SeatFrog ticket swap now resulted in being investigated - needing advice!

[Ronnie19]

Hi,
I’ve been reading a lot of past posts and wondered if anyone has got themselves in the predicament I have or could shed any advise where I now may stand or face from LNER. I’ve travelled with LNER regularly (2/3 times per week) from Newark to London the last 2 and an half years and only recently have I found the Seatfrog ticket swap app (last few months).

On this particular day I changed my 19:30 ticket to 17:18 and have done this previously via the app. Today I was stopped by a revenue office and of course as I’ve done previously happy to show my tickets to be told that I can’t use my original ticket with the swap on Seatfrog which I did say that I have done this previously before and checked tickets with the train manager and inspectors and never had an issue only that the swap was a ‘good deal’ given you pay £10 to move it earlier.

She proceeded to advise it was only advance tickets that could do the swap and mine was a super off peak in which I asked why was it accepted before and that I’ve never hid my original ticket but I’d be happy to of course pay the fare today given that if I can’t use it. She then proceeded to say it’s concerning I’ve done this before and went to report me walking off on the phone saying this is going to be an interesting one.

Now I regularly buy tickets advance and super off peak and have never had issues before, when she came back she seemed more annoyed and even the train manager came over and looked at the tickets and he said he saw nothing wrong and I could do that so she had to physically point it out to him and seemed frustrated he didn’t even know she then started making me go in the website to show her how I’d got it and that it was only advance tickets.

Going through this process I understood my mistake and merely pointed out I wasn’t to know better if I’d previously been told by LNER staff that it was okay and when they’d scanned my tickets no problems arose especially given the amount I purchase and I get both advance and SOP tickets. With that I again said I’d pay but she said it will still be investigated but also got me to pay a further £55 on top of the original £148.70 plus £10 seat frog train swap plus £23 first class upgrade.

I understand completely where she was coming from but again if LNER staff have checked my tickets before and in their system, I wouldn’t have known any better and felt like a complete criminal while hugely being embarrassed on the train.

I’m now completely distraught I may get taken to court for this and get a record but I was honest and upfront with her and genuinely wasn’t trying to cheat the system especially when I’m always really cautious with tickets it was clearly a misunderstanding but she argued with me saying that it clearly wasn’t if I’ve done this before but again I’ve shown my tickets and been upfront with my original and the Seatfrog offer.

What is the likelihood of this being taken to court or is it possible to get a settlement offered? I’ve not seen anything online about Seatfrog being involved and I don’t feel I was evading fare given I paid the excess as requested and was open and honest.

Should I contact LNER or is it best to seek legal advice now?

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[John R]

Can you clarify as to what date this was and which direction were you travelling.

The first class upgrade thing is a bit confusing too. Which service did this apply to?

 

[Ronnie19]

Apologies, I was returning home from King’s Cross to Newark north gate and the date was today.

I purchased a first class upgrade through Seatfrog also on the app which wasn’t an issue for her it was the train swap I did.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

"Seatfrog Ticket Swap" can only be used for same day Advance Single Tickets, I believe? Which a Super Off Peak Single isn't.

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s not clear what you paid the staff on board for. Was it an excess fare? Did you keep the tickets you were given after making those payments?

If so might be helpful if you can upload copies of them for people to see and understand.

My hunch is if they were reporting you for prosecution they would have taken your details not sold you additional tickets/ excess fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

They can’t report for prosecution in a case where an excess fare is the only remedy available under the customer contract.

 

[Ronnie19]

"Seatfrog Ticket Swap" can only be used for same day Advance Single Tickets, I believe? Which a Super Off Peak Single isn't.

Yes she showed me that and I understand it was my error as it should if been an advance single I used but like I said I’d previously had the same ticket SOP and the ticket inspectors/train manager was fine but I didn’t know at the time it was limited to advance only

It’s not clear what you paid the staff on board for. Was it an excess fare? Did you keep the tickets you were given after making those payments?

If so might be helpful if you can upload copies of them for people to see and understand.

My hunch is if they were reporting you for prosecution they would have taken your details not sold you additional tickets/ excess fares.

