Revamping penalty fares

[thw6]

I’d say that we should scrap penalty fares for people that say have got on a train and forgot to buy a ticket/expired railcards provided they have the means to pay when a revenue inspector comes on and they then pay for a rail card but have the dates shortened after an investigation as to when journey was sorted.

However in return I’d have harsher penalties for those who commit genuine fraud I.e. fake tickets, don’t have the means to buy a ticket and/or assaults on staff

 

[Leogilbert007]

Agreed but

1. What would these “harsher penalties“ be? And
2. Should this be in Speculative Discussion or Fares Advice & Policy?

 

[jamiearmley]

Fake tickets and staff assaults, (verbal or otherwise), are already dealt with more harshly - a penalty fare is not issued for the above offences, a travel incident report is issued instead, with an almost certain escalation to magistrates court.

Penalty fares serve as a higher than normal fare for genuine mistakes and oversights.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I’d say that we should scrap penalty fares for people that say have got on a train and forgot to buy a ticket/expired railcards provided they have the means to pay when a revenue inspector comes on and they then pay for a rail card but have the dates shortened after an investigation as to when journey was sorted

So you’re proposing to legitimise pay when challenged?

 

[thw6]

So you’re proposing to legitimise pay when challenged?

Yes if they offer to buy a ticket there and then. If they don’t then issue the penalty fares/report for prosecution

 

[SuspectUsual]

Yes if they offer to buy a ticket there and then. If they don’t then issue the penalty fares/report for prosecution

Why? How does that encourage people to pay for their travel? Surely you can see there have to be consequences if people don’t buy tickets?

 

[thw6]

Why? How does that encourage people to pay for their travel? Surely you can see there have to be consequences if people don’t

There would be consequences they would then get a penalty fare and/or reported for prosecution if they didn’t pay there or then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

Agreed but

1. What would these “harsher penalties“ be? And
2. Should this be in Speculative Discussion or Fares Advice & Policy?

Happy for it to be moved to another board if necessary

 

[AlterEgo]

There would be consequences they would then get a penalty fare and/or reported for prosecution if they didn’t pay there or then.

So essentially there’s no penalty for boarding a train and chancing not being checked, and getting a free journey. Unserious proposal.

 

[RPI]

Clearly the OP has no experience of the sheer amount of Pay when challenged chancers out there... And that's with PF's as a deterrent

 

[thw6]

Clearly the OP has no experience of the sheer amount of Pay when challenged chancers out there... And that's with PF's as a deterrent

I genuinely don’t get the issue under my proposal. 1. If you get stopped at any point within your journey you’ll either pay a normal fare for the journey it costs or 2. You’ll get a penalty fare with costs and maybe reported for fraud.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

I genuinely don’t get the issue under my proposal. 1. If you get stopped at any point within your journey you’ll either pay a normal fare for the journey it costs or 2. You’ll get a penalty fare with costs and maybe reported for fraud.

But what it does stop is train companies profiteering off the genuine mistakes.

 

[GadgetMan]

So there's 800 passengers on a full and standing trains.

Let's say majority of the stations on route are unbarriered.

Guard can't walk through to sell tickets.

So they all travel free?

 

[SuspectUsual]

I genuinely don’t get the issue under my proposal. 1. If you get stopped at any point within your journey you’ll either pay a normal fare for the journey it costs or 2. You’ll get a penalty fare with costs and maybe reported for fraud.

I make a journey between two ungated stations

The conductor checks tickets 20% of the time

So under your proposal I travel for free 80% of the time, and pay the normal fare 20% of the time

Is this OK?

 

[thw6]

I make a journey between two ungated stations

The conductor checks tickets 20% of the time

So under your proposal I travel for free 80% of the time, and pay the normal fare 20% of the time

Is this OK?

Then more resources should be put on those ungated stations or put gates on them.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Then more resources should be put on those ungated stations or put gates on them.

And in the real world?

 

[saismee]

Should this be in Speculative Discussion or Fares Advice & Policy?

Probably.

Then more resources should be put on those ungated stations or put gates on them.

I think it'd be a better idea to target the reason for fare evasion. The majority of fare evasion is due to fares being so disproportionately high compared to similar countries. If we had a way to reduce spending to improve pricing, we wouldn't need to crack down so hard.

I disagree. Penalty fares are there for a reason and they truly are the least-worst scenario for a missing ticket. It's expensive yes, but there has to be a punishment for not paying. Where do you propose the money for gates comes from? If penalty fares are scrapped then there's even less money to fund revenue protection.

