Manchester Metrolink (Non speculative discussion)

[AlastairFraser]

Five minutes on the train, five minutes minimum for a reliable connection and then seventeen from Castleton to Manchester Victoria. Best case journey time of 27 minutes, however you only have two opportunities to depart each hour, so you have to account for that.

Average (random time at station) journey time of 42 minutes, worst case travel time of 57 minutes.
It's not a particularly attractive solution, in my view.

Manchester is not a particularly large urban area, the journey time penalties from changing and low service frequencies are going to be quite punishing.

I don't think it's fair to take into account distance from station, because 1) during the peaks, usual office/retail shift patterns in Manchester city centre allow you to tailor departure/arrival times to the start and end of shifts effectively, and 2) you then also have to take into account the distance from Victoria to the workplace, and that skews the journey time out of proportion completely.

Whitefield to Manchester Victoria is twenty minutes.
Fifteen minute drive to Whitefield, worst case connection time of ~six minutes (ie. you arrive just as a tram leaves), twenty minute journey time on the tram. That makes 41 minutes, worst case, leaving for the first leg whenever you want. The average (assuming the driving time is fixed, obviously) is 38 minutes.

15 min drive at best, you'd have to add contingency time to that. It depends where you are in Heywood too.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Pathing the tram trains between Rochdale and Castleton will be tricky given the intensive passenger service plus freights, also Bury-bound tram trains will need to cross the down line at Castleton East Junction and Oldham-bound tram trains will need to cross the up (towards Victoria) line at Rochdale East Junction. Network Rail will not be keen to have these additional services between Rochdale and Castleton. Battery-powered tram trains will avoid the need for OLE on that section (and beyond to Heywood and Bury). The Calder Valley route is needed for diversions during the TRU so the number and duration of possessions will need to be minimised. AFAIK the junction with the spur to Metrolink (never used as such) is still in at Rochdale East Junction.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think it's fair to take into account distance from station, because 1) during the peaks, usual office/retail shift patterns in Manchester city centre allow you to tailor departure/arrival times to the start and end of shifts effectively, and 2) you then also have to take into account the distance from Victoria to the workplace, and that skews the journey time out of proportion completely.

I didn't take any distance from station values into account? I assume the person was departing from the proposed new station location.
I then assumed that the connection at Castleton was tightly timetabled to the minimum acceptable connection time for the station.

Contigency has to be added on top of this because if you are one minute late and miss the train, it costs you half an hour.

I suggest random arrival at station is a reasonable medium, and the worst case value is one that people will have to take into account.
Assuming people will be able to tightly plan their entire life to the minute to meet a half hourly timetable is probably not a great assumption for the railway to make.

15 min drive at best, you'd have to add contingency time to that. It depends where you are in Heywood too.

Contingency time to the drive only adds linearly to the tram journey though. You will never wait more than six minutes for the tram connection. You can end up waiting a long time (30 minutes at 2tph) if you miss a train in the heavy rail scenario.
Position in Hayward probably has the same impact on both solutions, so can probably be excluded for the purposes of comparison.

In urban transport frequency is enormously important - which is why the car has been so succesful, it has functionally infinite frequency.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I didn't take any distance from station values into account? I assume the person was departing from the proposed new station location.
I then assumed that the connection at Castleton was tightly timetabled to the minimum acceptable connection time for the station.

Contigency has to be added on top of this because if you are one minute late and miss the train, it costs you half an hour.

I suggest random arrival at station is a reasonable medium, and the worst case value is one that people will have to take into account.
Assuming people will be able to tightly plan their entire life to the minute to meet a half hourly timetable is probably not a great assumption for the railway to make.

Millions of people manage to successfully do this commuting on 2tph or less frequent lines across the UK!

Contingency time to the drive only adds linearly to the tram journey though. You will never wait more than six minutes for the tram connection. You can end up waiting a long time (30 minutes at 2tph) if you miss a train in the heavy rail scenario.
Position in Hayward probably has the same impact on both solutions, so can probably be excluded for the purposes of comparison.

In urban transport frequency is enormously important - which is why the car has been so succesful, it has functionally infinite frequency.

Never? I thought the Metrolink had times of reduced operation?

 

[507 001]

Unfortunately that crack underneath the A56 bridge in the inbound has been there for quite a while now. It's quite rough to ride over it even at a 5 mile/hour restriction.

It’s not a crack.

It must take its toll on drivers having to navigate that and then the posted 4 mile/hour which is even longer standing at Deansgate-Castlefield, along with a number of others depending on which way they're going after that.