The ticket was for excess fare she kept saying you have to pay which I completely agreed to and apologised for.

She took photos of all my tickets which I assume is linked to my lner app which has all my details.

Would they still do excess there and then and still report me?

 

[WesternLancer]

Would they still do excess there and then and still report me?

I don’t know.

But that does not mean it would end up in court prosecution so I suspect you don’t need to engage a solicitor at this stage.

You will get good advice here on how to deal with this.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an interesting case.

Officially only Advance tickets can be changed via the Seatfrog app. The Super Off Peak Single ticket that you purchase between Kings Cross and Newark is not valid on trains timed to depart Kings Cross between 14:59 and 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays).

Section 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel deals with travelling with a Super Off Peak ticket at an invalid time:

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

The Revenue Inspector sold you an excess fare so this deals with the matter in respect of the incident where you were caught. No further action can be taken in respect of this incident.

What we don't know is what LNER will do with the other occasions where you used a Seatfrog change of train rather than buying an excess. Importantly, LNER should not prosecute you as the only remedy under the NRCoT is to charge you an excess.

LNER would need to be sure that you travelled on an invalid train. They can check your ticket purchasing history, I don't know if they can (or would) access your Seatfrog account to show which journeys you changed your train. If your ticket was scanned during an onboard ticket check then this would show exactly which train you travelled on an LNER could then work out whether or not an excess fare is due.

Personally speaking, given the confusion you've described I really don't think LNER should be taking any further action against you. Instead, they need to get together with Seatfrog and look at how they make it crystal clear to people using the Seatfrog all that you can only change the time of an Advance ticket.

If you do get any further contact about this from LNER then do not reply to it until you have posted a redacted copy of it in this thread and canvassed the views of experienced forum members.

 

[Ronnie19]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an interesting case.

Officially only Advance tickets can be changed via the Seatfrog app. The Super Off Peak Single ticket that you purchase between Kings Cross and Newark is not valid on trains timed to depart Kings Cross between 14:59 and 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays).

Section 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel deals with travelling with a Super Off Peak ticket at an invalid time:

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

The Revenue Inspector sold you an excess fare so this deals with the matter in respect of the incident where you were caught. No further action can be taken in respect of this incident.

What we don't know is what LNER will do with the other occasions where you used a Seatfrog change of train rather than buying an excess. Importantly, LNER cannot prosecute you as the only remedy under the NRCoT is to charge you an excess.

LNER would need to be sure that you travelled on an invalid train. They can check your ticket purchasing history, I don't know if they can (or would) access your Seatfrog account to show which journeys you changed your train. If your ticket was scanned during an onboard ticket check then this would show exactly which train you travelled on an LNER could then work out whether or not an excess fare is due.

Personally speaking, given the confusion you've described I really don't think LNER should be taking any further action against you. Instead, they need to get together with Seatfrog and look at how they make it crystal clear to people using the Seatfrog all that you can only change the time of an Advance ticket.

If you do get any further contact about this from LNER then do not reply to it until you have posted a redacted copy of it in this thread and canvassed the views of experienced forum members.

Thank you so so much for your time and advice this has helped so much and I’ve definitely learnt to fully ensure I have the right ticket if I’m to use that app again.

I’ll wait to see if I hear anything further then will definitely put on here - thanks to all that commented!

 

[furlong]

You need to analyse closely the SeatFrog process you went through to determine whether the condition that your original ticket must be an Advance was sufficiently clear. The test is how it would appear to an ordinary person similar to you. The fact you missed the key term means you might have an argument that it was insufficiently clear but equally you might decide the term was clear and it was your own fault for missing it. Or you might consider the responsibility should be shared in some proportion. If they were aware that some people found it insufficiently clear yet are still selling the upgrades anyway then that might be considered misselling (and in extreme cases they could be prosecuted).

If you think this essential contractual term was not clear, then you have choices of arguments (unenforceable term - breach of contract - misselling etc.) to make to LNER and/or SeatFrog to attempt to get back the money you paid for the Excess or the original swap.

The fundamental point to address is: Why should anyone holding a Super Off-Peak EVER be sold a Train Swap? Were insufficient checks made as to the suitability or was inadequate information provided PRIOR to sale?

