Ticketing sites offering TFW "Clwb 60" advances without checking entitlement

[SWML9102]

Been looking up prices for an upcoming journey and both the forum site and Trainsplit were including Clwb 60 tickets in their offering. Whilst these are good value, giving 50% off advance fares, they are only for over 60s. Had I not checked exactly what tickets were being offered I could easily have purchased in ignorance that I was not entitled to them - as I am not over 60. Is this a glitch? Needs sorting or there will be accounts of innocent travellers being pulled up for invalid tickets on the disputes forum before long!

 

[Benjwri]

I fail to see how this is any different to someone selecting a railcard? It’s common sense that you don’t just select a discount you’re not entitled to…

 

[htwestern]

I fail to see how this is any different to someone selecting a railcard? It’s common sense that you don’t just select a discount you’re not entitled to…

The difference is that someone selecting a railcard ticket will have consciously selected it during the search process. Here it seems like they’re being mixed in with the public discount tickets, where someone hasn’t searched for any discount and wouldn’t expect any restricted tickets.

 

[mikeg]

The difference is that someone selecting a railcard ticket will have consciously selected it during the search process. Here it seems like they’re being mixed in with the public discount tickets, where someone hasn’t searched for any discount and wouldn’t expect any restricted tickets.

Agreed, someone will likely be offered these by TrainSplit as part of a split, without asking and without fully understanding. In addition, it appears there's no way to block them from being offered, leading to a negative experience with the site (or indeed any others). This really shouldn't be allowed as they're probably planning to extract out of court settlements from people who use them. Nice little earner then.

 

[alistairlees]

TfW renamed one of their Advances as "Clwb 60", without doing anything else in the data. So this is the outcome.

 

[Benjwri]

The difference is that someone selecting a railcard ticket will have consciously selected it during the search process. Here it seems like they’re being mixed in with the public discount tickets, where someone hasn’t searched for any discount and wouldn’t expect any restricted tickets.

Ah I misunderstood what you were asking, I thought you meant that it was being offered in the railcard dropdown, I agree that is poor.

 

[SWML9102]

Absolutely this, no Railcard discount selected. And no warning that the tickets are only valid for over 60s. In fact even if you checked (as I did) exactly what tickets are being offered, you might just think "Clwb 60" is just a brand, not a restriction.

 

[htwestern]

What would the outcome be if someone used these tickets whilst ineligible? New ticket/Excess/PF/prosecution? Are these unregulated fares actually backed up be enforceable restrictions?

 

[ac6000cw]

What's the 'proof of age' requirement for them (when they are checked)?

 

[Haywain]

Are these unregulated fares actually backed up be enforceable restrictions?

An unregulated fare, and there are huge numbers of them, can still have restrictions which are enforceable.

What would the outcome be if someone used these tickets whilst ineligible? New ticket/Excess/PF/prosecution?

I would argue that none of these would be applicable if no effort has been made to restrict sales of these tickets. An excess fare certainly wouldn’t be applicable for a ticket which has not had a discount applied (and indicated).

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Been looking up prices for an upcoming journey and both the forum site and Trainsplit were including Clwb 60 tickets in their offering. Whilst these are good value, giving 50% off advance fares, they are only for over 60s. Had I not checked exactly what tickets were being offered I could easily have purchased in ignorance that I was not entitled to them - as I am not over 60. Is this a glitch? Needs sorting or there will be accounts of innocent travellers being pulled up for invalid tickets on the disputes forum before long!

Have you let TfW know about this?

 

[Benjwri]

Certainly if one of these tickets was sold to a customer there is no pre purchase information on such restrictions, so the retailer, and then likely the railway, would be liable for any excess or penalty fare under the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[SWML9102]

Have you let TfW know about this?

No. I assumed it was an issue with the ticketing sites. Would you suggest an email to customer relations?

 

[ac6000cw]

What's the 'proof of age' requirement for them (when they are checked)?

To answer my own question - TfW don't say... (just 'Proof of age may be required')

From https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/savings-and-offers/clwb-60 :

Terms and conditions​

Tickets are subject to availability. Selected routes only.

