Train delayed to enable customer connections

[MatthewHutton]

I suppose it all depends on the frequency of the following train! Totally understandable to hold trains on the Furness & Cumbria lines which would wait at Barrow, as happened to me a couple of years ago!

Oh of course.

 

[Sealink]

I was in Doncaster this afternoon & an announcement came that the 4:21pm to Sheffield from Scarborough run by Northern was delayed due to the train departing late to enable customer connections.

This is one I haven’t heard of before, has anyone else?

I've seen this on LNER and ScotRail

 

[43066]

Holding trains for connections is good and should happen more.

It isn’t necessarily good if you’re on the train being held.

 

[GoneSouth]

Happened to me at Taunton last Saturday, the 13:18 GWR to Cardiff was held for 14 minutes, waiting for a delayed XC from Plymouth, which we were told had passengers on who needed to connect for destinations that weren’t going to be served by other trains without long delays

We were kept informed, and thanks to the built in dwell at Bristol arrived in Cardiff only 7 late.

I wonder if the possibility of going over the 15 minutes delay repay threshold affects these decisions.

I’m sure XC would have returned the favour, being famous for their customer focused approach

 

[800001]

I was on the 1602 LNER York to Kings X on Friday. Guard announced over the tannoy that we would be waiting for the non-stop service to arrive to allow passengers to move to the dropping service to connect to various stations. Bit of a pain when you look at the timetable and notice that from Edinburgh there are two trains either side of the non-stop service that call at the stations the stopper called at ‍♂️

The 2 trains either side do not call at Retford, Grantham or Stevenage, where as the XX:02 does.

 

[DJ_K666]

I was mulling this over last night as I saw GWR were holding a Portsmouth Harbour at Westbury for the same reason.

I've been repeatedly frustrated at TfW for not holding a Cheltenham Spa service for a single minute at Severn Tunnel Junction to avoid a 59 minute delay for everyone changing. However, even a few minutes of delay to one service can lead to other changes not being made elsewhere.

So all in all, I'd rather everything just ran on time. Not too much to ask right

I'd say 'On Time with Sensible Connections' probably covers it. It's like me trying to get to Leicester from Rugby, you miss the Leicester train at Nuneaton by around 2 minutes and gave to wait nearly an hour, resulting in a journey time of almost 90 minutes to do just 15 or so miles. You actually have to rely on the second train (the XC one) being late to make a decent journey time.
All because they thoughtfully cut both the direct connections* between here and Leicester and have made it extremely difficult to restore them. Thanks for that, Midland Region.

*Midland Counties and Great Central lines

 

[sh24]

I’m sure XC would have returned the favour, being famous for their customer focused approach

Quite. In one of the regular bouts of disruption on the GWML I ended up taking SWT to Exeter and hoped to make a -1 connection onwards to Plymouth. Inevitably....the Voyager was just pulling out as the 159 rolled in. GWR were great at organising a taxi but this is the kind of non-network thinking that I hope GBR sort rather than floofing around with new brands and liveries.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Quite. In one of the regular bouts of disruption on the GWML I ended up taking SWT to Exeter and hoped to make a -1 connection onwards to Plymouth. Inevitably....the Voyager was just pulling out as the 159 rolled in. GWR were great at organising a taxi but this is the kind of non-network thinking that I hope GBR sort rather than floofing around with new brands and liveries.

So now we're proposing delaying trains to make negative (non) 'connections'?

 

[Pinus contorta]

Oh of course.

That causes problems at St Bees north to Bransty.

 

[Krokodil]

So now we're proposing delaying trains to make negative (non) 'connections'?

Presumably to minimise the impact of a cancellation. I've had -1 connections held for a few minutes before to allow my passengers to complete their journeys with the minimum of delay when their booked service has been cancelled.

 

[BayPaul]

Our network has thousands of services in every direction. There are always going to be connections that don't quite work. No amount of joined up thinking is going to solve this. The ideal is to improve frequencies so that connections don't really matter - a 2-4tph service makes everything much simpler.

 

[Howardh]

Thre's one I use regularly from home to Yorkshire, the Borthern xx25 from Southport to Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria. The connecting train (TPE) at Stalybridge is due about 6 mins after the arrival after the Northern train. If the former is running late, and arrives with the TPE already at the platform, they generally wait (especially f you can wave to the guard!) but so they lose about 3 minutes, but if the Southport train isn't in, even if just a minute late, chances are the TPE will have gone.

That TPE train is useful for Slaithwaite, Marsden etc as a stopping train from Piccadilly so it's a useful connection!

 

[sh24]

So now we're proposing delaying trains to make negative (non) 'connections'?

Yes when there have been no trains from Paddington for 4 hours and the only way of getting to the West Country was this routing.

 

[GoneSouth]

Yes when there have been no trains from Paddington for 4 hours and the only way of getting to the West Country was this routing.

Yes, and with XC’s habit of 3 hour gaps on the Nottingham to Cardiff on Sundays, why not help people out a bit (and if there’s any financial implications, send the bill to XC).

