Paid for a ticket on trainline, wouldn't show the E-ticket on my app and was fined.

[Ultralateral]

Hi,

I was wondering whether, if it went to court, i would be able to avoid paying a penalty fare for a ticket i paid for (with evidence, receipt and booking reference) but wouldn't show up on my phone when the guard asked to scan it.

I was led to believe that I would be contacted about it after showing him these documents and my railcard at which point I could appeal. He was very reassuring and I was taken by surprise when a few weeks later I recieved a letter saying I had to pay 190 pounds for not paying a penalty fare.

I tried to appeal it through the regular appeals submission website but this was repeatedly declined as I submitted the appeals outside of 21 days I believe after the fare was issued (which I do not remember and I certainly would have if I had known I might have to pay this much.

many thanks,

Arthur

 

[jfollows]

The offence is of being unable to show a ticket when required to do so, so your appeal will probably fail. The problem is, you could have given the ticket to someone else - I’m not saying you did - so showing later that you had a ticket isn’t enough.

Also often people who issue Penalty Fares say things like “appeal and you’ll be let off” to avoid confrontation at the time.

 

[Ultralateral]

The offence is of being unable to show a ticket when required to do so, so your appeal will probably fail. The problem is, you could have given the ticket to someone else - I’m not saying you did - so showing later that you had a ticket isn’t enough.

Also often people who issue Penalty Fares say things like “appeal and you’ll be let off” to avoid confrontation at the time.

I mean it was on my railcard with my photo ID attatched, I showed the ticket and railcard when asked. I find it hard to believe that since also the ticket wasn't 'claimed' and because it's associated with my name and railcard that i could have done that. Also I was wondering if i'm taken to court what the proceedings would be. This is SWR also.

I would just like to know if I should pay the large fine or whether I should take it to court, and If so I assume I should talk to a lawyer.

 

[jfollows]

Your thread title says “wouldn’t show the E-ticket “ so am I correct in assuming that you were asked for your ticket but couldn’t show it to the person asking for it?

Or something else? Please be absolutely clear.

However, no, it is unlikely you need a solicitor. It will cost you much more than the Penalty Fare, even without early payment discount.

But your story is lacking in important details! Like what happened, when and why.

 

[Ultralateral]

Your thread title says “wouldn’t show the E-ticket “ so am I correct in assuming that you were asked for your ticket but couldn’t show it to the person asking for it?

Or something else? Please be absolutely clear.

However, no, it is unlikely you need a solicitor. It will cost you much more than the Penalty Fare, even without early payment discount.

I assumed Trainline would add the bar code/ E-ticket to my wallet as usual however, it didn't. I think I might have been able to print the ticket at the station but I didn't, as I thought i would have the ticket within the app.

Also I have used trainline on the same line and others and it has worked before.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s going to help for you to be really clear about what happened.

Where were you travelling from and to?
When was this? Date and time.
Exactly which train were you caught on?
Do you have an e-ticket or was your ticket to be printed out and carried?
Did you receive any paperwork at the time?
What paperwork have you received now? (Please show us the letter with your details redacted)

 

[Ultralateral]

It’s going to help for you to be really clear about what happened.

Where were you travelling from and to?
When was this? Date and time.
Exactly which train were you caught on?
Do you have an e-ticket or was your ticket to be printed out and carried?
Did you receive any paperwork at the time?
What paperwork have you received now? (Please show us the letter with your details redacted)

Wareham to London Waterloo, Friday 25th April 7:27-9:53 train

I was on the correct train for the ticket I purchased.

I think I was supposed to print out my ticket at the station as I did not have an e-ticket

I don't remember recieving any paperwork at the time although on the appeal website there was a photo of a penalty fare notice which I don't think I was ever shown/given and I have checked anywhere and everywhere that I would have put it if I was given it. Also in the photo it doesn't look like my hand holding the penalty fare ticket. The problem is it was so long ago and so early in the morning that I don't remember exactly.

I received a letter dated 19th May saying I owe £180.90 due to not paying the original penalty fare. (when the guard gave talked to me he was very reassuring and asked for my details and said that I might be contacted about it later, I was not and this was the first communication I recieved.) I proceeded to try to appeal this through every avenue possible but it was flatly denied even with all of the documents I included showing I had purchased my ticket and had my railcard, as the appeals were outside the window you are allowed to appeal. If I was made fully aware I had to appeal within a certain time to avoid paying the original fine I would have done it immediately.

The trainline (and im assuming the debt collection/appeals service) seems to be separate entities with the appeals website having no email phone or other contact details.