If you think the selling process needs to change to make it clearer, you could write to SeatFrog seeking changes together with an apology and compensation for the embarrassment. If you think it so bad it might constitute misselling, copy that to the ORR (responsible for enforcement).

You might want to read up on these areas of consumer and contract law, alongside the various contractual agreements (NRCoT, TSA etc.) so that if LNER does foolishly attempt to claim further retrospective excesses from you, you have a counter-argument ready to attempt to dissuade them. You might decide to do nothing unless LNER contacts you.

 

[Pushpit]

I am an occasional Seatfrog user, more for the upgrades than Train Swap. I'm also going to somewhere (ahem) in the North East on Super Off Peaks, and the big downside if based 3 hours up from KGX is the afternoon time restrictions. I would say it's pretty obvious that you can't just pay a tenner to get around that, these tickets are pretty well known for their restrictions and the various retail apps strip out the afternoon peak for Super Off Peaks in pretty obvious ways. Super Off Peaks are distinguished from Advance not so much by pricing but by off peak flexibility, it's the nature of the beast, so it would be more than odd to use a third party platform to do something which the Original Poster knows to be beyond the ticket's inherent capabilities.

Moreover I'm not sure how one could miss the fact it is Advance tickets only, particularly in First. You have to explicitly choose your ticket type on the main screen, it's not buried in some T&Cs somewhere. However for those who have not used it, Seatfrog does not validate tickets, it's just a supplementary payment and a screen does come up towards and after payment mentioning the importance of hold tickets valid for the operation concerned.

I also agree that I suspect LNER at worst will want refunds of previous Train Swaps where used on non Advance tickets: the usual advice here is to not incriminate yourself (further). But I think it's unlikely since LNER would have to spend quite some time forensically matching up Seatfrog transactions with ticketing, linked fairly weakly in IT terms. Possible, but I don't think it will happen.

 

[island]

You need to analyse closely the SeatFrog process you went through to determine whether the condition that your original ticket must be an Advance was sufficiently clear.

It's clearly stated on the app before you can even search for a train to swap from/to that "This feature is only for Advance tickets". Whilst there are a number of issues with SeatFrog, this isn't one of them.

They can’t report for prosecution in a case where an excess fare is the only remedy available under the customer contract.

Indeed, and as we saw subsequently to your post, the passenger was quite properly sold an excess fare, which resolves the matter, as far as that individual trip is concerned at any rate.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

*If* LNER were to further investigate the OP's ticket purchasing history, on what basis, if any, could they legitimately ask for more ££ if they now consider that the OP has likely previously misused / used Seatfrog in the manner described and travelled on services on which a Super Off Peak Single would not have ever been valid?

 

[Pushpit]

*If* LNER were to further investigate the OP's ticket purchasing history, on what basis, if any, could they legitimately ask for more ££ if they now consider that the OP has likely previously misused / used Seatfrog in the manner described and travelled on services on which a Super Off Peak Single would not have ever been valid?

Civil recovery of unpaid fares would be open to LNER.

 

[AlterEgo]

*If* LNER were to further investigate the OP's ticket purchasing history, on what basis, if any, could they legitimately ask for more ££ if they now consider that the OP has likely previously misused / used Seatfrog in the manner described and travelled on services on which a Super Off Peak Single would not have ever been valid?

How would LNER know the passenger hadn’t been sold an excess fare before? There’s no record of these and they can be obtained anywhere, from any train company’s offices or staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would LNER know the passenger hadn’t been sold an excess fare before? There’s no record of these and they can be obtained anywhere, from any train company’s offices or staff.

Even though proving it may be rather difficult (who keeps old tickets?) it wouldn't be surprising if they asked for evidence of such. TOCs have made similar demands before.

 

[eastwestdivide]

It's clearly stated on the app before you can even search for a train to swap from/to that "This feature is only for Advance tickets".

It doesn't say that for me! I got this sequence just now (screenshots from home screen to "something went wrong" = failed to find a train):

 

[DeverseSam]

With that I again said I’d pay but she said it will still be investigated but also got me to pay a further £55 on top of the original £148.70 plus £10 seat frog train swap plus £23 first class upgrade.

