First Rail Stirling (Lumo) Rolling Stock

[Bletchleyite]

I would imagine further to that that if they were doing a more traditional high-service operation they'd not use the Lumo brand - more likely they'd call it "Stirling Trains" or similar (along the lines of the Hull brand, which is a full service TOC). It would rather confuse the Lumo brand were they to have a full service TOC under that brand as well as the basic one, particularly if things like luggage allowances differed.

Thus I would conclude they are going to make it the same as t'other Lumo. And if so, it will be interesting to see if they meet any trouble!

 

[BlueLeanie]

I would imagine further to that that if they were doing a more traditional high-service operation they'd not use the Lumo brand - more likely they'd call it "Stirling Trains" or similar (along the lines of the Hull brand, which is a full service TOC). It would rather confuse the Lumo brand were they to have a full service TOC under that brand as well as the basic one, particularly if things like luggage allowances differed.

Thus I would conclude they are going to make it the same as t'other Lumo. And if so, it will be interesting to see if they meet any trouble!

The SEx announcement published and linked to earlier says otherwise.

"The new service will be operated under the successful Lumo brand"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

Given post #95 has a regulatory statement quoting 340 Standard Class seats per 6-car set I think you're right. It also depends what they do with the space currently occupied by the Buffet and part of the kitchen between the leading passenger door and the first class area (as is). Simple move would be to just gut and use as luggage stores; more complex would to get, add windows and maximise seating. My money would be on the former unless they want to provide large luggage stacks in each coach. New seating also allows them to try push under seat storage for small bags given the next to useless overhead racks.

I'm not convinced any major structural changes would be made to the vehicle for a relatively short term lease.

Replace the seats throughout the train, put the existing ones in storage until the end of lease. Lock out the buffet/kitchen or use it for Trolley storage.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Will also be interesting to see how these are staffed. Class 222 can be used in DOO mode (although never been worked like that) and have full capabilities for short platforms.

EMR have a bizarre arrangement where the Driver "arms" the doors, after selecting the number of carriages accommodated, which then allows the Train Manager to release them. Rather than just the driver opening... If the Train Manager doesn't open them quick enough after the driver has armed them, the process has to restart.

Given that there seems to only be driver recruitment, I suspect like the East Coast, these will be DOO as well, but are going to need to be dispatched manually by station staff. Are some of those Scottish stations staffed with dispatch competent teams, or staffed at all?

They aren't suitable for non dispatch DOO - there's no screens or body side cameras for the driver.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Sterling is staffed for all trains, motherwell I think. Also, is it doing lockaby? If so then there may be a problem there

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Sterling is staffed for all trains, motherwell I think. Also, is it doing lockaby? If so then there may be a problem there

National Rail shows Lockerbie booking office hours as 07.00 to 20.20 Mon to Sat, much shorter hours on Sunday, and staff help available 06.45 to 20.50 (also shorter on Sun) (these times also for waiting rooms which suggests it is unstaffed until 06.45 and from 20.50.

 

[800001]

Will also be interesting to see how these are staffed. Class 222 can be used in DOO mode (although never been worked like that) and have full capabilities for short platforms.

EMR have a bizarre arrangement where the Driver "arms" the doors, after selecting the number of carriages accommodated, which then allows the Train Manager to release them. Rather than just the driver opening... If the Train Manager doesn't open them quick enough after the driver has armed them, the process has to restart.

Given that there seems to only be driver recruitment, I suspect like the East Coast, these will be DOO as well, but are going to need to be dispatched manually by station staff. Are some of those Scottish stations staffed with dispatch competent teams, or staffed at all?

They aren't suitable for non dispatch DOO - there's no screens or body side cameras for the driver.

If they follow east coast Lumo and have Customer Ambassadors, which I’m sure they will, they will probably tweak that role for full ‘guard’ despatch.

Lumo east coast Ambassadors are trained to despatch when the situation is needed eg CCTV fault etc.

 

[chiltern trev]

Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.

Are there any OLE upgrades planned?

 

[SamCam]

Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.

I will be interested to see how Lumo handle this in terms of PR as well, given the emphasis they have put on their ECML operation being 100% electric.