The 4mph TSR at DCF is hardly noticeable considering normal line speed at that point is only 5mph anyway.

You will never wait more than six minutes for the tram connection.

Apart from when we’re running a 12 minute service post peak, or a 15 minute service on Sundays.

 

[Starmill]

It’s not a crack

The 4mph TSR at DCF is hardly noticeable considering normal line speed at that point is only 5mph anyway.

Exactly my point yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2025 ==

Never? I thought the Metrolink had times of reduced operation?

Even on working days, most stops receive 5tph at certain times of day just as you say. North of Shaw & Compton always does.

 

[Rail Ranger]

All the more reason to advertise the timetable.

 

[Starmill]

All the more reason to advertise the timetable.

It was probably wise to when the 4tph came back on Sundays, although they still didn't create an actual timetable when there were periods of 3tph. The actual timetable is in the GTFS data feed so you can see it in Google Maps, traveline etc, but this feed is a little neglected so relying on it is another matter.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I find the tram times in traveline.info reliable.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It’s not a crack.

What then is the issue (and when might it be fixed)? Just passed through the affected area under the A56 (Bridgewater Way, Old Trafford) and, as others have said, it is extremely slow running.

 

[Starmill]

I find the tram times in traveline.info reliable.

It's not that it's not reliable exactly, it often is, it's that sometimes it doesn't quite change correctly when the timetable is revised for engineering work.

If it were published in a traditional timetable booklet a bit more care would need to be taken around what dates it changes on. The current works go on for too long and change the schedule too much not to have to republish it, which presumably adds costs.

In addition if they did publish it they'd end up getting far more claims for compensation and complaints from people who see the time and then miss the tram because it departed a couple of minutes before that time, and by giving out an arrival time the customer is more likely to try to claim for a delay.

At present the customer service are of the view that they won't give compensation for delays unless it was both thirty minutes or longer and caused by something within their control. They will also refuse refund requests for tickets not used at all if there was an alternative option within 30 minutes such as ticket acceptance on a bus. Giving people a time would make it a lot easier for them to argue that they were delayed and are due some kind of compensation. You may be offered a free ticket for a future journey in place of a refund or compensation as a "gesture of goodwill". Season ticket holders are sometimes sent "love 2 shop" vouchers as the same. They wouldn't admit to any liability to be paying compensation out in these cases.

 

[507 001]

????????????

Exactly my point yes.

Well no, it’s actually the opposite of your point. You said that it must take its toll on Drivers and yes, some of the TSRs do. However not the 4 at DCF which is a reduction in speed of exactly 1mph, and is therefore barely noticeable.

What then is the issue (and when might it be fixed)? Just passed through the affected area under the A56 (Bridgewater Way, Old Trafford) and, as others have said, it is extremely slow running.

Not 100% sure except that it seems to be an issue with a fishplated joint where old rail meets the recently rerailed dive under.

Said dive under is a bit of a maintenance nightmare anyway at the moment, as it is massively over canted. The design speed through the curve is 30mph and we currently run through at 15mph due to line of sight restrictions (who thought that was a good idea?!).

Because of the design issue we have really unusual forces being transmitted through the track, resulting in the lengths of rail trying to straighten out and excessive rail wear. There is a plan to do a renewal later in the year/sometime next year to reduce the amount of cant through the curve.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Said dive under is a bit of a maintenance nightmare anyway at the moment, as it is massively over canted. The design speed through the curve is 30mph and we currently run through at 15mph due to line of sight restrictions (who thought that was a good idea?!).

Thanks for the explanation. That's quite a strategic location on the Metrolink network as just about everything from Altrincham, East Didsbury, Manchester Airport and/or Old Trafford depot, to/from Manchester city centre, has to pass by, that way.

 

[Starmill]

Well no, it’s actually the opposite of your point. You said that it must take its toll on Drivers and yes, some of the TSRs do. However not the 4 at DCF which is a reduction in speed of exactly 1mph, and is therefore barely noticeable.

Only if you're one of the drivers who unwisely simply ignores it. A 20% reduction that's barely noticeable isn't exactly something the rolling stock is optimised for. What kind of toll were you thinking of? Simply being late isn't in itself an issue for a driver, unless they have an especially bad line manager. To be honest you have a really bad attitude and I'm not sure it's worth arguing with your ego over this.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They very easily could have left a MCUK - Deansgate peak service running in place of Etihad. Shameful how often MCUK services are cut leading to the already low frequency Eccles service getting a diversion via there.

