Revamping penalty fares

[furlong]

I think you are completely missing the point. The opportunities for fraud need to be designed out of the system. It has to be so easy to pay and hard to cheat that everyone chooses to pay. RPIs and Penalty Fares can only ever deal with a tiny fraction of the cheating.

It's worth remembering that when Penalty Fares were first introduced, there were quick and simple-to-use machines at stations where you dropped in some coins and got a receipt saying how much you'd paid. The complexity and slowness of the replacement machines is beyond comparison.

The railway does itself no favours.

Why are railcard renewals still not largely automated? (Direct debit etc.)
Why have we still not got a phone app that uses location data (incl bluetooth, wifi) combined with train running data to detect the journey and charge for it within agreed parameters? (Ref. EMR's new trial.)
Where are the warnings and confirmation requests when people buy tickets that on-the-face of it seem unlikely to be correct? Why are required declarations not explicitly stated on the tickets? (I believe this sort of rewording and prompting could eliminate a fair chunk of opportunistic fraud.)

Why do mobile apps deliberately make it difficult to pay the correct fare if you try to buy your ticket after boarding, making it easier for people to do the wrong thing (buy the ticket only from the next station) than the right thing (buy from where they previously boarded)?

 

[saismee]

I think you are completely missing the point. The opportunities for fraud need to be designed out of the system.

If the OP wants to prevent innocent people from being caught out by mistakes, then the opportunities for mistkaes should also be designed out. Automated railcard renewal is one that you even mentioned in your post. I agree with your full post and I think OP's idea of effectively removing penalty fares is somewhat of an XY problem.

Home - The XY Problem

xyproblem.info

The XY problem is asking about your attempted solution rather than your actual problem. This leads to enormous amounts of wasted time and energy, both on the part of people asking for help, and on the part of those providing help.

 

[njamescouk]

If you have barriers you have to have staff. Where’s all this money coming from for the thousands of extra staff this would need? If you don’t even know that the vast majority of stations in the country aren’t barriered I don’t think we can have a discussion.

the railway was pretty much a closed system in my youth, if it was affordable then it's affordable now.

traincos have made a commercial decision to lose fare revenue and save on gates.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

To me it makes no difference if a guard sells you a ticket on the train then an RPI should sell you one too.

Just to pick up on this point, it would remove a lot of confusion if all on-train staff had the same powers to deal with ticketless travel. How often have we seen 'I normally buy my ticket from the guard but this time an RPI gave me a penalty fare'?

 

[talldave]

No, I’m out, because you think there are “mass groups of RPIs” available. You fundamentally don’t understand what you’re talking about.

A career in politics beckons for the OP

 

[phoenix743]

Well I believe we can have this discussion. Let’s say a mass group of RPI’s boarding trains and let’s be honest they are not just 1 or 2. If they boarded more trains as regular guards they can pick up more individuals who haven’t paid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==


Please explain why this is insane. I think it’s reasonable if someone offers to pay for a ticket at any point in the journey then that covers the cost of the journey? Agreed. If they don’t pay that is intention not to pay and then they can pay increased penalty fares/increased prosecution costs

I’d say that we should scrap penalty fares for people that say have got on a train and forgot to buy a ticket/expired railcards provided they have the means to pay when a revenue inspector comes on and they then pay for a rail card but have the dates shortened after an investigation as to when journey was sorted.

However in return I’d have harsher penalties for those who commit genuine fraud I.e. fake tickets, don’t have the means to buy a ticket and/or assaults on staff

That’s insane, so all regular fare evaders have to do is wait until they are challenged then say I forgot to buy a ticket. If they are travelling 5 days a week and only get ticket checked once because of busy train etc.. then they are laughing. As for railcards if it has expired a year ago should we not recoup that money from all the discounted tickets that they have purchased. You have to remember that not everyone is honest in this world and it is not always just a mistake.

 

[saismee]

Just to pick up on this point, it would remove a lot of confusion if all on-train staff had the same powers to deal with ticketless travel. How often have we seen 'I normally buy my ticket from the guard but this time an RPI gave me a penalty fare'?

AIUI, guards can also give out penalty fares. They shouldn't be selling tickets on a penalty fare route. I've seen it first-hand, but realistically the guard should either warn them and sell them the ticket, or just give them the penalty fare first.

 

[RPI]

AIUI, guards can also give out penalty fares. They shouldn't be selling tickets on a penalty fare route. I've seen it first-hand, but realistically the guard should either warn them and sell them the ticket, or just give them the penalty fare first.

Guards can't issue PF's

 

[styles]

Under such a proposal I would never buy a non-Advance ticket before boarding ever again. If I can just buy on board for the same price, but with even a slight possibility that I get away without having to buy one, there is no incentive to buy before boarding.

It would lead to a fare revenue drop, and cost more in staffing because the guard/revenue protection would be selling a ticket to every other passenger who also chanced it.