 

[QSK19]

I will be interested to see how Lumo handle this in terms of PR as well, given the emphasis they have put on their ECML operation being 100% electric.

They could stretch the truth by saying something like their fleet is 100% electric traction or 100% powered by electric motors (remembering that 222s are DEMU).

Whilst we all know that’s effectively a con and can see through that, it’s technically not a lie. They’ll come up with some sort of sneaky wording!

 

[geoffk]

I would imagine further to that that if they were doing a more traditional high-service operation they'd not use the Lumo brand - more likely they'd call it "Stirling Trains" or similar (along the lines of the Hull brand, which is a full service TOC). It would rather confuse the Lumo brand were they to have a full service TOC under that brand as well as the basic one, particularly if things like luggage allowances differed.

Thus I would conclude they are going to make it the same as t'other Lumo. And if so, it will be interesting to see if they meet any trouble!

Isn't this part of a blatant attempt by First to undermine the Government's plans for the railways? More open access will result in less income for the new nationalised GBR, while the addition of more trains to the network will put pressure on performance, something that the Government wants to improve. At least Heidi Alexander appears less enthusiastic than her predecessor as she can see the pitfalls. Apols in advance for any digression.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will be interested to see how Lumo handle this in terms of PR as well, given the emphasis they have put on their ECML operation being 100% electric.

Suspect they will just quietly drop that. But it is amusing how they were shouting that to justify lacking diversionary capability due to not having any donkey engines!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2025 ==

Isn't this part of a blatant attempt by First to undermine the Government's plans for the railways? More open access will result in less income for the new nationalised GBR, while the addition of more trains to the network will put pressure on performance, something that the Government wants to improve. At least Heidi Alexander appears less enthusiastic than her predecessor as she can see the pitfalls. Apols in advance for any digression.....

This is an interesting thing to delve into so I've created a new thread for it:

Motivations of expanded open access?

Isn't this part of a blatant attempt by First to undermine the Government's plans for the railways? More open access will result in less income for the new nationalised GBR, while the addition of more trains to the network will put pressure on performance, something that the Government wants to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[800001]

I will be interested to see how Lumo handle this in terms of PR as well, given the emphasis they have put on their ECML operation being 100% electric.

Shout and scream that they are having to use diesels as they only have the rights for 4 years, but give us an extension and we will order brand new electric trains also helping secure jobs at factories blah blah

 

[Jturner98]

Does anyone know what the journey times will be from Euston - Stirling?

 

[lrbvoyager]

If they follow east coast Lumo and have Customer Ambassadors, which I’m sure they will, they will probably tweak that role for full ‘guard’ despatch.

Lumo east coast Ambassadors are trained to despatch when the situation is needed eg CCTV fault etc.

If lumo doesn’t have a guard to be dispatched by avanti staff at Preston and Carlisle the Avanti staff will strike as they have a strong union.

 

[800001]

If lumo doesn’t have a guard to be dispatched by avanti staff at Preston and Carlisle the Avanti staff will strike as they have a strong union.

and this is what turns people against railway staff, striking because a different operater does something different.
Eg Carlisle 2 car northern trains despatched by staff. Yet York they self despatch on curved platforms. Why the difference?

 

[The Middle]

If lumo doesn’t have a guard to be dispatched by avanti staff at Preston and Carlisle the Avanti staff will strike as they have a strong union.

Well that'd be alright, Lumo would still be able to dispatch whether they are on strike or not if they are driver dispatch.

 

[Trainman40083]

Shout and scream that they are having to use diesels as they only have the rights for 4 years, but give us an extension and we will order brand new electric trains also helping secure jobs at factories blah blah

Not much point in committing to new trains unless you get a return on the investment over a set number of years.

 

[800001]

Not much point in committing to new trains unless you get a return on the investment over a set number of years.

I know, that’s why they are getting 222s and that why I write what I did above.
They have clearly stated if they get an extension they will exercise the clause in the contract with a hitachi for extra units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2025 ==

Edit - updates at 0555 Wednesday

A link below regards the refurbishment and maintenance of the Lumo 222 fleet

Railnews - Class 222s to be upgraded for FirstGroup's new open access route

railnews.mobi

Alstom has signed a contract worth £50 million with FirstGroup and Eversholt Rail to refurbish and maintain five 6-car Class 222 Meridian trains which will be used next year on FirstGroup’s new open access service between London Euston and Stirling.