 

[Travelmonkey]

I've not had it officially but made a few tight connections thanks to staff putting the ramp in my connecting train when my origin arrives in late. I take it as a mild win of I make it and a oh well if I don't, I do think the delay cost will be alot of it and same Toc to Toc your likey to get held, although a missed connection is delay repay from the toc delaying you,

 

[LowLevel]

The PIS displays are only active from when the driver opens up the leading cab. If the incoming driver knows the outgoing headcode like myself and many others do then they’ll input it but that’s over & above and not part of our duties.

Departing Yarmouth earlier is awkward as some services are normally due in at XX:12 if they depart Norwich at XX:40. Also they’d have to wait for the XX:45 Sheringham to depart anyway.

To be fair anecdotally speaking to our control GA control have fairly recently changed tack with the Norwich Liverpools from being quite collaborative in the event of issues to being more or less openly hostile to any suggestions of service holds complete with openly rude comments about "your trains are always late" on refusal - well yes they are since they tend to get regulated to death at Grantham and Peterborough in favour of other operator's trains and the irritatingly 2 hourly Ipswich stopper has a nasty habit of being released right in front of you when York ROC finally let you into a platform at Peterborough having held you for a succession of late running East Coast services

Consequently I wouldn't expect much cooperation going the other way any more either which is a shame because they'd usually ask for and agree a couple of minutes for a late Yarmouth!

My main bug bear in terms of station working at Norwich is the extremely irritating habit of leaving unlocked 755s on the blocks for hours on end especially on a Sunday with the displays saying Norwich or nothing with other trains working in and out on top of them.

I literally have to walk through them after I've pushed the ready to start collecting my passengers and it's rare not to have the station staff turn up with someone for an advance off the previous train who had it go without them because they boarded the unlocked train on the blocks.

I had one the other week that wasn't going out again for nearly 2 hours after my own train departed and it was already there when I arrived - leaving them sat around unlocked for so long is sloppy.

 

[sharpener]

The PIS displays are only active from when the driver opens up the leading cab. If the incoming driver knows the outgoing headcode like myself and many others do then they’ll input it but that’s over & above and not part of our duties.

Surely in that case the displays should clear down when the departing driver keys out so as to avoid displaying wrong/out of date information.

 

[dk1]

Surely in that case the displays should clear down when the departing driver keys out so as to avoid displaying wrong/out of date information.

It would just show the last info such as train terminates here. Doesn’t clear down completely or show any confusing destination.

 

[sharpener]

It would just show the last info such as train terminates here. Doesn’t clear down completely or show any confusing destination.

Well I wrote that just as @LowLevel was posting this. So he thinks it is a problem as well.

My main bug bear in terms of station working at Norwich is the extremely irritating habit of leaving unlocked 755s on the blocks for hours on end especially on a Sunday with the displays saying Norwich or nothing with other trains working in and out on top of them.

 

[dk1]

Well I wrote that just as @LowLevel was posting this. So he thinks it is a problem as well.

Nothing much can be done about the PIS unfortunately. Just pay attention to departures screens on the concourse/platforms or ask a member of staff. It’s never been any different with first and second generation DMUs before our current bimodal fleet.

Sometimes the unit on the buffer stop (B end) on platforms 1-5 will be locked up to save confusion.

 

[sharpener]

Also I wish they changed the external carriage destination display at Norwich sooner than half a minute before departure. Speaking as one who stupidly sat on a Lowestoft train thinking it was the Sheringham one, finally asking another passenger, to be put right just as the Sheringham pulled out. My own fault, confusing platforms 5 and 6, but having sat on the train on P6 for 20 minutes, looking at the train on P5 which still showed "Norwich" on the side, there wasn't much of a clue! I did Tweet them about this but I don't think it has been taken up.

and @trainophile as well!

When I am catching a northbound train from P5/6 at Cambridge (which is not often) they are usually sitting there not showing the correct destination. Ideally the previous driver would have input the headcode, I can't see why this is discretionary. Or the train itself would know the entire diagram, I can't imagine it is often changed on the fly except in cases of disruption when it would be doubly useful to have it confirmed! Or Control would be able to send the info to the train remotely if it is changed. But I agree there is not much more can be done with the existing technology.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They didn't. The actual cause for the delay was a combination of several things, though a passenger was involved in one of the things that caused a delay. I won't elaborate further as I think it would be unfair.

So, in non-specific terms, what was the issue?

 

[LowLevel]

Nothing much can be done about the PIS unfortunately. Just pay attention to departures screens on the concourse/platforms or ask a member of staff. It’s never been any different with first and second generation DMUs before our current bimodal fleet.

Sometimes the unit on the buffer stop (B end) on platforms 1-5 will be locked up to save confusion.

I filed a complaint about it some time ago after several Sundays on the trot of having to walk through someone else's train to collect the passengers and 2 missed last long distance connections and it's still very hit and miss as to whether someone comes to lock what are effectively stabled trains up or not at Norwich.

A few weeks back I was working the 1654 to Manchester which came in on top of a 755 at about 1620. Said 755 wasn't out till the1805 Lowestoft and was unlocked for the duration and as booked, being the conscientious type I and one of the station cleaners got some passengers off it.

