Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[frankmoh]

Desiro Cities have great acceleration, it's just they're fairly quiet so you don't always notice it.

It will be a sad day in the 2030s... no more /9s creaking under their own acceleration from the Metcam motors... I bet there will be a /0 plodding about on the Bromley North line though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Desiro Cities have great acceleration, it's just they're fairly quiet so you don't always notice it.

At least they make the funny UFO sound when leaving stations.

(dunno why that sent as two seperate messages)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Ok I might've killed the thread so I ask a genuine question: aside from Electrostars and Desiro City's, what do you guys think will also be included in Southeastern's fleet? Do you think that 2024 tender might create a new train or simply a variant of an existing one?

 

[ScotGG]

It was 2022 wasn't it when the tender announced? https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2022/W45/786367024

Think it's safe to say a full build and introduction by 2027 is not happening.

 

[frankmoh]

It was 2022 wasn't it when the tender announced? https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2022/W45/786367024

Think it's safe to say a full build and introduction by 2027 is not happening.

Never trust Wikipedia for trains! They somehow underestimated the amount of scrapped /2s by 240%.

I bet in 2027 there will still be a 376 in the Connex livery.

 

[bramling]

Apologies, the 707s were sort of dumped on SE because SWR ended up ordering 701s to replace them along with everything else. SE used them to get rid of the most problematic Networker units, but it's still another fleet to have to learn and maintain in a different way to others. In hindsight though the 701 debacle should have seen all the 707s stay at SWR until enough 701s were deployed to allow them all to go to SE; as it happens the 707 cascade was staggered because of the former issue, but I still think too quick given SWR's situation.

I don't think this will happen, but I would like to see the fleet being tendered by SE at the moment have a multirole aspect and be larger than currently speculated. If the fleet was large enough, they could also replace the 376s for a more homogenous fleet. Furthermore, if a subset were ordered with a different interior layout more suited for longer distance operations, they could send all the 377s back to Southern. Electrostars might have better interior comfort (especially the 375s), but their stop/start acceleration is poor compared to Networkers, so a new fleet with a 375-like interior and 465-like acceleration would work wonders on the Tunbridge Wells', Maidstone East line and Chatham mainline stopping services. Also, if the new fleet had a top speed of 90-100mph, it could fully utilise line speeds above 75mph.

Is the 375’s acceleration due to power supply limitations? The 387s on GN don’t seem to be particularly poor accelerating.

 

[frankmoh]

Is the 375’s acceleration due to power supply limitations? The 387s on GN don’t seem to be particularly poor accelerating.

I wonder if it could be possible to compare Southern's 377s to SE's 376s or 375s? Has anyone timed some coming out of London Bridge or Beckenham Junction?

 

[PGAT]

Is the 375’s acceleration due to power supply limitations? The 387s on GN don’t seem to be particularly poor accelerating.

Trains aren’t able to stretch their legs as much on third rail DC as opposed to OHLE due to the lower voltage

 

[bramling]

Trains aren’t able to stretch their legs as much on third rail DC as opposed to OHLE due to the lower voltage

This is what I’m thinking. If the 375s are limited when operating on DC, presumably any replacement train would have the same issues.

 

[brad465]

Is the 375’s acceleration due to power supply limitations? The 387s on GN don’t seem to be particularly poor accelerating.

Trains aren’t able to stretch their legs as much on third rail DC as opposed to OHLE due to the lower voltage

I'd love to know how the Networkers got such superb acceleration, but the 375 and 376 fleets have lower acceleration rates despite being newer. Eversholt quote the 465 acceleration as 0.98ms-2, 376s as 0.66ms-2, while 375s are 0.62ms-2. I can understand the latter being lower as it's geared for a higher top speed, but the 376 acceleration rate, and the rate of other metro fleets that have come in later years, somehow being slower than something introduced in the early 90s seems backwards.

 

[Tourveg]

My own video here of the move at Patchway yesterday afternoon. Cheers for watching if you do, I try and capture most of the moves when I’m not bashing abroad.

 

[ScotGG]

Never trust Wikipedia for trains! They somehow underestimated the amount of scrapped /2s by 240%.

I bet in 2027 there will still be a 376 in the Connex livery.

The link isn't Wikipedia.

Here's another link showing 2022 was when the tender first announced. https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/southeastern-tenders-new-rolling-stock-fleet/

2024 which the first post of this thread refers to was the subsequent stage of the tender which commenced earlier.

 

[brad465]

It was 2022 wasn't it when the tender announced? https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2022/W45/786367024

Think it's safe to say a full build and introduction by 2027 is not happening.

The process just to get to the point of an order being placed definitely seems to be too long. If the problem was a government unwilling, the previous government had good incentives to approve the order: bolster their chances in a number of their then-seats in the south-east to reduce their overall losses, then if a new order is to be given to a manufacturer with a UK factory, they could promote the jobs that would bring/retain and shore up support in areas around that factory too. This probably sounds cynical, but a lot of stuff done in politics puts political gain before rationality. This is why it baffles me the Bakerloo line fleet has taken a while to approve: it boosts investment in both London and the North East, given Goole factory is where most of the new fleet would be assembled.

