Crowd Management at Liverpool Lime Street after Parade

[Jan Mayen]

One in Lord Nelson Street and one on Lime Street itself - my cousin’s daughter called in to use the toilet and was locked in the pub for a while when somebody let a flare off in the bar…..

On the subject of security contractors, I suspect the problem is that they’re given simple black and white instructions but no guidance as to how to escalate matters or make their own decisions. At an event like this, they really should be paired with rail staff who can get hold of a manager quickly.

You can be locked IN a pub when a flare is set off?
I'd most likely want to be straight out the door...

 

[Krokodil]

On the subject of security contractors, I suspect the problem is that they’re given simple black and white instructions but no guidance as to how to escalate matters or make their own decisions. At an event like this, they really should be paired with rail staff who can get hold of a manager quickly.

More usefully they need a segregated queuing system to work with.

 

[childwallblues]

As well as the entrance from Lime Street station there are two more I think

Actually there are three - two on Lime Street and one in Lord Nelson Street.

 

[Djgr]

Actually there are three - two on Lime Street and one in Lord Nelson Street.

I'll have to check next time I'm in town!

Certainly this is an incredibly busy pub and must really eat into the revenue of the likes of Upper Crust.

 

[daveo]

If there was 000s waiting a 66 seater double decker is not really going to make inroads

Have you ever heard the parable of the starfish on the beach? (look it up if not)

 

[The Planner]

Anyone think Network Rail are fit for purpose after this debacle?
After all this is an organisation that struggles to give a passenger wheelchair assistance never mind manage an event of this size.

What do you intend to replace them with?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that any suggestions, ideas, proposals, or any other form of speculation belong in Speculative Discussion, please

 

[43066]

What do you intend to replace them with?

GBR?!

 

[sjm77]

I have a detailed reply to my complaint sent to Network Rail. Highlights are;

"There was some signage to help passengers find their way to the entrance of Skelhorne Street, but upon reflection, this signage was not sufficiently visible"
"I fully acknowledge that the arrangements were not clearly communicated on site"
"As the evening progressed, the number of empty seats on departing services reduced"

Regarding signage, when I eventually reached the top of the steps and was facing Platform 8, there was ZERO signage visible in the glass windows that would have been the obvious place for it.

The quite frank admission that the number of empty seats on departing trains only reduced is quite alarming. I had hoped to see the word 'eliminated' or talk of 'full and standing'. Wow!

 

[8J]

I have a detailed reply to my complaint sent to Network Rail. Highlights are;

"There was some signage to help passengers find their way to the entrance of Skelhorne Street, but upon reflection, this signage was not sufficiently visible"
"I fully acknowledge that the arrangements were not clearly communicated on site"
"As the evening progressed, the number of empty seats on departing services reduced"

Regarding signage, when I eventually reached the top of the steps and was facing Platform 8, there was ZERO signage visible in the glass windows that would have been the obvious place for it.

The quite frank admission that the number of empty seats on departing trains only reduced is quite alarming. I had hoped to see the word 'eliminated' or talk of 'full and standing'. Wow!

Speaking to some NR staff at the station today, they are still in denial that their employer did anything wrong and they still seem quite happy to blame the shambles solely on the Water Street incident and the inclement weather. This I find most concerning.

I'm told that an industry wide review will take place, however it is not clear whether or not anybody or any organisation will be properly held to account.

 

[Misici]

I was in the queue at 5:30, 10 trains left Lime Street between then & 6:12 pm and the queue didn't move at all. if these had been near capacity I'd have expected 20% of this to have progressed. The queue barely moved between 5:30- 9:30pm with 50+ trains departing with the exception of families with children and elderly people leaving the queue both tired and wet.

CNBC broadcast the Water Street incident at 6:12 due to their live feed for the parade and this was pulled at 6:26pm, 4 trains departing in between this timeframe. The Police suggested at 8pm, they did not believe this to be terror related.

Why was their no provision for the rain, this was predicted a week beforehand & why were trains being allowed to leave below capacity when TOC staff had highlighted this to NR/BTP?

 

[jamesst]

Speaking to some NR staff at the station today, they are still in denial that their employer did anything wrong and they still seem quite happy to blame the shambles solely on the Water Street incident and the inclement weather. This I find most concerning.