The contract has two components. One, worth 10 million pounds, is for the refurbishment of the 222s, which were built by Bombardier and entered service with the Midland Mainline franchise in 2004. The other part, worth 40 million pounds, is for maintenance of the fleet for five years from 2026. The work will be carried out at Alstom’s Central Rivers depot in Burton upon Trent, where the similar Class 220 and 221 Voyagers are maintained. The depot was acquired by Alstom when it took over Bombardier in 2021.

The refurbishment, which has been agreed with Eversholt Rail, will be carried out at Alstom’s centre in Widnes. New ergonomically designed seating will be fitted, along with upgraded Wi-Fi and Intelligent Engine Start-Stop technology, which automatically shuts down and restarts the engines when the train is stationary, saving fuel and emissions. The five trains will also receive a full repaint in FirstGroup’s blue Lumo livery.

Peter Broadley, who is commercial director UK and Ireland at Alstom, said: ‘This partnership marks a significant milestone in our commitment to delivering high-performance, customer-focused rail services across the UK. By combining Alstom’s deep technical expertise with the operational excellence of FirstGroup and Eversholt Rail, we’re ensuring that fare-paying passengers benefit from a modern, reliable and comfortable travel experience between Stirling and London. The investment in both refurbishment and long-term support reflects our shared ambition to drive innovation and sustainability in rail transport,’

FirstGroup chief executive Graham Sutherland said: ‘We are pleased to work with Eversholt Rail and Alstom on the rolling stock element of our new service between London and Stirling. This new route is another important step towards rolling out Lumo as a nationwide operator and growing our open access capacity, a key priority for FirstGroup. Our investment and capabilities in open access rail have delivered reliable, value for money services, grown rail demand and helped to spur economic growth and connect communities. We look forward to doing the same on our new services.’

 

[QSK19]

Sounds to me like they’re going around September time come what may with the 810s then?

Five or six months should presumably be enough time to offboard from EMR, refurbish, onboard to Lumo and then introduce into service in spring 2026?

 

[Snow1964]

Alstom has signed a £50m deal with First and Eversholt

£10m for refresh work on 5 x 6car at Widnes
£40m for 5 year train servicing, maintenance, cleaning at Three Rivers

Trainmaker Alstom has signed a £50m deal with FirstGroup and Eversholt Rail for the refresh and maintenance of five, six-car Class 222 Meridian trains.

The contract comes ahead of open access passenger services being launched between Stirling and London under FirstGroup’s Lumo brand.

The contract, which will support 50 jobs, includes a Train Services Agreement (TSA) with FirstGroup – valued at approximately £40m – to be delivered at Alstom’s Central Rivers facility in Burton. From here, Alstom will maintain, overhaul, service and clean the five trains over the next five years.

The deal also includes a fleet modernisation programme with Eversholt Rail – worth around £10 million – which will be carried out at Alstom’s Widnes site.

Alstom on board for £50m maintenance deal | TheBusinessDesk.com

Some fifty jobs will be supported through the contract

www.thebusinessdesk.com

 

[BlueLeanie]

So all new (standard?) seating, which is what we expected.

 

[QSK19]

So all new (standard?) seating, which is what we expected.

In that case, the concept of not having first class seating in the Meridians (or whatever they get called at Lumo, but would be a shame for the name not to continue) would seem strange!

But a new era brings new things - and hopefully some aspects that are fundamentally wrong with them at EMR (a big one being Wi-Fi) will be sorted.

 

[InTheEastMids]

So all new (standard?) seating, which is what we expected.

hopefully some aspects that are fundamentally wrong with them at EMR (a big one being Wi-Fi) will be sorted.

Looking at the 7-car plan for EMT/EMR on Seat61, I didn't get to 340 seats just by taking out a first class carriage and swapping the remaining first class for standard. I was about 12-16 short. I can't imagine there are 500 standard class seats of the current obsolete design sitting around in storage either.

