The later days of Southeastern slam door stock.

[The exile]

The same goes for more modern trains. 150's and 159's were only about five years apart, but the 150s are much more dated.

And to strengthen my point, when the 150/0s (001 and 002) were refurbished I overheard comments about “these brand new trains” being so much nicer than the old ones. “The old ones” most likely being other 150s, 158s or Turbos (OK - possibly HSTs as well - but they were the only things older on offer!)

 

[yorksrob]

And to strengthen my point, when the 150/0s (001 and 002) were refurbished I overheard comments about “these brand new trains” being so much nicer than the old ones. “The old ones” most likely being other 150s, 158s or Turbos (OK - possibly HSTs as well - but they were the only things older on offer!)

Following this theme, I have family members who thought the refurbished CEP's were newer than the VEP's, in spite of being 10-15 years older. Needless to say, I preferred the VEP's.

 

[The exile]

Following this theme, I have family members who thought the refurbished CEP's were newer than the VEP's, in spite of being 10-15 years older. Needless to say, I preferred the VEP's.

Give me a CEP any day…

 

[yorksrob]

Give me a CEP any day…

Hard seats and too much lurid formica !

I prefer the pastel hues and softer cushionings of the VEP !

 

[Sun Chariot]

My only gripe with "all door" slammers - the ones with a door to each seating bay - was the near constant knee knocking as people pushed past occupied seats, to enter or leave the train.

 

[bramling]

I'm guilty of many "early disembarking" exploits - and my protocol was:
1) check platform space is clear of people or obstruction.
2) open door fully and ensure it doesn't try to swing back (thus ensuring I and fellow disembarkers aren't hit by it).
3) leap out at a diagonal direction, to avoid being hit by adjacent doors.
4) get legs ready to jog/run as soon as feet connect with platform.

It was a good exercise in self-awareness, something many people nowadays are a bit too gormless to be able to achieve. There were times when it went wrong though!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2025 ==

Give me a CEP any day…

VEP or CIG for me. Sadly I never experienced the CEPs before refurbishment, however post-refurb I wasn’t keen on the ambience. Way too harsh, albeit comfortable.

The less extensive refurbishment on the VEP and CIG fleets was much preferable IMO. I always really enjoyed travelling on VEPs, albeit with the caveat that I never had to commute on them, which might have given a different perspective.

 

[D6130]

Indeed, although I suppose even then, 50% of the REP's were refurbed 1950's steam stock !

To me, growing up in CEP territory, the unit ends of the CIG's, VEP's, REP's looked much more smart and modern.

IMHO, the refurbished CIGs and VEPs were preferable to the refurbished CEPs, which still had the appallingly rough-riding original motor bogies. The seven refurbished BEPs - for the Portsmouth Direct Line - were fitted with ex-REP motor bogies which had a marginally-better ride.....but the stark yellow and white buffet car interiors didn't have anything like the cosy ambience of the BIG buffets that they had replaced.

 

[The exile]

VEP or CIG for me. Sadly I never experienced the CEPs before refurbishment, however post-refurb I wasn’t keen on the ambience. Way too harsh, albeit comfortable.

The less extensive refurbishment on the VEP and CIG fleets was much preferable IMO. I always really enjoyed travelling on VEPs, albeit with the caveat that I never had to commute on them, which might have given a different perspective.

I suspect it was the fact that Central division CIGs and VEPs quickly lost their appeal and the SE division was always a bit “here be dragons” to me. Not sure I ever experienced an unrefurbished CEP either- the earliest one I know about was on the Folkestone Harbour boat train in March 1980 - but it was 1500.

 

[yorksrob]

IMHO, the refurbished CIGs and VEPs were preferable to the refurbished CEPs, which still had the appallingly rough-riding original motor bogies. The seven refurbished BEPs - for the Portsmouth Direct Line - were fitted with ex-REP motor bogies which had a marginally-better ride.....but the stark yellow and white buffet car interiors didn't have anything like the cosy ambience of the BIG buffets that they had replaced.

Indeed. The CIG's remained cosy and comfortable to the end. Sometimes when it comes to refreshing trains, less is more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2025 ==

I suspect it was the fact that Central division CIGs and VEPs quickly lost their appeal and the SE division was always a bit “here be dragons” to me. Not sure I ever experienced an unrefurbished CEP either- the earliest one I know about was on the Folkestone Harbour boat train in March 1980 - but it was 1500.

Maybe that the SE hsd the boat trains that were still important.