I'm told that an industry wide review will take place, however it is not clear whether or not anybody or any organisation will be properly held to account.

And as in most workplaces you'll be hard pressed to find an employee willing to criticise there employer in public (especially when they're currently at that workplace) regardless of any private views they may or may not hold. I'd never put them in that position.

 

[8J]

And as in most workplaces you'll be hard pressed to find an employee willing to criticise there employer in public (especially when they're currently at that workplace) regardless of any private views they may or may not hold. I'd never put them in that position.

That may well be the case, however I have a good working relationship with a lot of the NR staff where we can speak openly to them about most things. It is worrying that they don't think that NR did anything wrong.

 

[londonteacher]

Why was their no provision for the rain, this was predicted a week beforehand & why were trains being allowed to leave below capacity when TOC staff had highlighted this to NR/BTP?

Were people not wearing waterproof coats? It is not NRs job to keep people dry and people should have planned accordingly as the rain was forecast for most of the day including the parade. Time for people to take some accountability of their own disorganisation, although yes I accept they should not have been in the ques for so long!

NRs job is to run the station which they did not do well in this instance.

 

[AdamWW]

And as in most workplaces you'll be hard pressed to find an employee willing to criticise there employer in public (especially when they're currently at that workplace) regardless of any private views they may or may not hold. I'd never put them in that position.

Interesting.

I've had many conversation with train company (not NR) staff where they have been more than happy to criticise their employers, and indeed more than once I've been asked to put in a complaint because the management doesn't listen to staff but does to passengers.

And there have been the odd times I've heard PA announcements that weren't exactly supportive of the railway's decision making.

In my experience it is much rarer for train or station staff to attempt to defend the indefensbile than to agree that there's a problem.

 

[yorkie]

Were people not wearing waterproof coats? It is not NRs job to keep people dry and people should have planned accordingly as the rain was forecast for most of the day including the parade. Time for people to take some accountability of their own disorganisation, although yes I accept they should not have been in the ques for so long!

You do realise some people were unexpectedly waiting for around 6+ hours? I'm not sure anyone could be expected to be prepared for anything like what happened on the day.

You quote a post which asks a valid question; the question remains unanswered, but I don't think NR will ever answer it in a satisfactory way.

While you no doubt didn't intend it to come across this way, it comes across as deflecting from the failings.

I don't know about others but the more I read such views, the more I would like to see NR/BTP brought to account. But of course, I accept that won't happen.

NRs job is to run the station which they did not do well in this instance.

That's one of the biggest understatements I've heard this year!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2025 ==

And as in most workplaces you'll be hard pressed to find an employee willing to criticise there employer in public (especially when they're currently at that workplace) regardless of any private views they may or may not hold. I'd never put them in that position.

A private conversation between rail staff of different employers isn't really a public discussion.

Furthermore, it's not a binary thing; an admission that things didn't go to plan between staff at organisations within the same industry is far more likely to occur, and absolutely nothing like, a criticism of their employer in public.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2025 ==

Interesting.

I've had many conversation with train company (not NR) staff where they have been more than happy to criticise their employers, and indeed more than once I've been asked to put in a complaint because the management doesn't listen to staff but does to passengers.

And there have been the odd times I've heard PA announcements that weren't exactly supportive of the railway's decision making.

In my experience it is much rarer for train or station staff to attempt to defend the indefensbile than to agree that there's a problem.

This is all very true.

 

[Misici]

I wore a waterproof coat & still got soaked, I also had dry clothes in my bag and couldn't get to them because you could'nt move in the queue. Having made provision to stay in Liverpool if needed, as I wasn't there for the parade. Once my family became aware of the events in Water Street, they wanted me to go home. I'd also been speaking to somebody in their early 20's in the queue who was going to the same destination and I was also concerned for their safety having seen people collapse. It was only through the restraint that people in queue showed that somebody wasn't seriously injured. NR need to take their accountability for their failings on this day so this doesn't happen again.

 

[bramling]

You do realise some people were unexpectedly waiting for around 6+ hours? I'm not sure anyone could be expected to be prepared for anything like what happened on the day.

Whilst I completely agree with the views that the management of the situation was clearly appalling, at the end of the day getting wet is one of those things. I’m not sure it’s the responsibility of the railway if people don’t prepare.