 

[AlterEgo]

I genuinely don’t get the issue under my proposal. 1. If you get stopped at any point within your journey you’ll either pay a normal fare for the journey it costs or 2. You’ll get a penalty fare with costs and maybe reported for fraud.

In your world, people chancing it get to just pay the usual fare, while people who simply can’t pay get clattered with a “harsher penalty”.

The penalty fare costs what it does because people can’t get caught every time. It disincentivises hardcore evaders who happily pay only when challenged. If your ticket costs £5 and you dodge it every time, you only have to get caught once in every ten trips for this to become uneconomical.

 

[thw6]

p

So essentially there’s no penalty for boarding a train and chancing not being checked, and getting a free journey. Unserious proposal.

Most stations have barriers and those that don’t perhaps could be staffed more or barriers put in place?

 

[SuspectUsual]

p

Most stations have barriers and those that don’t perhaps could be staffed more or barriers put in place?

Leas than 20% of stations have barriers. (Obviously a lot more than 20% of journeys involve a gated station)

 

[thw6]

Or if the amount of RPI’s that board trains be converted to normal guards then more regular tickets can be sold .

 

[AlterEgo]

Most stations have barriers

No they don’t. Most stations don’t have barriers.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Or if the amount of RPI’s that board trains be converted to normal guards then more regular tickets can be sold .

But WHY? These are people who are trying to break the law and avoid payment. They are almost always NOT innocent “oh I was running late / forgot / my phone died” types.

It’s really, really simple. Buy a ticket. Travel. Don’t buy a ticket. Get penalised

 

[thw6]

No they don’t. Most stations don’t have barriers.

Ok then reposition the staff for certain non barrier stations or put barriers in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

But WHY? These are people who are trying to break the law and avoid payment. They are almost always NOT innocent “oh I was running late / forgot / my phone died” types.

It’s really, really simple. Buy a ticket. Travel. Don’t buy a ticket. Get penalised

If they pay and buy a ticket to me that’s job done if they don’t then they get penalty fare and fraud. (Also pass on to fraud team if the person is suspected of short faring)

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok then reposition the staff for certain non barrier stations or put barriers in.

If you have barriers you have to have staff. Where’s all this money coming from for the thousands of extra staff this would need? If you don’t even know that the vast majority of stations in the country aren’t barriered I don’t think we can have a discussion.

 

[SuspectUsual]

If they pay and buy a ticket to me that’s job done

This is absolutely insane. I’m out

 

[thw6]

If you have barriers you have to have staff. Where’s all this money coming from for the thousands of extra staff this would need? If you don’t even know that the vast majority of stations in the country aren’t barriered I don’t think we can have a discussion.

Well I believe we can have this discussion. Let’s say a mass group of RPI’s boarding trains and let’s be honest they are not just 1 or 2. If they boarded more trains as regular guards they can pick up more individuals who haven’t paid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

This is absolutely insane. I’m out

Please explain why this is insane. I think it’s reasonable if someone offers to pay for a ticket at any point in the journey then that covers the cost of the journey? Agreed. If they don’t pay that is intention not to pay and then they can pay increased penalty fares/increased prosecution costs

 

[AlterEgo]

Well I believe we can have this discussion. Let’s say a mass group of RPI’s boarding trains and let’s be honest they are not just 1 or 2. If they boarded more trains as regular guards they can pick up more individuals who haven’t paid

No, I’m out, because you think there are “mass groups of RPIs” available. You fundamentally don’t understand what you’re talking about.

 

[thw6]

No, I’m out, because you think there are “mass groups of RPIs” available. You fundamentally don’t understand what you’re talking about.

So RPI’s haven’t been boarding trains ir hanging round stations in large groups?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Please explain why this is insane. I think it’s reasonable if someone offers to pay for a ticket at any point in the journey then that covers the cost of the journey? Agreed. If they don’t pay that is intention not to pay and then they can pay increased penalty fares/increased prosecution costs

1 - paying for a ticket is a requirement, not something you offer to do once you’ve been caught out

2 - it is impossible to barrier every station and check every ticket. Your proposal legitimises evasion

 

[thw6]

1 - paying for a ticket is a requirement, not something you offer to do once you’ve been caught out

2 - it is impossible to barrier every station and check every ticket. Your proposal legitimises evasion

1. It would remain a requirement. To me it makes no difference if a guard sells you a ticket on the train then an RPI should sell you one too. If when you’re asked to buy a ticket you don’t have the money then the investigations start

 

[AlterEgo]

1. It would remain a requirement. To me it makes no difference if a guard sells you a ticket on the train then an RPI should sell you one too. If when you’re asked to buy a ticket you don’t have the money then the investigations start

So it’s only the poor and least fortunate who get investigated.