Revamping penalty fares

[saismee]

Where have I said it’s optional? I don’t condone fare dodging but people getting on the train without paying but do pay at some point before leaving the end station is different to those who again are hiding in the toilets/barging through barriers or abusing/assaulting staff do you agree?

This is somewhat of a strawman argument. Nobody is saying these are equal offences, but they are both still offences. Abusing/assaulting staff is entirely different to fare dodging, you can do one or the other, or both. I think the sentence "I don't condone fare dodging" is quite rich when you were very reluctant to mention important parts about your own PF in your previous thread. It very much comes across (and appears based on the times mentioned) that you yourself chanced it, got caught, and want to chance it again with less risk.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Where have I said it’s optional? I don’t condone fare dodging but people getting on the train without paying but do pay at some point before leaving the end station is different to those who again are hiding in the toilets/barging through barriers or abusing/assaulting staff do you agree?

One set of people hoping to evade fares by not being challenged by the guard or an RPI

A second set of people avoiding the guard / RPI by hiding

Both are wrong. Neither should get away with it merely by paying at some point

 

[Zomboid]

Where have I said it’s optional? I don’t condone fare dodging but people getting on the train without paying but do pay at some point before leaving the end station is different to those who again are hiding in the toilets/barging through barriers or abusing/assaulting staff do you agree?

A penalty fare is for travelling without a ticket, nothing more. Doesn't matter if it's a genuine mistake or malicious, there's no way for anyone to ascertain that after the fact. Abusing staff is a different offence entirely and would not be dealt with by a penalty fare.

It has to be more than "pay when challenged" or nobody would ever pay in advance.

Getting a PF isn't the end of the world, and it doesn't by itself make you a bad person. Mistakes happen, just take the slap on the wrist and move on - and remember to buy a ticket sooner next time.

 

[Krokodil]

Where have I said it’s optional? I don’t condone fare dodging but people getting on the train without paying but do pay at some point before leaving the end station is different to those who again are hiding in the toilets/barging through barriers or abusing/assaulting staff do you agree?

People assaulting staff should (and often do) end up in a criminal court.

A Penalty Fare of £50 plus the fare is a light civil sanction for someone who ignores opportunities to buy tickets before boarding, possibly in the hope that no one will be checking today.

All seems perfectly proportionate to me.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Where have I said it’s optional? I don’t condone fare dodging but people getting on the train without paying but do pay at some point before leaving the end station is different to those who again are hiding in the toilets/barging through barriers or abusing/assaulting staff do you agree?

You paid because you were approached by a member of staff. Had you not been and the gates at Fareham were open are you suggesting you would still have purchased a ticket when you hadn't done prior to seeing the ticket inspector?

 

[thw6]

You paid because you were approached by a member of staff. Had you not been and the gates at Fareham were open are you suggesting you would still have purchased a ticket when you hadn't done prior to seeing the ticket inspector?

Yes because it’s a return journey (and you also missed a bit the part in the thread that that particular journey I would have claimed travel expenses for anyhow).

 

[jamiearmley]

Yes because it’s a return journey (and you also missed a bit the part in the thread that that particular journey I would have claimed travel expenses for anyhow).

The point here, of course, is that there is no way of distinguishing between those who would have definitely paid, and those who would have chanced it.

Penalty fares exist for smaller transgressions such as not buying before you board.

For larger offences, such as deliberate evasion, abuse and assault, we have the MG11 and the courts.

I would agree with the overwhelming majority on here who seem to feel that the OP is upset at their own circumstance , and is trying to deflect blame by criticising the system.

There's a lot wrong with the system, but this isn't one of the problems.

Buy your ticket before you board where facilities exist.

If you don't wish to do that, don't use the train.

It's very very simple.

 

[thw6]

I’m not just for me though I’m trying to change it for everyone to make it fairer. It doesn’t cost the train company any more whether you buy it before the journey, on the train or before you get out the station as long as you buy it at some point.