Offer for ages 60+. Proof of age may be required.

Tickets must be purchased at least 3 days before travel.

Clwb 60 Sale prices and discount stated are valid only to purchase Standard Advance tickets between the sale period of 17th-23rd June 2025, for journeys on selected Transport for Wales train services made between 20th June and 15th July 2025.

Railcard discounts apply.

 

[Vexed]

I'm not seeing this, I've searched for Cardiff Central to Swansea on 25 June. TfW's own site will only sell me a "Advance CLWB 60 (Standard)" and Thameslink's site the same fare (£4.20) but calling it "Standard APOD Promo" for some reason, it's clearly not an Advance Purchase On the Day.

While TrainSplit is selling a slightly more expensive normal advance ticket, £6.60.

Someone's messed up a bit here... They haven't even made it half price like it's supposed to be!

 

[Tom]

We saw this yesterday on RTT and I believe TrainSplit banned sales of these Advances overnight.

 

[SWML9102]

We saw this yesterday on RTT and I believe TrainSplit banned sales of these Advances overnight.

I was seeing them Tuesday evening on Trainsplit (Cardiff - Cheltenham). Seem to be gone now.

 

[talldave]

Have you let TfW know about this?

Maybe tell them age discrimination is illegal?

 

[Haywain]

Maybe tell them age discrimination is illegal?

Which it clearly isn't, otherwise Senior Railcards, 16-25 Railcards etc wouldn't exist.

 

[Lewisham2221]

This really shouldn't be allowed as they're probably planning to extract out of court settlements from people who use them. Nice little earner then.

You might want to consider adding some extra layers of tin foil to your hat...

There is no conspiracy. Obviously.

What's the 'proof of age' requirement for them (when they are checked)?

Passport, driving licence or concessionary bus pass.

Have you let TfW know about this?

TfW are aware.

Maybe tell them age discrimination is illegal?

It is, in fact, still perfectly legal to offer age related discounts. There's a bunch of other exemptions too. You might want to read this government guidance document:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a78a125e5274a2acd1888fe/age-discrimination-ban.pdf

Age discrimination ban: Myth busters
The age discrimination ban will force insurance companies to provide cover for
all age groups
No. Financial service providers will not be forced to participate in sectors in which they have no
experience, and they can continue to use age limits and age bands.
The NHS can no longer restrict screening to certain age groups
No. The NHS will still be able to target screening programmes at certain age groups, provided that
this is supported by statistical evidence to show that these groups are more at risk.
Saga and Club18-30 can no longer only sell holidays to certain age groups
No. They will be able to provide group holidays to certain age groups where age is a key element of
the product they sell and this is appropriately advertised.
Shops can no longer give pensioner discounts
No. There is an exception for age based discounts so retailers will be able to continue to offer age
based discounts if they wish.
A golf club can no longer offer an age-based discount to its senior or
junior members
No. Clubs will be able to continue to offer concessions and discounts to members based on their age.
The legislation abolishes the age limits for juries
No. The age limits for jury service are stated in legislation, thus these age limits will continue.

 

[CyrusWuff]

TfW renamed one of their Advances as "Clwb 60", without doing anything else in the data. So this is the outcome.

And created a new page for it on NRE: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/nfp/

Description

Advance Clwb 60 tickets are single (one-way) tickets for many longer and some shorter distance journeys, are available in Standard class and offer the best available price for each journey.

Tickets must be booked in advance of travel and are subject to availability.

Advance tickets are valid only on the specific booked train but can be changed before departure of the first reserved service.

This is an age ID validated discounted Advance fare which is open to anyone aged 60 or over when travelling on TfW services. Passengers will need to provide proof of age, this can come in the form of a passport, driving license or Concessionary pass...

Not that most people will read that when buying a ticket, of course. They'll just see a ticket at a price they're willing to pay and buy it.

 

[styles]

Maybe tell them age discrimination is illegal?

Not all discrimination is unlawful discrimination.