I agree the penalty fares system needs to be reformed, particularly in relation to genuine mistakes or slight digressions, but I don't believe that removing the obligation to buy a ticket before boarding is the way to do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Guards can't issue PF's

Though perhaps ironically someone boarding without a ticket from London to Manchester or vice versa is likely to be stung, by a guard, for a sum well in excess of (nearly four times, in fact) a typical Merseyrail penalty fare.

I do very strongly agree the inconsistency is a problem, though. The Paytrain system of having trains on which you could always pay on board (provided you got past any gateline*) and trains where no tickets are ever sold on board was probably a better one.

* For instance at Southport the Regional Railways services used a separate platform outside the Merseyrail gateline.

 

[Krokodil]

But what it does stop is train companies profiteering off the genuine mistakes.

Train companies? You mean the taxpayer? Why should my taxes be used to subsidise those who try to avoid paying their way?

That’s insane, so all regular fare evaders have to do is wait until they are challenged then say I forgot to buy a ticket. If they are travelling 5 days a week and only get ticket checked once because of busy train etc..

Back in the days of £20 penalty fares, the scallies on Merseyrail used to just carry a £20. If they were caught they'd pay the PF in cash. So long as they only got caught once a week or less they were winning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back in the days of £20 penalty fares, the scallies on Merseyrail used to just carry a £20. If they were caught they'd pay the PF in cash. So long as they only got caught once a week or less they were winning.

There is a fairly reasonable argument to say that you should just set the PF level and inspection frequency to be such that people choosing to pay that way would pay the same or more overall and to stop worrying about it.

The old dodge for that used to be to carry around an unscratched Saveaway and scratch it off when you see an inspector. I do wonder if the possibility for doing that with an e-ticket is one reason they seem to be scared of the idea of accepting them.

 

[dosxuk]

I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling to be honest, that can be the only logical explanation.

This thread needs reading along with the context of the OP being penalty fared after buying a ticket in front of an RPI - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-issues.264984/post-6697942 - ticket purchased 2 minutes before the PF was issued, 14 minutes after the OP left the station they boarded at.

 

[The exile]

Probably.


I think it'd be a better idea to target the reason for fare evasion. The majority of fare evasion is due to fares being so disproportionately high compared to similar countries. If we had a way to reduce spending to improve pricing, we wouldn't need to crack down so hard.

I suspect the level of fare evasion is similar in many of those “similar” countries. Far simpler for the authorities to deal with in jurisdictions where carrying ID is a legal requirement. If you don’t like our RPI teams you should see some German or (I think) Polish ones.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Many of the penalty fare schemes cover areas which are purely DOO like on Thameslink and Great Northern, there are no guards to check or sell tickets but instead roving RPIs. So should everybody travel free unless RPIs board the train? RPIs already have discretion to sell tickets if there is a genuine reason why somebody wasn't able to buy before boarding. It's never been easier to buy a ticket with e tickets and modern Tvms.

 

[Krokodil]

This thread needs reading along with the context of the OP being penalty fared after buying a ticket in front of an RPI - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-issues.264984/post-6697942 - ticket purchased 2 minutes before the PF was issued, 14 minutes after the OP left the station they boarded at.

Ah. All becomes clear.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling to be honest, that can be the only logical explanation.

There is another reason and if you look at their previous posts you will see what it is, i.e. they got issued a PF for paying when challenged and are extremely unhappy about it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It's never been easier to buy a ticket with e tickets and modern Tvms.

Really? Have you ever tried buying a walk-up ticket using one of Avanti's journey planner TVMs?

 

[Zomboid]

Genuine mistakes happen, but that doesn't mean you should "get away" with them. One upon a time (c2000) when I lived in London I had a local travel card and was used to jumping on the tube and buses as and when I needed, so when I hopped onto a train to Southampton (during disruption as well, which just put more noise into my head...) the thought that this time I'd need to buy something else just didn't cross my mind.

I think the guard sold me a full price single, which would have probably been more expensive than the penalty fare at the time. Haven't made that mistake since.

It's the same as when I was caught doing 38 in what I would have sworn was a 40, but turned out not to be... Just take the slap on the wrist and don't make that mistake again.

 

[Krokodil]

I think the guard sold me a full price single, which would have probably been more expensive than the penalty fare at the time.

Wouldn't the penalty fare have been twice the single?

 

[Zomboid]

Wouldn't the penalty fare have been twice the single?

Might have been, it was a long time ago.

 

[saismee]

I suspect the level of fare evasion is similar in many of those “similar” countries. Far simpler for the authorities to deal with in jurisdictions where carrying ID is a legal requirement. If you don’t like our RPI teams you should see some German or (I think) Polish ones.

Can't say I dislike our revenue protection, most of them are friendly and they're certainly much braver than I am! Proper identification would likely reduce costs a little bit, especially in those "it wasn't even me" cases.

This thread needs reading along with the context of the OP being penalty fared after buying a ticket in front of an RPI - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-issues.264984/post-6697942 - ticket purchased 2 minutes before the PF was issued, 14 minutes after the OP left the station they boarded at.