 

[stevieinselby]

This thread needs reading along with the context of the OP being penalty fared after buying a ticket in front of an RPI - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-issues.264984/post-6697942 - ticket purchased 2 minutes before the PF was issued, 14 minutes after the OP left the station they boarded at.

I had assumed from the word go that the OP had been caught travelling without a ticket and was bitter about having to pay a penalty fare

 

[Krokodil]

I’m not just for me though I’m trying to change it for everyone to make it fairer. It doesn’t cost the train company any more whether you buy it before the journey, on the train or before you get out the station as long as you buy it at some point.

It does if you "forget" to purchase it when not reminded by the presence of an RPI asking for your ticket.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What I do think is that the existing set up should remain, but - something could be put in place so that a genuine mistake such as forgetting a railcard, losing the ticket or getting a date mixed up for advances can be forgiven once, with proof that it is a one off offence.

Currently you’d get a penalty fare. I think if you could somehow show a bank app statement or booking confirmation that supported the right price, or a photo or proof of having a railcard, you should have your details taken as now but with no (or less) money charged if everything shows up squeaky clean until then. It gives a chance to excuse genuine mistakes, while the more devious who might try and abuse this system can’t because when asked for their details it will show if they’ve already had a chance before.

 

[RPI]

What I do think is that the existing set up should remain, but - something could be put in place so that a genuine mistake such as forgetting a railcard, losing the ticket or getting a date mixed up for advances can be forgiven once, with proof that it is a one off offence.

Currently you’d get a penalty fare. I think if you could somehow show a bank app statement or booking confirmation that supported the right price, or a photo or proof of having a railcard, you should have your details taken as now but with no (or less) money charged if everything shows up squeaky clean until then. It gives a chance to excuse genuine mistakes, while the more devious who might try and abuse this system can’t because when asked for their details it will show if they’ve already had a chance before.

I kind of agree but in that an appeal for a first time offence should be more forgiving.

 

[swt_passenger]

Any suggestion that ‘first offences’ be treated differently requires a national database, (instantly accessible to staff), recording everybody who has already been caught once and presumably given a warning.

As someone up thread noted, it would be daft to make any scheme limited to single TOCs, there are so many areas where there’s a choice of 3 or more TOCs for the same journey.

Then what about ID, unless you introduce an ID requirement you still haven’t solved the issue of giving fake names and addresses, so do you have an instant mobile address search system, using the electoral roll? What about all those who didn’t register?

 

[Krokodil]

Any suggestion that ‘first offences’ be treated differently requires a national database, (instantly accessible to staff), recording everybody who has already been caught once and presumably given a warning.

I can see the merit to this. It would also open up the opportunity for escalating penalties.

First offence: £20+fare as a slap on the wrist warning (half for prompt payment)
Second offence: As now
Third: £200+ fare etc.

 

[thw6]

What I do think is that the existing set up should remain, but - something could be put in place so that a genuine mistake such as forgetting a railcard, losing the ticket or getting a date mixed up for advances can be forgiven once, with proof that it is a one off offence.

Currently you’d get a penalty fare. I think if you could somehow show a bank app statement or booking confirmation that supported the right price, or a photo or proof of having a railcard, you should have your details taken as now but with no (or less) money charged if everything shows up squeaky clean until then. It gives a chance to excuse genuine mistakes, while the more devious who might try and abuse this system can’t because when asked for their details it will show if they’ve already had a chance before.

Also anything that you’ve paid before should be deducted off any penalty fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One key chance I would make is that the fare component should be whatever would have been paid at the station before boarding had the ticket been prepurchased, including any off peak type discounts and Railcards. This part is simply meant to be paying the fare due, and that's hardly ever actually the Anytime Single. This was what was originally intended during the consultation but the TOCs seem to have managed to sneak it back to Anytimes.

If it's not considered enough of a penalty without hitting people with often ridiculously inflated Anytimes then the penalty component should increase. One could argue that it should gain an escalator based on RPI but going up in £5/10 chunks at a time (as a PF of £100.70 or something sounds a bit silly).