If you couldn't ever offer a different price or service based on age you wouldn't be able to have:

• 16-25, 26-30, Senior Railcards, or ScotRail's Club 50 Railcard;
• 'Kids Eat Free' offers at restaurants
• Vue Cinemas' Senior Screenings (which includes free tea and biscuits!)
• Senior concessions at museums
• Over-18s only cruises
• etc

 

[mikeg]

You might want to consider adding some extra layers of tin foil to your hat...

There is no conspiracy. Obviously.

Whether or not they set out to do this, this is what will probably happen and they won't care about any 'excuses'. The net effect is the same.

 

[Benjwri]

Whether or not they set out to do this, this is what will probably happen and they won't care about any 'excuses'. The net effect is the same.

You’re making a bold assumption that their staff will notice, are they even able to set revenue devices and gatelines to flag a specific advance type, and will they bother?

 

[The exile]

You’re making a bold assumption that their staff will notice, are they even able to set revenue devices and gatelines to flag a specific advance type, and will they bother?

Reminds me of how put out I was on the first weekend I was eligible for Northern’s over-55 northwest ranger and I wasn’t asked to prove my age once!

 

[AdamWW]

And created a new page for it on NRE: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/nfp/

Not that most people will read that when buying a ticket, of course. They'll just see a ticket at a price they're willing to pay and buy it.

In the app, if you choose "show details" for the ticket, it gives the restriction code as AC (with link) and gives a link to the "NFP" page as "additional information". So not particularly obvious to me that the additional information is actually additional restrictions. (Though I appreciate that the restriction code probably isn't the right place for an age restriction).

Personally I think they could have done better.

(Especially as on my phone, the pages linked to don't actually show).

One doesn't normally have to go digging around in additional information to find out that having asked for an adult ticket with no discounts, that's not what you're being offered.

It reminds me of the when is an anytime ticket not an anytime issue with railcards.

The restriction code is that of a regular advance with no mention of age restriction but even though it has "advance" in the name it's actually a different ticket type so one must look up the rules for that ticket type.

It also seems a bit mean to offer 50% off advance fares for those over 60 and no advance fares at all for anyone else.

 

[Adam Williams]

And created a new page for it on NRE: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/nfp/

Not that most people will read that when buying a ticket, of course. They'll just see a ticket at a price they're willing to pay and buy it.

Personally I think they could have done better.

It's not remotely good enough, and this is exactly why Raileasy are no longer retailing it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 14:12 ==

calling it "Standard APOD Promo" for some reason, it's clearly not an Advance Purchase On the Day

This was the name of the ticket prior to it being renamed/drastically repurposed, as @alistairlees explained. So it would suggest GTR (OTRL?) were using an older version of the IDMS data at the time you checked.

I believe there was an email sent out about this (with less than a week's notice, mind you) but a) the restrictions on who could/couldn't use the tickets was not set out in the PAF in any detail at all, and b) the nature of the change (shoehorning it into an existing product/ticket type) was not set out in the email subject or body, only within an attachment (and 5 pages in, to boot).

 

[talldave]

Not all discrimination is unlawful discrimination.

If you couldn't ever offer a different price or service based on age you wouldn't be able to have:

• 16-25, 26-30, Senior Railcards, or ScotRail's Club 50 Railcard;
• 'Kids Eat Free' offers at restaurants
• Vue Cinemas' Senior Screenings (which includes free tea and biscuits!)
• Senior concessions at museums
• Over-18s only cruises
• etc

I think my cynicism was getting at the point that the tickets were being sold to anyone without the need for a "railcard"/proof of age, but no doubt they would have been happy to take only people 59 and under to court.

 

[AdamWW]

For the service I looked at, they were only offering the Clwb 60 ticket.

If that's generally true, does anyone know if it's because they have chosen not to offer other advances, or if it's because the way they've implemented it has prevented advances at higher prices from being shown?

 

[Adam Williams]

For the service I looked at, they were only offering the Clwb 60 ticket.

If that's generally true, does anyone know if it's because they have chosen not to offer other advances, or if it's because the way they've implemented it has prevented advances at higher prices from being shown?

Retailers won't usually surface higher-priced Advance tiers (some do, but not many) that are deemed to be identical to others. They are pointless and a waste of money.

However, technically it's often possible to buy more expensive tickets even when there is a cheaper Advance.