in railway use.

 

[A S Leib]

I presume that Open Access operator Hull Trains considers doing a tiny handful of through services to/from Beverley (pop 30k) to be financially viable, if that's any indication.

Hull to Beverley's ~16 minutes against 33 for Nottingham to Mansfield, and dealing with a London service running every two hours rather than twice per hour; presumably cutting Beverley extensions wouldn't save any units.

It looks like some of the Hull Trains services have enough turnaround time at Hull that they could be sent to Beverley (a09:58-d10:33, 14:17-15:08, 16:25-17:08), although there's a 10:00 Hull to Bridlington and 14:21 and 16:21 to Scarborough which mean doing so probably wouldn't be picking up many passengers at Hull.

 

[Brubulus]

The Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham services that made the overall services go to 2ph from 1ph are the only COVID cuts not to come back I think that must tell us something about demand.

I wonder if a better and maybe cheaper (mainly one off capital spend rather than ongoing subsidy increase) way to improve the service would be to install a bay platform at Worksop to allow better connections at the Northern end as the terminating trian would be blocking a through platform. A glance at Google earth photos suggests there is plenty of space already in railway use.

The demand is likely there, the train is unjustifiably slow, given it has a 5 minute pathing wait near Hucknall. A BEMU with decent performance could get the Mansfield-Nottingham journey time under 30 mins, even with all stops. Alongside the lack of connections to Sheffield and London this really limits the line. A London train is possible for Mansfield, splitting from a Nottingham at East Midlands Parkway and running to Mansfield Woodhouse or Worksop. Potentially there is scope for 2 more stations, both serving around 20,000 people each at Pinxton and Selsdon and Stapleford and Sandiacre. This would likely get decent loads, given the catchment. However it would be ridiculous for 1tp2h to London to prevent 2tph Nottingham to Mansfield given the limitations caused by the single track sections.

 

[jdcg]

Hull to Beverley's ~16 minutes against 33 for Nottingham to Mansfield, and dealing with a London service running every two hours rather than twice per hour; presumably cutting Beverley extensions wouldn't save any units.

It looks like some of the Hull Trains services have enough turnaround time at Hull that they could be sent to Beverley (a09:58-d10:33, 14:17-15:08, 16:25-17:08), although there's a 10:00 Hull to Bridlington and 14:21 and 16:21 to Scarborough which mean doing so probably wouldn't be picking up many passengers at Hull.

Beverly is feasible because that's where they stable their trains I believe. At least that's what i was told when I realised I'd left my mum's birthday cake on a Hull Trains service! Needless to say, the cake was never "found" at the depot

 

[Harpers Tate]

Beverly is feasible because that's where they stable their trains I believe

Not the case: every passenger departure is formed from an empty stock working from Hull, and every arrival forms an empty to Hull. (see realtimetrains).

 

[gerryuk]

It was 2 per day, 0806 via Derby arriving 1134, and 1404 via Nottingham arriving 1808! Both trains stopped at every stop aswell
A direct train from Barnsley will never work because it takes too long, if we want to go to London, anyone from Barnsley goes to Doncaster to get the train

Most go to St Pancras from Sheffield (5,645) than via Doncaster (2,890)

 

[edwin_m]

Most go to St Pancras from Sheffield (5,645) than via Doncaster (2,890)

Is this people buying tickets from Barnsley? Those who choose to drive to a station with direct London trains might chose Doncaster for the quicker journey.

 

[stevieinselby]

Hull to Beverley's ~16 minutes against 33 for Nottingham to Mansfield, and dealing with a London service running every two hours rather than twice per hour; presumably cutting Beverley extensions wouldn't save any units.

It looks like some of the Hull Trains services have enough turnaround time at Hull that they could be sent to Beverley (a09:58-d10:33, 14:17-15:08, 16:25-17:08), although there's a 10:00 Hull to Bridlington and 14:21 and 16:21 to Scarborough which mean doing so probably wouldn't be picking up many passengers at Hull.

Most of the HT services to/from Beverley are at the start or end of the day's service – the only exception is the 1548 ex Kings Cross, which arrives into Beverley at 1843, then runs light back to Hull to form the 1910 to Kings Cross – so no, it doesn't increase the number of units needed.

Extending the daytime services to Beverley would add in complications with fitting around the Northern services – and would also take a lot of slack out of the timetable, which is needed for crew breaks, recovery time, cleaning and restocking, etc. The likely patronage to/from Beverley outside those peak services is small and is easily catered for with the half-hourly Northern service, and this allows the main service to be run reliably.

It's hard to see how you could use the same model could be applied to the Robin Hood line. The only trains to London that start their passenger diagram at Nottingham are the 0549, 0611 and 0649 – would there really be the demand to run an extra train from Worksop even to form the 0649 (so departing well before 0600)?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I presume that Open Access operator Hull Trains considers doing a tiny handful of through services to/from Beverley (pop 30k) to be financially viable, if that's any indication.

It indicates that Mansfield (100,000 pop) plus Worksop (60,000 pop) have more potential than Beverley.

 

[paddy1]

Based on existing London flows to/from Mansfield (and Worksop), I would say a definite NO for a direct London service:-

LONDON FLOWS (total both ways) 2023/24

Mansfield 14.620
Mansfield Woodhouse 3,404
Worksop 7,544

Compare these with 2023/24 London flows via nearest mainline railhead alternatives for both towns

Nottingham 914,466
Newark Northgate 538,592
Chesterfield 219.478
Retford 222,644

It would appear (to me) that a disproportionate number of London passengers in both towns are already using railheads that offer a frequent and direct service, and that no rail operator would want to introduce a direct London service based on those figures.