You quote a post which asks a valid question; the question remains unanswered, but I don't think NR will ever answer it in a satisfactory way.

Unfortunately I suspect you’re right. NR are just not accountable to the end-user. If they’re accountable to anyone it’s politicians, which is probably a lot of the problem. I guess the only redeeming thing is they’re not as bad as Railtrack were.

 

[Ianigsy]

Were people not wearing waterproof coats? It is not NRs job to keep people dry and people should have planned accordingly as the rain was forecast for most of the day including the parade. Time for people to take some accountability of their own disorganisation, although yes I accept they should not have been in the ques for so long!

The weather forecast was for showers, not six hours of constant rain.

 

[yorkie]

Whilst I completely agree with the views that the management of the situation was clearly appalling, at the end of the day getting wet is one of those things. I’m not sure it’s the responsibility of the railway if people don’t prepare.

Getting wet was just something mentioned by another poster as an aside. Appearing to focus on that looked to me like an attempt to deflect from the failings.

 

[VItraveller]

given reports that Disabled people were left in the rain and were significantly distressed and worried im half hoping that a disability campaigner like Doug Paulley or one of the others could pick this up, that would definitely put some rockets up some backsides.

 

[Lampshade]

The weather forecast was for showers, not six hours of constant rain.

Yes, in the morning it was very much “hmm… let’s take a brolly” territory, not the aftermath of the log flume at Alton Towers.

 

[VItraveller]

Were people not wearing waterproof coats? It is not NRs job to keep people dry and people should have planned accordingly as the rain was forecast for most of the day including the parade. Time for people to take some accountability of their own disorganisation, although yes I accept they should not have been in the ques for so long!

NRs job is to run the station which they did not do well in this instance.

out of interest, have you ever had to spend six hours in the rain before?

 

[Starmill]

That may well be the case, however I have a good working relationship with a lot of the NR staff where we can speak openly to them about most things. It is worrying that they don't think that NR did anything wrong.

The idea that that numpty attacking people with his car on Water Street really had anything to do with the matter seems to have been pretty well rebutted by the two accounts above in #103 and #228. Worrying they think that's really what happened.

 

[jamesst]

out of interest, have you ever had to spend six hours in the rain before?

I used to work outdoors in all weather so planned accordingly.
As much as Network Rail can (& rightly should) be blamed for the complete mess that was Lime Street they can't be blamed for the weather.

 

[island]

It’s a Network Rail managed station, so I’d expect NR staff form up the bulk of the staff there.

Network Rail don't provide station/platform/dispatch staff at any of their managed stations in London. Southeastern staff London Charing Cross and Cannon Street, Southern staff Victoria, and so on.

 

[Horizon22]

Network Rail don't provide station/platform/dispatch staff at any of their managed stations in London. Southeastern staff London Charing Cross and Cannon Street, Southern staff Victoria, and so on.

No but they do provide lots of customer experience staff, and these would be the ones managing entrances / exits, responding to fire alerts, dealing with faults and often the ones provide passenger assistance etc. TOC staff are as you say normally restricted to operation of gatelines and dispatching trains not the overall station operation.

As an aside Cannon Street is a bit of an oddity as the vast majority of staff are Southeastern with a very limited NR staff contingent.

 

[Starmill]

Network Rail don't provide station/platform/dispatch staff at any of their managed stations in London. Southeastern staff London Charing Cross and Cannon Street, Southern staff Victoria, and so on.

I think it's the same at all of them except Birmingham New Street. On a typical day just a small handful of the staff will be from Network Rail, and none of them are doing things like assisting with gateline, selling tickets or dispatching trains. If there's a dedicated member of staff doing booked assistance or information / announcements, they may be from Network Rail.

 

[GordonT]

Network Rail don't provide station/platform/dispatch staff at any of their managed stations in London. Southeastern staff London Charing Cross and Cannon Street, Southern staff Victoria, and so on.

At least that's something to be thankful for.

 

[yorkie]

I used to work outdoors in all weather so planned accordingly.
As much as Network Rail can (& rightly should) be blamed for the complete mess that was Lime Street they can't be blamed for the weather.

No-one is blaming NR for the weather. See my post above; this is an irrelevant distraction which should not retract from the failings of those in charge. What happened would not be acceptable in any weather conditions.