 

[Robin Edwards]

In terms of clearing out Ely Papworth Sidings of Networkers, there are now eight 465/9s and eight 466s left to move so maybe the patten will be one of each leaving each week.

 

[lumitumey12345]

In terms of clearing out Ely Papworth Sidings of Networkers, there are now eight 465/9s and eight 466s left to move so maybe the patten will be one of each leaving each week.

They are scrapping those 8 465/9s too?

 

[Milo T.K]

Do any of the /9s regen breaking enabled?

Sort of since a couple have it but cuts out at 15mph but depends on who's driving it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2025 ==

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I bet in 2027 there will still be a 376 in the Connex livery.

The way it's going last connex one should be gone this September or October

 

[frankmoh]

Sort of since a couple have it but cuts out at 15mph but depends on who's driving it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2025 ==


The way it's going last connex one should be gone this September or October

Interesting how quick the Connex livery is going compared to how long it took NSE to dissappear. Improvements in wrapping technology?

 

[rmHawk765]

I wonder if it could be possible to compare Southern's 377s to SE's 376s or 375s? Has anyone timed some coming out of London Bridge or Beckenham Junction?

I could do so but it highly depends on how the driver departs. From a terminating platform they'd probably not apply much power due to a likely low exiting speed limit.

 

[PGAT]

I could do so but it highly depends on how the driver departs. From a terminating platform they'd probably not apply much power due to a likely low exiting speed limit.

They don’t actually share track anywhere outside of ECS and diversions so you may as well time it anywhere you can reliably get a clear run

 

[Class15]

They don’t actually share track anywhere outside of ECS and diversions so you may as well time it anywhere you can reliably get a clear run

Hastings - St Leonards?

 

[Qwertl]

Money’s very tight at the moment. Spending Review outcome being announced in a couple of weeks. Maybe once that’s all confirmed we might hear a bit more.

 

[brad465]

Money’s very tight at the moment. Spending Review outcome being announced in a couple of weeks. Maybe once that’s all confirmed we might hear a bit more.

Capital spending is reported to be generous. However, whether that includes new rail fleets is another matter.

 

[Mollman]

Money’s very tight at the moment. Spending Review outcome being announced in a couple of weeks. Maybe once that’s all confirmed we might hear a bit more.

From my understanding the spending review will mainly set department budgets, then the DfT will have to decide what to do with the money. However as new trains will be politically useful (as long as it goes to a British factory) then it might be announced quickly.

 

[frankmoh]

From my understanding the spending review will mainly set department budgets, then the DfT will have to decide what to do with the money. However as new trains will be politically useful (as long as it goes to a British factory) then it might be announced quickly.

And if they don't choose British train makers?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is what I’m thinking. If the 375s are limited when operating on DC, presumably any replacement train would have the same issues.

When these were procured there was current cap of 4,500 Amps applied to each train nominally 1,500 Amps/4 Car as 12 car combinations were longest that ran. I believe there counterpart 377's have the ability to modify the current limit depending on whether they a 4 or 8 car combos. Furthermore class 700's have geofencing which allows them to take advantage on routes that have high current capability (6,000 Amps). On SE a fair few routes have the installed infrastructure for high current capability (Victoria to Folkestone via Tonbridge/Maidstone East and the CX/Cannon St Lines to Dartford) so if the specification calls for geofencing some opportunity can be taken.

 

[ScotGG]

Capital spending is reported to be generous. However, whether that includes new rail fleets is another matter.

If they're leased it won't go on capex but operating budgets?

Even at 30+ years old and maintenance being an issue will keeping them going work out cheaper than leasing new stock?

 

[Milo T.K]

They don’t actually share track anywhere outside of ECS and diversions so you may as well time it anywhere you can reliably get a clear run

there are occasions when 377s and 375s run to Ramsgate and or Hastings tho with 377s its uncommon for it to happen

 

[Mollman]

And if they don't choose British train makers?

They'll probably wait for a day when it can be a 10 second segment of the news about new trains

 

[Milo T.K]

Generally seems when a 377 is on Ramsgate services it's the same as a 375. In regards to 376s those rarely ever stray out of the metro area in passenger service though it seems to have faster acceleration

 

[brad465]

They don’t actually share track anywhere outside of ECS and diversions so you may as well time it anywhere you can reliably get a clear run

If we did a cross comparison of quoted acceleration rates, the 377 appears to win out slightly. 377s are quoted at 0.67ms2, whereas 375s are 0.62ms2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

There's a scrap drag in for this Thursday, but unlike recent drags, this one is bound for Kingsbury rather than Newport:

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 0852 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Kingsbury Emr Sidings | 05/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 0852 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Kingsbury Emr Sidings on 05/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Robin Edwards]

deleted

 

[a340egkk]

Sort of since a couple have it but cuts out at 15mph but depends on who's driving it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2025 ==


The way it's going last connex one should be gone this September or October

This is not correct, none of the MetCam/GEC units have any sort of dynamic braking enabled now that the previous trial on one or two is finished.

The driver is not permitted to enable or disengage regen / rheo without authority.

What you may hear is power being taken going uphill, whilst decelerating (going uphill Tanner’s Hill is a good example) which sounds like regen.