 

[507 001]

Only if you're one of the drivers who unwisely simply ignores it. A 20% reduction that's barely noticeable isn't exactly something the rolling stock is optimised for. What kind of toll were you thinking of? Simply being late isn't in itself an issue for a driver, unless they have an especially bad line manager. To be honest you have a really bad attitude and I'm not sure it's worth arguing with your ego over this.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make? You seem to be stating things as fact and then getting annoyed when people point out that that is not necessarily the case.

I am simply saying that as far as TSRs go, the one at DCF really isn't a bad one as you're only going through there 1mph slower than you normally would as line speed is 5mph. Going through the one between Cornbrook and Pomona on the other hand, where the speed has been reduced to 5mph from 25mph over a considerable distance does take a bit of a toll on the Drivers. Late running means limited turnaround time, which means greater fatigue. Limited turnaround times also results in people being reluctant to take personal needs breaks, especially if it's going to have an effect on their meal break or their finishing time. Line managers have nothing to do with day to day late running, that would be a controller's job.

You're the one who suggested it would take some sort of toll on the Drivers to be going through there, it really doesn't. Also going 20% slower through an area really does nothing to the vehicles, unless in the case of Cornbrook dive under the track is an unusual geometry and is designed for a specific speed.

I am not sure what my 'ego' has to do with this discussion?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Even on working days, most stops receive 5tph at certain times of day just as you say. North of Shaw & Compton always does.

Indeed

 

[MPW]

Delete

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any future date soon when the seemingly never-ending operational problems on the Manchester Metrolink system will finally be resolved and a "normally expected" service will be operational?

 

[507 001]

Is there any future date soon when the seemingly never-ending operational problems on the Manchester Metrolink system will finally be resolved and a "normally expected" service will be operational?

Like what?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Like what?

Even you cannot possibly deny, that no sooner do we get the full network running again after weeks of closures and altered service pattern, do Metrolink choose a different part of the network to then close for weeks.

When I moved to Salford Quays in August, nothing could go through Shudehill for about a month, a few weeks later nothing could go through Mosley Street for about two months, not long after that was fixed MediaCity Eccles closed completely for about two months, then Bury, then we had another Mosley Street closure for a fortnight or so, now this three months of closures through Piccadilly.

(All the while Metrolink cannot be bothered to keep the MediaCity service going and the already poor Eccles service is diverted via the MCUK stub AGAIN)

 

[duffield]

Even you cannot possibly deny, that no sooner do we get the full network running again after weeks of closures and altered service pattern, do Metrolink choose a different part of the network to then close for weeks.

When I moved to Salford Quays in August, nothing could go through Shudehill for about a month, a few weeks later nothing could go through Mosley Street for about two months, not long after that was fixed MediaCity Eccles closed completely for about two months, then Bury, then we had another Mosley Street closure for a fortnight or so, now this three months of closures through Piccadilly.

(All the while Metrolink cannot be bothered to keep the MediaCity service going and the already poor Eccles service is diverted via the MCUK stub AGAIN)

Only a small anecdote, but I think I've visited the ELR (East Lancs Railway) at Bury about five times in the past two years, arriving at Piccadilly, and only once have I been able to get a direct tram from Piccadilly to Victoria/Bury. I wouldn't mind so much if the mainline service from Piccadilly to Victoria via the Ordsall chord was more than once an hour since it only takes 9 minutes, but my train typically arrives about 45 minutes before that service so it's pretty useless. There's frequent buses of course, which I haven't tried, but I've read that their journey times are massively affected by congestion at times.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Only a small anecdote, but I think I've visited the ELR (East Lancs Railway) at Bury about five times in the past two years, arriving at Piccadilly, and only once have I been able to get a direct tram from Piccadilly to Victoria/Bury. I wouldn't mind so much if the mainline service from Piccadilly to Victoria via the Ordsall chord was more than once an hour since it only takes 9 minutes, but my train typically arrives about 45 minutes before that service so it's pretty useless. There's frequent buses of course, which I haven't tried, but I've read that their journey times are massively affected by congestion at times.

Yes, it’s ridiculous how rare it is to have the full service up and running on the Metrolink. The next date for that will now be end of August, by which time there’ll probably be signs up for the next 8 week closure elsewhere.

 

[507 001]

Even you cannot possibly deny, that no sooner do we get the full network running again after weeks of closures and altered service pattern, do Metrolink choose a different part of the network to then close for weeks.

When I moved to Salford Quays in August, nothing could go through Shudehill for about a month, a few weeks later nothing could go through Mosley Street for about two months, not long after that was fixed MediaCity Eccles closed completely for about two months, then Bury, then we had another Mosley Street closure for a fortnight or so, now this three months of closures through Piccadilly.