That said, we lost our buffet cars in the South East in thd early 80's, whereas the central division had them into the early nineties !

 

[danielnez1]

The fitting of hopper windows to the 411/412 (and 309s) gave them a more modern look IMHO. The CIGs would have had a similar treatment (with new Ashbourne seats) if the SuperCIG program went ahead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_438#/media/File:Refurb4TC002.jpg

 

[yorksrob]

The fitting of hopper windows to the 411/412 (and 309s) gave them a more modern look IMHO. The CIGs would have had a similar treatment (with new Ashbourne seats) if the SuperCIG program went ahead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_438#/media/File:Refurb4TC002.jpg

It would have ruined them.

 

[danielnez1]

It would have ruined them.

The Ashbourne seating would have been awful in them, perhaps the IC70 or whatever was fitted to the 309s would have been a good compromise, plus some NSE artwork on the vestibules to add some visual relief. I guess by the time the final decision came, the idea of the Networker platform came about so the SuperCIG concept was dropped.

 

[yorksrob]

The Ashbourne seating would have been awful in them, perhaps the IC70 or whatever was fitted to the 309s would have been a good compromise, plus some NSE artwork on the vestibules to add some visual relief. I guess by the time the final decision came, the idea of the Networker platform came about so the SuperCIG concept was dropped.

Even the Hopper windows weren't as good as the sliding ones. We had the IC70's in the CEP's and they weren't an improvement. I don't understand the obsession with replacing lovely comfortable seating with modern rubbish. The central division swerved a bullet there !

 

[43096]

We had the IC70's in the CEP's and they weren't an improvement.

Oh they were. The CEPs and BEPs post refurbishment were by far the best of the slam door units.

 

[contrex]

Give me a CEP any day…

Yes, much better than a "4SUB with corridors". I think the 1979 onwards Swindon refurbs made the CEPs and BEPs look more 'modern', and maybe a bit 'continental', especially the hopper windows.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, much better than a "4SUB with corridors". I think the 1979 onwards Swindon refurbs made the CEPs and BEPs look more 'modern', and maybe a bit 'continental', especially the hopper windows.

Style over substance !

Also, didn't the VEP's and CIG's have two standard class compartments whereas the refurbed CEP's only had one.

 

[D6130]

Style over substance !

Also, didn't the VEP's and CIG's have two standard class compartments whereas the refurbed CEP's only had one.

Originally the CIG/BIGs only had one second class compartment and the VEPs none. IIRC, prior to refurbishment the CEPs had eleven second class and four first class compartments per unit

 

[yorksrob]

Originally the CIG/BIGs only had one second class compartment and the VEPs none. IIRC, prior to refurbishment the CEPs had eleven second class and four first class compartments per unit

I remember as a child getting one of those compartments in an unrefurbed CEP. My parents were quite confused and thought they were first class.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I remember as a child getting one of those compartments in an unrefurbed CEP. My parents were quite confused and thought they were first class.

Rather nice standard class compartments pre refurb with reading lights and in those days curtains. Grey seating moquette as I recall.

 

[yorksrob]

Rather nice standard class compartments pre refurb with reading lights and in those days curtains. Grey seating moquette as I recall.

Psychedelic trojan !

 

[sh24]

CIG’s were by far the most comfortable, especially in winter when a VEP could be very draughty.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh they were. The CEPs and BEPs post refurbishment were by far the best of the slam door units.

Phase 1 CIG says hello - the best of the post refurb units by a country mile.

 

[nw1]

The class 312 (built until 1978) and the class 432 4-REP (the final examples built 1974) looked more dated than their ages belied.

Always find it strange that the newest 312 is newer than the oldest 313. So the newest 312s in particular had a short life, being only 25-ish years (?) old at withdrawal. If they had the necessary safety modifications presumably they could have still been with us as late as 2013 or even later.
Nonetheless I did actually manage to travel on a 312 (April 2001, Liverpool Street to Colchester, ISTR it was the 1612 departure).

I suspect it was the fact that Central division CIGs and VEPs quickly lost their appeal and the SE division was always a bit “here be dragons” to me. Not sure I ever experienced an unrefurbished CEP either- the earliest one I know about was on the Folkestone Harbour boat train in March 1980 - but it was 1500.

Being from SW-land and using the trains from 1982, I experienced unrefurbished and refurbished CIGs and VEPs, refurbished BEPs (early on, from 1983) and refurbished CEPs. The CIG and VEP refurbishments didn't seem too radical, if you know what I mean, though I was quite happy with that.