It's not just the WiFi (which I agree is utterly hopeless), but I think the only things they've done recently is seat covers, LED lighting and maybe some minor improvements to the toilets. But in general the fixtures look very battered, the carpets are toxic, the internal door controls seem unreliable. They need a full refurb.

From what I've gathered from other threads here, running with an engine out is getting more common too, so presumably some of that money needs to be spent on bits customers do not see.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Alstom has signed a £50m deal with First and Eversholt

£10m for refresh work on 5 x 6car at Widnes
£40m for 5 year train servicing, maintenance, cleaning at Three Rivers

Alstom on board for £50m maintenance deal | TheBusinessDesk.com

Some fifty jobs will be supported through the contract

www.thebusinessdesk.com

Ahh makes perfect sense then.
I heard rumour last week that there wasn't going to be enough room at the inn at Barton under Needwood to maintain all the XC fleet of voyagers. I didn't believe it primarily because the depot was purpose built for the 78 units of class 220 and 221. So if Alstom are basing 5 x 6 car 222s in addition to the 78 sets of home fleet, then space is probably going to be tight.

Rumour I heard was that 220033 is going into storage for around 4 months - probably at Litchurch Lane, and "might" become the first refurb candidate

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the 7-car plan for EMT/EMR on Seat61, I didn't get to 340 seats just by taking out a first class carriage and swapping the remaining first class for standard. I was about 12-16 short. I can't imagine there are 500 standard class seats of the current obsolete design sitting around in storage either.

An extra 16 is not even one extra row per coach. They'll easily achieve that by reducing to two tables per coach (you need them to reverse the seat direction) and tightening the pitch which they'll get away with due to the thinner seat backs, assuming they fit the same seats as their 80x fleet.

 

[43066]

If lumo doesn’t have a guard to be dispatched by avanti staff at Preston and Carlisle the Avanti staff will strike as they have a strong union.

Why on earth should that be the case? LNER staff didn’t go on strike when Lumo began operations on the ECML.

and this is what turns people against railway staff, striking because a different operater does something different.
Eg Carlisle 2 car northern trains despatched by staff. Yet York they self despatch on curved platforms. Why the difference?

I don’t think there’s any evidence they are going to go on strike over this.

On that point, though, 222s are not equipped with in-cab monitors so presumably they will need to use guard dispatch, unless CD/RA is available at all locations.

 

[QSK19]

It's not just the WiFi (which I agree is utterly hopeless), but I think the only things they've done recently is seat covers, LED lighting and maybe some minor improvements to the toilets. But in general the fixtures look very battered, the carpets are toxic, the internal door controls seem unreliable. They need a full refurb.

From what I've gathered from other threads here, running with an engine out is getting more common too, so presumably some of that money needs to be spent on bits customers do not see.

Yep, they are looking shabby and have been run ragged. And I completely agree with the other aspects beyond Wi-Fi that you list.

As I said, a new start with Lumo, so hopefully its passengers will get a refurb which is befitting for them. Seems to be £333k per carriage based on a spend of £10m on this aspect.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I was about 12-16 short. I can't imagine there are 500 standard class seats of the current obsolete design sitting around in storage either.

I'm confused. Is the brand new "ergonomically designed" seating that they've announced will be fitted already a discontinued design?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm confused. Is the brand new "ergonomically designed" seating that they've announced will be fitted already a discontinued design?

No. I think the poster you're replying to was suggesting they would use the original seats. I doubt that - they will be new seats, presumably of the same design as existing Lumo stock - these seats have thinner backs than the originals so it would be easier to fit more in.

 

[InTheEastMids]

No. I think the poster you're replying to was suggesting they would use the original seats. I doubt that - they will be new seats, presumably of the same design as existing Lumo stock - these seats have thinner backs than the originals so it would be easier to fit more in.

Yes I was saying (although not terribly clearly) that not only could you not get the seat count high enough with the existing seats, nobody's likely to have the extra 500 odd Standard seats of what's currently in the 222s sitting in a shed somewhere. I must have missed the bits in the PR that unambiguously stated there were to be new seats - I had only skimmed a few bits.