The letter confirms the date and time of the train matching the ticket. Also it says I may be prosecuted if I do not pay and face a fine up to 1000 pounds and may have my credit rating affected.


Since then, as I have said I appealed twice and both were denied without review as they were outside the window for appeal which I was not notified of.

 

[dosxuk]

I was wondering whether, if it went to court, i would be able to avoid paying a penalty fare for a ticket i paid for (with evidence, receipt and booking reference) but wouldn't show up on my phone when the guard asked to scan it.

If it goes to court, barring any exceptional procedural issues, you will be found guilty - and be fined, have to pay costs to the operator and get a criminal record. The charges that are laid before the court in these types of cases require no intent to be proved, and are therefore very simple to prosecute - you yourself even admit here that you couldn't show the ticket when asked. The courts will be uninterested in whether you had bought or paid for a ticket, they will only be interested in whether you did show said ticket when you were asked.

 

[AlterEgo]

It sounds like you weren’t penalty fared but rather reported for prosecution. Please upload the letter you’ve received with your details removed.

 

[furlong]

Assuming you can prove the correct fare was paid in advance, and your error was entirely administrative/technical, you should write directly to SWR setting out the full circumstances and inviting them to close the matter

If the company proceeds regardless, you should try again, referencing the recent ORR report, paragraph 5.74

In January 2025, Transport Focus made a series of recommendations relating to revenue protection to improve the passenger experience. Among these was a recommendation that there should be no penalties in “no net loss to industry situations”. Our view is that any assessment of the public interest in prosecuting suspected fare evaders should consider whether any harm, i.e. loss to the industry, has occurred. If there is no evidence of loss to the industry, it is unlikely that a prosecution will be in the public interest.

 

[Adam Williams]

wouldn't show up on my phone when the guard asked to scan it.

This is very different to "it was fulfilled to Ticket-on-Departure (ToD) and I didn't pay attention during the booking process". The initial explanation implied a bug or technical issue in the retailer's app, when in reality it sounds like it was never sold as a barcode ticket in the first place.

 

[Ultralateral]

If it goes to court, barring any exceptional procedural issues, you will be found guilty - and be fined, have to pay costs to the operator and get a criminal record. The charges that are laid before the court in these types of cases require no intent to be proved, and are therefore very simple to prosecute - you yourself even admit here that you couldn't show the ticket when asked. The courts will be uninterested in whether you had bought or paid for a ticket, they will only be interested in whether you did show said ticket when you were asked.

Is there no requirement to show that I caused damages to the operator in any way or that I did this intentionally (which I did not)? How can they prosecute me when I was acting entirely in good faith and was given no opportunity to even try to access my ticket when i couldn't do so immediately when asked. (I mean immediately, the guard didn't even give me five minutes to try to get my ticket on my phone.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

This is very different to "it was fulfilled to Ticket-on-Departure (ToD) and I didn't pay attention during the booking process". The initial explanation implied a bug or technical issue in the retailer's app, when in reality it sounds like it was never sold as a barcode ticket in the first place.

I don't understand why it didn't as thats how I have always recieved my ticket previously.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there no requirement to show that I caused damages to the operator in any way or that I did this intentionally (which I did not)?

No. It is a strict liability offence like speeding. No intent need be proven nor any harm need be proven.

How can they prosecute me when I was acting entirely in good faith and was given no opportunity to even try to access my ticket when i couldn't do so immediately when asked. (I mean immediately, the guard didn't even give me five minutes to try to get my ticket on my phone.)

Because you couldn't - it was supposed to have been printed. You'd never have been able to show the ticket on your phone, only a booking confirmation.

 

[Adam Williams]

I don't understand why it didn't as thats how I have always recieved my ticket previously.

Are you able to share your booking confirmation email with the ticket breakdown on it? It's perhaps slightly academic now, but we can probably work out why it was set-up to not be E-Ticketable

 

[Ultralateral]

So im basically F'ed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

Assuming you can prove the correct fare was paid in advance, and your error was entirely administrative/technical, you should write directly to SWR setting out the full circumstances and inviting them to close the matter

If the company proceeds regardless, you should try again, referencing the recent ORR report, paragraph 5.74

These are 'reccomendations' do you think it's likeley they will be observed?

 

[RPI]

When you arrived at you destination, did you then retrieve your tickets from a ticket machine or from the booking office?

 

[furlong]

That says the ticket was supposed to be collected before departure. An easy mistake to make. it's a cross-London ticket.

 

[30907]

Thanks for showing us your ticket collection reference.

The most common reason for tickets needing to be collected is that they allow travel on London Underground services, and TfL insist on these - so Wareham to London Zone 1 or basically any destination beyond Waterloo.