Very good context. Instead of "innocent people shouldn't be punished so harshly" it now reads as "I got caught attempting to fare evade and now I want to complain/justify my actions"... I think this thread should probably be locked as OP isn't offering any real solutions/ideas, just suggesting that fare evasion should be easier.

 

[The exile]

Can't say I dislike our revenue protection, most of them are friendly and they're certainly much braver than I am! Proper identification would likely reduce costs a little bit, especially in those "it wasn't even me" cases

It means 1) details taken 2) offender given transfer form with which to pay the penalty (or whatever the digital equivalent is) 3) offence recorded on database. Second offence (or third if you’re lucky) you’re in court. No ID - I’ve seen the police remove someone from a tram to be held until her ID could be brought to the police station. How she got it there was her responsibility.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It means 1) details taken 2) offender given transfer form with which to pay the penalty (or whatever the digital equivalent is) 3) offence recorded on database. Second offence (or third if you’re lucky) you’re in court.

Any stepped process currently breaks down on the multitude of train companies. I live in Merseyside and work in Manchester, so I have a choice of 3 different companies for my trip - so should I get the chance to use TPE until I'm caught, then EMT and then Northern before I risk being penalised? That's hardly fair on anyone whose journey can only be made by one company.

(And for the avoidance of doubt - no, I'm not fare dodging between home and work. The above is hypothetical to make the point).

 

[The exile]

Any stepped process currently breaks down on the multitude of train companies. I live in Merseyside and work in Manchester, so I have a choice of 3 different companies for my trip - so should I get the chance to use TPE until I'm caught, then EMT and then Northern before I risk being penalised? That's hardly fair on anyone whose journey can only be made by one company.

(And for the avoidance of doubt - no, I'm not fare dodging between home and work. The above is hypothetical to make the point).

Come GBR that problem is reduced to the open access operators “plus”. Imagine if it can be done at all, then there’s no legal objection to Merseyrail and TfW opting in (even Translink?) Scotrail is of course in a separate jurisdiction.

 

[RPI]

Back in the days of £20 penalty fares, the scallies on Merseyrail used to just carry a £20. If they were caught they'd pay the PF in cash. So long as they only got caught once a week or less they were winning.

I remember well when it was £20 and people used to just do that, we also got less grief with it going up to £50+The fare that died down a bit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

This thread needs reading along with the context of the OP being penalty fared after buying a ticket in front of an RPI - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-issues.264984/post-6697942 - ticket purchased 2 minutes before the PF was issued, 14 minutes after the OP left the station they boarded at.

I knew there was some sort of underlying theme to this.

 

[thw6]

That’s insane, so all regular fare evaders have to do is wait until they are challenged then say I forgot to buy a ticket. If they are travelling 5 days a week and only get ticket checked once because of busy train etc.. then they are laughing. As for railcards if it has expired a year ago should we not recoup that money from all the discounted tickets that they have purchased. You have to remember that not everyone is honest in this world and it is not always just a mistake.

If a railcard has expired then imo a railcard should be purchased but backdated for however long journeys were without the railcard so you may need to purchase a number of years worth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

This thread needs reading along with the context of the OP being penalty fared after buying a ticket in front of an RPI - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-issues.264984/post-6697942 - ticket purchased 2 minutes before the PF was issued, 14 minutes after the OP left the station they boarded at.

In that incident I did pay the penalty but imo SWR were profiteering and it’s those kind of incidents that penalty fares need to be abolished for as an attempt has been made to buy a ticket. If people didn’t and tried to hide in the toilets or attack staff then those penalty fares/prosecutions should be increased

 

[Bertie the bus]

In that incident I did pay the penalty but imo SWR were profiteering and it’s those kind of incidents that penalty fares need to be abolished for as an attempt has been made to buy a ticket. If people didn’t and tried to hide in the toilets or attack staff then those penalty fares/prosecutions should be increased

I was waiting for that. "Fare dodgers are the sort of people I look down on. Not the likes of me as paying is optional because I'm special".

 

[phoenix743]

If a railcard has expired then imo a railcard should be purchased but backdated for however long journeys were without the railcard so you may need to purchase a number of years worth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==


In that incident I did pay the penalty but imo SWR were profiteering and it’s those kind of incidents that penalty fares need to be abolished for as an attempt has been made to buy a ticket. If people didn’t and tried to hide in the toilets or attack staff then those penalty fares/prosecutions should be increased

Again fare evaders will think I won’t bother buying a railcard until I get caught using one I don’t have. Asking them just to buy a railcard is crazy what if they have purchased paper tickets for a year and you can’t find out how many journeys they have made with your method that means they pay just £35 and may owe hundreds of pounds of fares.

 

[thw6]

I was waiting for that. "Fare dodgers are the sort of people I look down on. Not the likes of me as paying is optional because I'm special".

Where have I said it’s optional? I don’t condone fare dodging but people getting on the train without paying but do pay at some point before leaving the end station is different to those who again are hiding in the toilets/barging through barriers or abusing/assaulting staff do you agree?