Even more remarkable when you consider the populations of Mansfield compared to Newark (100k v 30k) and Worksop compared to Retford (60k compared to 20k). The same would apply comparing Nottingham v Newark figures. As many have already made the point numerous times on this site, it is not all about population.

Also, just how much would those Mansfield (and Worksop) flows have to increase by, and to what frequency, to justify direct services to London?

 

[A S Leib]

Could the Nottingham – Worksop and Nottingham – Skegness services be combined, so one-change options at Grantham would be possible as well as Nottingham? Right now the timings look spectacularly inconvenient for that towards London, with Skegness services normally leaving Nottingham at ~××:45 and Worksop arrivals at ~××:51, but with Skegness arrivals at ~××:20 and Worksop departures at ~××:25.

 

[ChrisC]

Could the Nottingham – Worksop and Nottingham – Skegness services be combined, so one-change options at Grantham would be possible as well as Nottingham? Right now the timings look spectacularly inconvenient for that towards London, with Skegness services normally leaving Nottingham at ~××:45 and Worksop arrivals at ~××:51, but with Skegness arrivals at ~××:20 and Worksop departures at ~××:25.

Connections in Nottingham have been terrible for passengers travelling from Mansfield since the Robin Hood Line service was cut to hourly.
As you point out the RHL train arrives in Nottingham at xx51 just after the train to Grantham and Skegness has departed at xx45, but that’s the least of the problems. In addition the train to Norwich departs at xx39, Liverpool at xx45, Lincoln/Grimsby at xx34, Matlock xx54, the fast train to London at xx50, Birmingham xx41. Admittedly there is a train to Birmingham at xx07 but that misses the connection at Derby to Bristol and the SW. Travelling to London isn’t too bad as the slower London train departs at xx12. It’s just as bad in the other direction where the RHL train departs at xx25 just before all the connections arrive again resulting in almost an hour wait in Nottingham.

From when the RHL reopened from Mansfield in 1995 I used it regularly to connect in Nottingham to destinations further afield until the frequency was cut. I very rarely use it now, as especially at the end of a return journey I don’t want to be sitting around in Nottingham for almost an hour. These days I drive or use the bus to reach stations at Alfreton or Chesterfield. Even getting to Nottingham is easier by the frequent bus as a train that is only hourly is not so convenient.

 

[Failed Unit]

To me - why not - divert the existing Lincoln train to Mansfield (unless there is really a lot of people using it from Kettering - Lincoln for example). The 222s doing London - Lincoln were really set up to give more seats in the peak using a unit that would be in a shed otherwise.

 

[Barnsley]

Is this people buying tickets from Barnsley? Those who choose to drive to a station with direct London trains might chose Doncaster for the quicker journey.

Correct! We just drive to Doncaster as its a lot quicker

 

[gerryuk]

Based on existing London flows to/from Mansfield (and Worksop), I would say a definite NO for a direct London service:-

LONDON FLOWS (total both ways) 2023/24

Mansfield 14.620
Mansfield Woodhouse 3,404
Worksop 7,544

Compare these with 2023/24 London flows via nearest mainline railhead alternatives for both towns

Nottingham 914,466
Newark Northgate 538,592
Chesterfield 219.478
Retford 222,644

It would appear (to me) that a disproportionate number of London passengers in both towns are already using railheads that offer a frequent and direct service, and that no rail operator would want to introduce a direct London service based on those figures.

Even more remarkable when you consider the populations of Mansfield compared to Newark (100k v 30k) and Worksop compared to Retford (60k compared to 20k). The same would apply comparing Nottingham v Newark figures. As many have already made the point numerous times on this site, it is not all about population.

Also, just how much would those Mansfield (and Worksop) flows have to increase by, and to what frequency, to justify direct services to London

Those figures for Newark Northgate cant possibly be right, that's more than the pax from Sheffield to London. Just checked and you seem to have doubled the pax numbers for all the other stations on your list. Am i missing something here?

 

[Zomboid]

Those figures for Newark Northgate cant possibly be right, that's more than the pax from Sheffield to London. Just checked and you seem to have doubled the pax numbers for all the other stations on your list. Am i missing something here?

It says both ways, so London - X is added to X - London.
Though how the numbers are generated I don't know.

 

[edwin_m]

It would appear (to me) that a disproportionate number of London passengers in both towns are already using railheads that offer a frequent and direct service, and that no rail operator would want to introduce a direct London service based on those figures.

Even more remarkable when you consider the populations of Mansfield compared to Newark (100k v 30k) and Worksop compared to Retford (60k compared to 20k). The same would apply comparing Nottingham v Newark figures. As many have already made the point numerous times on this site, it is not all about population.

Also, just how much would those Mansfield (and Worksop) flows have to increase by, and to what frequency, to justify direct services to London?

This mixes up cause and effect to some extent. Just as mentioned by @Barnsley regarding Barnsley, these are presumably ticket sales and Mansfield or Worksop residents wanting travel to London are more likely to drive (or possibly take a bus) to a station with a direct London service.

Having said that, there may well also be a "propensity to travel" effect. Historically Mansfield was a local employment centre rather than an origin for commuters, not least because it had no passenger service for several decades. So people who needed to travel to London would most likely choose to live somewhere with a better train service. The Robin Hood line has partly compensated for the loss of local employment by connecting residents to jobs in Nottingham, but the historic effect is likely to persist.

On the issue of connections at Nottingham, the Robin Hood Line is pretty much self-contained apart from interactions at Nottingham and to a limited extent at Worksop. The single line sections mean it's probably difficult to shift the timing of Up trains relative to Down, but in the absence of a half-hourly service would it be possible to push the entire timetable round the clock to give better connections?