 

[Ultralateral]

When you arrived at you destination, did you then retrieve your tickets from a ticket machine or from the booking office?

I did and I have them

When you arrived at you destination, did you then retrieve your tickets from a ticket machine or from the booking office?

 

[furlong]

How did you continue on your journey? How did you cross London and were you asked for your ticket again on the later part of your journey?

 

[Ultralateral]

How did you continue on your journey? How did you cross London and were you asked for your ticket again on the later part of your journey?

I assume so as the london to lancaster portion has been signed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

Thanks for showing us your ticket collection reference.

The most common reason for tickets needing to be collected is that they allow travel on London Underground services, and TfL insist on these - so Wareham to London Zone 1 or basically any destination beyond Waterloo.

Sorry for the terrible formatting, I just exported it as a txt document

 

[AlterEgo]

I assume so as the london to lancaster portion has been signed.

So you did collect the ticket - do you still have it?

I'd supply proof of it to the company and respectfully ask that the matter be closed, then. If you can confirm this we can help you draft a letter.

 

[Ultralateral]

So you did collect the ticket - do you still have it?

I'd supply proof of it to the company and respectfully ask that the matter be closed, then. If you can confirm this we can help you draft a letter.

Yes, I have found them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

here

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

So you did collect the ticket - do you still have it?

I'd supply proof of it to the company and respectfully ask that the matter be closed, then. If you can confirm this we can help you draft a letter.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you follow advice here you may be able to get your loss reduced etc

But imho do not let this get to court if there is any way to avoid doing so, unless you have some experience of court or want to pay £700+ to a solicitor in fees alone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

If you are to get this sorted you will need to follow advice from here very closely at every step from this point. It’s bad luck you didn’t find this forum right back when this started so you could weigh up the options before things got to where they are now.

 

[Ultralateral]

If you follow advice here you may be able to get your loss reduced etc

But imho do not let this get to court if there is any way to avoid doing so, unless you have some experience of court or want to pay £700+ to a solicitor in fees alone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

If you are to get this sorted you will need to follow advice from here very closely at every step from this point. It’s bad luck you didn’t find this forum right back when this started so you could weigh up the options before things got to where they are now.

Yeah, I have already looked into a lot of transport focus's material as well as potential court proceedings including a formal request for information of the cctv of when i was issued the notice since I don't think I have the original penalty fare notice receipt and I would like to know if I was in fact given one and the guard followed the procedure correctly. I also do not recall him explicitly stating the amount to pay which is required in their policy. I was hoping the AlterEgo guy could help me with the letter he was talking about, im assuming I need to email SWR directly and argue that my situation is a "no net loss to industry situation" with all the documentation of the purchase of the tickets and the tickets themselves as well as any relevant context.


I feel like according to transportfocus's guidelines I would be fine but i'm not sure if they hold any weight legally speaking.

SWR do seem to like to settle out of court if they do prosecute however.

 

[enyoueffsea]

It’d be really helpful to see the letter you have received requesting payment, with your details redacted of course.

It sounds like you weren’t penalty fared but rather reported for prosecution. Please upload the letter you’ve received with your details removed.

I thought this, but what makes me doubt it is the OP suggesting they appealed multiple times (all rejected due to being out of time). This is consistent with a penalty fare rather than report for prosecution.

 

[RPI]

As the tickets were actually collected (so can't have been refunded) then it may be worth an appeal, technically you didn't have a valid ticket when requested though.

 

[WesternLancer]

As the tickets were actually collected (so can't have been refunded) then it may be worth an appeal, technically you didn't have a valid ticket when requested though.

Yes. I tend to agree with that thinking.

But I think the op needs to understand that this now won’t be an ‘appeal’ in the sense of the penalty fare appeal process but a communication to the railway company concerned prosecution department asking for them to show leniency on this.

I’m assuming the op made formal appeals which were rejected as made out of time if nothing else then failed to pay the penalty fare and it’s escalated.

 

[Ultralateral]

It’d be really helpful to see the letter you have received requesting payment, with your details redacted of course.



I thought this, but what makes me doubt it is the OP suggesting they appealed multiple times (all rejected due to being out of time). This is consistent with a penalty fare rather than report for prosecution.

Yes it was definitely a penalty fare notice however, they threaten prosecution if not paid on time.

 

[Puffing Devil]

So im basically F'ed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==


These are 'reccomendations' do you think it's likeley they will be observed?

Your name is showing on the email - take it down.

I think everyone knows it's a collection code email for the ticket to be picked up before travel.