An Anytime Single is only £171.50 so I can’t see how this is fair

 

[ainsworth74]

It doesn't say that for me! I got this sequence just now (screenshots from home screen to "something went wrong" = failed to find a train):
View attachment 180518

View attachment 180519
View attachment 180520


View attachment 180521

View attachment 180522

Interesting! I got slightly different information on that second "Find your existing train" screen:




Which does say on it "Note this feature is only for Advance Tickets, not upgrades." though isn't exactly prominent either what with it being in small text and dark grey on a light grey background.

Seatfrog really a somewhat dubious outfit particularly as they can present the same booking process in three different ways!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would actually say that's not clear enough. A lot of people think "Advance tickets" means any ticket purchased in advance. If it was clear it would say "Advance Single tickets, not Anytime*, Off Peak, Super Off Peak nor any other ticket type".

* I know this would be pointless, but it's best to avoid taking money on false pretences from confused people.

 

[DeverseSam]

The way to do this is buy an Advance for the 1930 on CrossCountry app.

If SeatSwap on the day offers the £10 deal for the 1718, take it
If not, use CrossCountry to change the ticket to another time (no fee for amendment)

 

[eastwestdivide]

Interesting! I got slightly different information on that second "Find your existing train" screen

It's possible that I might not have the current version of the app. But that might help the OP.

 

[Hadders]

How would LNER know the passenger hadn’t been sold an excess fare before? There’s no record of these and they can be obtained anywhere, from any train company’s offices or staff.

Even though proving it may be rather difficult (who keeps old tickets?) it wouldn't be surprising if they asked for evidence of such. TOCs have made similar demands before.

Doesn't the Excess Fare supposed to say valid with ticket XXXXX, so in theory there's a way it can be traced. It does assume that the person selling the excess has entered the ticket number correctly....

 

[AlterEgo]

Doesn't the Excess Fare supposed to say valid with ticket XXXXX, so in theory there's a way it can be traced. It does assume that the person selling the excess has entered the ticket number correctly....

Paper ticket numbers aren’t unique and I don’t believe long eticket numbers can be entered onto them, unless I’m mistaken?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Paper ticket numbers aren’t unique and I don’t believe long eticket numbers can be entered onto them, unless I’m mistaken?

Depends on the Ticket Issuing System being used. Worldline @station (and presumably Envoy, given they're basically the same) has the option of entering the UTN or scanning the barcode when Excessing an e-ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's clearly stated on the app before you can even search for a train to swap from/to that "This feature is only for Advance tickets". Whilst there are a number of issues with SeatFrog, this isn't one of them.

Are we back to the problem where some customers (many?) think an 'Advance' ticket is any ticket you have bought in advance.

I certainly spend time explaining this to various friends of mine who are not interested in the finer points of train fares

typical conversation

Me - 'is that an Advance ticket'
Friend 'yes I bought it last week'
Me - can I look at it
Me - it's actually an 'Off Peak ticket'
Friend - yes, but I bought it last week
etc etc

I'm sure we've all been there....

I would actually say that's not clear enough. A lot of people think "Advance tickets" means any ticket purchased in advance. If it was clear it would say "Advance Single tickets, not Anytime*, Off Peak, Super Off Peak nor any other ticket type".

* I know this would be pointless, but it's best to avoid taking money on false pretences from confused people.

apols posted before I saw you made the same point for me

 

[NorthernSystem]

Paper ticket numbers aren’t unique and I don’t believe long eticket numbers can be entered onto them, unless I’m mistaken?

When excessing from E-Ticket (at least on STAR) it auto-fills the last 5 characters of the UTN if done correctly. They can still be manually inputted though.

 

[jumble]

Civil recovery of unpaid fares would be open to LNER.

I would expect that LNER would consider it a waste of time trying to prove the OP actually travelled in first class

 

[AlterEgo]

I would expect that LNER would consider it a waste of time trying to prove the OP actually travelled in first class

That's not what is under consideration here, but rather using the train swap feature to circumvent the (super) off peak.