Whether it's an issue caused by the driver usually controlling the doors on the 755s I don't know but I platform share at much busier terminal stations like Liverpool Lime St and Manchester Piccadilly with far fewer problems.

 

[dk1]

I filed a complaint about it some time ago after several Sundays on the trot of having to walk through someone else's train to collect the passengers and 2 missed last long distance connections and it's still very hit and miss as to whether someone comes to lock what are effectively stabled trains up or not at Norwich.

A few weeks back I was working the 1654 to Manchester which came in on top of a 755 at about 1620. Said 755 wasn't out till the1805 Lowestoft and was unlocked for the duration and as booked, being the conscientious type I and one of the station cleaners got some passengers off it.

Whether it's an issue caused by the driver usually controlling the doors on the 755s I don't know but I platform share at much busier terminal stations like Liverpool Lime St and Manchester Piccadilly with far fewer problems.

It wouldn’t have anything to do with drivers operating the doors. Certain station supervisors may request to the duty traincrew manager upstairs that the shed & ferry or a spare driver pops across and locks one up but it all depends who’s on duty. Like anywhere, some are more proactive than others.

 

[43066]

My main bug bear in terms of station working at Norwich is the extremely irritating habit of leaving unlocked 755s on the blocks for hours on end especially on a Sunday with the displays saying Norwich or nothing with other trains working in and out on top of them.

Shades of the situation at Pancras where the Sheffield departs from directly in front of the Nottingham. Some TMs like to leave the doors closed until the last minute but that causes a very crowded platform.

 

[island]

A train I used from time to time was the 17:00 Ashford Int to Charing Cross, changing at Sevenoaks onto a stopper departing 17:50 to get to a suburban Southeastern station. This was always a cross-platform change. The express used to be timed to arrive in Sevenoaks at 17:46 and regularly ran some minutes late. The stopper was usually held.

Annoyingly, the service was retimed to arrive at 17:47 as of last weekend, fouling the 4-minute MCT and meaning advances are now no longer available for that journey. One can of course still travel on an anytime day single route Not via London or Ebbsfleet, as the stopper is still held rather than sending it out in front of a service that's fast to London Bridge, but at a much higher price than getting an advance and doubling-back through London Bridge, or doing the Ebbsfleet-Gravesend-Hither Green hop.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Used to happen all of the time! Trumping that - once at St Erth in the early 90s, they ran the branch train to St. Ives for me, my Dad and one other passenger. We'd missed the last advertised one, due to delayed mainline service.

Non-stop, went like the clappers in a first generation DMU (or maybe have bean a 150 - that bit is a bit blank! Done it that many times) Unheard of now!

Similarly, in the early 80s, the staff from Sheffield arranged for an ECS HST to Leeds to stop at Rotherham Masbrough. They phoned ahead to the station and my worried Dad to let him know! I was worried and stood by the door, as I had to 'get off sharpish' when it stopped.

When common sense prevailed!

 

[IanXC]

Having seen this debate play out many times in the past I tend to think that considering holding a connection needs the next service to be more than 60 minutes away, unless there are good reasons to consider something else, eg, isolated branchline, or considerable turnaround time at the other end. You also have to think about situations like the stopping service from Carlisle towards Newcastle, where some stations only get a call every 2 hours, but the overall delay is minimised by adding additional stops to a later on time train, rather than holding the earlier train which is booked to call.

I filed a complaint about it some time ago after several Sundays on the trot of having to walk through someone else's train to collect the passengers and 2 missed last long distance connections and it's still very hit and miss as to whether someone comes to lock what are effectively stabled trains up or not at Norwich.

A few weeks back I was working the 1654 to Manchester which came in on top of a 755 at about 1620. Said 755 wasn't out till the1805 Lowestoft and was unlocked for the duration and as booked, being the conscientious type I and one of the station cleaners got some passengers off it.

Whether it's an issue caused by the driver usually controlling the doors on the 755s I don't know but I platform share at much busier terminal stations like Liverpool Lime St and Manchester Piccadilly with far fewer problems.

Ultimately, if passengers fail to board the correct train and are delayed as a result, then it is arguably the station operator, or the erroneous train operator, who is responsible for the delay. Perhaps GA might benefit from finding this out the hard way - much as your devotion to good customer service is admiral.

 

[Krokodil]

Perhaps GA might benefit from finding this out the hard way

What might provide them with an even firmer kick up the backside would be if a DfT inspector were to look into security at Norwich. It's a cat B station, if trains are being left open for more than (I think) 30 minutes then they need to be periodically checked as part of routine security sweeps. Perhaps an inspector needs to plant one of their dummy suspicious packages to see if they're checking properly. A few disrupted passengers can be fobbed off with some compo. DfT inspectors however really do make management sweat.

 

[Horizon22]

It wouldn’t have anything to do with drivers operating the doors. Certain station supervisors may request to the duty traincrew manager upstairs that the shed & ferry or a spare driver pops across and locks one up but it all depends who’s on duty. Like anywhere, some are more proactive than others.

Surely the platform staff should just lock it up, especially if it’s going to be sitting on the blocks for hours on end?