(All the while Metrolink cannot be bothered to keep the MediaCity service going and the already poor Eccles service is diverted via the MCUK stub AGAIN)

It’s called a rolling upgrade scheme. What would you prefer, that we just closed the whole lot of it in one go? Or how about we just let it fall apart?

These closures are not ‘operational problems’, they are solutions to operational problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2025 ==

Yes, it’s ridiculous how rare it is to have the full service up and running on the Metrolink. The next date for that will now be end of August, by which time there’ll probably be signs up for the next 8 week closure elsewhere.

How wonderful it would be if nothing ever needed repairing or replacing eh?

 

[markymark2000]

It’s called a rolling upgrade scheme. What would you prefer, that we just closed the whole lot of it in one go?

These closures are not ‘operational problems’, they are solutions to operational problems.

Metrolink seems to have a significant amount more closures, and closures which go on far longer than say London Tramlink or indeed any other transport network. I know Northerners enjoy a cup of tea sometimes but the length of these closures and amount of closures is getting a bit silly.

I think it's great how much you will stand up for Metrolink, but surely even you must get to a point where you realise you are defending the indefensible?

 

[507 001]

Metrolink seems to have a significant amount more closures, and closures which go on far longer than say London Tramlink or indeed any other transport network. I know Northerners enjoy a cup of tea sometimes but the length of these closures and amount of closures is getting a bit silly.

I think it's great how much you will stand up for Metrolink, but surely even you must get to a point where you realise you are defending the indefensible?

So again I ask what would you have us do? Let it fall apart and injure/kill someone? How about we try again to put an LRV through the window of the Cafe Nero in St Peter’s square? Maybe we’ll be successful this time…

How about we just add more and more TSRs, so that the journeys become impossibly slow, and the drivers get more and more stressed about finishing late and end up having more safety critical incidents?

Or do we just close the whole lot?

It is an aging network with a maintenance backlog caused by COVID. Even the new lines are the best part of 15 years old now.

The comparison to tramlink is an interesting one. M5000s are a few tons heavier than a CR4000 and we operate them as double units. Even discounting the doubles, the result is that we have more wear for a given frequency due to the higher axle loading. We also have considerably more route mileage and therefore more to maintain.

The currently affected section will have seen in excess of 12 million individual wheelsets passing over it since it was last replaced.

Tramway track always takes longer to renew than conventional ballasted track. Take Brooklands-Sale inbound which was rerailed earlier in the year in just a single weekend possession.

I really don’t see how defending them for spending money to renew and upgrade the network is defending the indefensible. Sure the disruption is less than ideal, but it is a necessary evil and actually doing it this way keeps that disruption to a minimum.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's great how much you will stand up for Metrolink, but surely even you must get to a point where you realise you are defending the indefensible?

I'm pretty sure everyone knew that nearly every week this year was going to be affected by the track replacement work. It was very similar in the second half of last year. And similar the year before that on the Eccles line. It's not like there's been some lack of publicity. Work has to be very carefully coordinated so that it doesn't clash with the Christmas Market, Manchester Pride and so on.

Have you actually been to see where the track is being replaced what they're doing? It takes more work than building the tramway in the first place did.

Network Rail have exactly the same issue where it takes several weeks to get underneath their concrete slab mounted tracks and install new ones as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2025 ==

Assuming people will be able to tightly plan their entire life to the minute to meet a half hourly timetable is probably not a great assumption for the railway to make.

I wouldn't say it's a good assumption that people will spend 70 minutes on the 163 between Heywood and Shudehill today either. But have you got any better ideas?

 

[HSTEd]

I wouldn't say it's a good assumption that people will spend 70 minutes on the 163 between Heywood and Shudehill today either. But have you got any better ideas?

The high frequency of the bus at least partially offsets the travel time disadvantage.

With integration you could also provide a fast bus to a suitable metrolink stop.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The high frequency of the bus at least partially offsets the travel time disadvantage.

With integration you could also provide a fast bus to a suitable metrolink stop.

I am fairly sure that there once was a fast limited-stop bus service from Heywood to Manchester which went via Birch and Bowlee.

 

[Starmill]

The high frequency of the bus at least partially offsets the travel time disadvantage.

It doesn't. The 163 is 5bph, half the frequency of your suggested tram service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2025 ==

With integration you could also provide a fast bus to a suitable metrolink stop.

That could be provided tomorrow, but historically TfGM do not really support express bus services.