Never experienced the unrefurbished CEP at all (never saw one, let alone travel in one) and never actually travelled in an unrefurbished Phase 1 CIG, though I did see them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2025 ==

Yes, much better than a "4SUB with corridors". I think the 1979 onwards Swindon refurbs made the CEPs and BEPs look more 'modern', and maybe a bit 'continental', especially the hopper windows.

I remember travelling on a refurbished BEP (2301, i.e. the first one) in Feb 1983 and thinking naively it was actually a brand new train! Specific train was the 1116 Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo semi-fast, which was diagrammed 4BEP/4BIG + 4CIG on Saturdays despite the buffet being closed. It would have been one of the first two Saturdays in February. The BEP was on the front so I was a little startled to see the train draw in, not having the typical CIG/VEP style front.

This belief didn't last very long but nonetheless for a few days I did hold it, as it had a more "modern" interior than the CIGs and VEPs I'd been used to during the preceding months.

 

[jfollows]

I moved to London in 1981, and went on day trips to places like Hastings, CIG/BIG/CIG out and DEMU back.
I moved to Portsmouth in 1984 and it was mainly CIG/BEP/CIG with the garish refurbished BEPs but I generally used the front or back so avoided them. They were what they were, but much better than today’s trains in many ways - legroom, comfort. But it was a time when fewer people travelled by train.
I moved a bit and ended up using REP/TC serices more, they were even better. The 442 was better too, and I used them in their early days.
Now it’s more about cramming people in rather than comfort.
The mixture of units providing service in the late 1980s & early 1990s were pretty good.

 

[nw1]

I moved to London in 1981, and went on day trips to places like Hastings, CIG/BIG/CIG out and DEMU back.
I moved to Portsmouth in 1984 and it was mainly CIG/BEP/CIG with the garish refurbished BEPs but I generally used the front or back so avoided them. They were what they were, but much better than today’s trains in many ways - legroom, comfort. But it was a time when fewer people travelled by train.
I moved a bit and ended up using REP/TC serices more, they were even better. The 442 was better too, and I used them in their early days.
Now it’s more about cramming people in rather than comfort.
The mixture of units providing service in the late 1980s & early 1990s were pretty good.

The TCs and REPs were the longer-distance classes that I never sampled much. Just one occasion in fact: Brockenhurst to Woking on the Network Day this very day (I've just realised that!) in 1986.

Would agree about the units of this era, but they are what I grew up with so I'm probably very strongly positively biased towards them.

 

[yorksrob]

Never got far west enough to experience the REP-TC's. Saw the VEP with a TC driving trailer around Kent a few times, but it always seemed to be going in the wrong direction.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, much better than a "4SUB with corridors". I think the 1979 onwards Swindon refurbs made the CEPs and BEPs look more 'modern', and maybe a bit 'continental', especially the hopper windows.

I certainly thought that at the time.

In due course I came to appreciate the better overall quality of the cigs however which stood the test of time better.

 

[bramling]

I certainly thought that at the time.

In due course I came to appreciate the better overall quality of the cigs however which stood the test of time better.

The problem with the CEP refurbishment was that it was so heavily based on 1970s / early 80s trends, such as extensive use of orange and yellow, exposed fluorescent tubes, light-coloured walls etc. If you go to some of the living museums around the country one can see how this was very much the “in” decor for kitchens and even living rooms for a while, but it quickly became *very* dated.

I can remember my grandparents kitchen as it was in those days, and it bore much similarity to the refurbished CEPs. Lemon yellow Lino floor, white formica units, orange curtains and plain light-coloured walls, and of course the customary bare fluorescent strip light. Even by the 1990s it seemed pretty dated.

By contrast the VEP/CIGs didn’t lean too heavily to this, in fact they retained 1960s finishes which were a lot more neutral, and seemed to suit trains much better.

Same with the class 205 and 207s. Thankfully these were never heavily refurbished and therefore kept their older ambience to the end, whereas the sole refurbished unit was quite oppressive in the same way as the CEP refurbishment. We dodged a bullet there.

The other problems was the window seals perishing which then resulted in them misting up. The CIGs and VEPs never had this problem, though in cold weather they would steam up, but this could be resolved by opening the windows.

 

[D6130]

Phase 1 CIG says hello - the best of the post refurb units by a country mile.

I agree with you from the seat comfort and ambience point of view - although the orange curtains had been removed by then - but the motor coaches, in which I had to ride as a guard in the mid-1980s - still had the appallingly badly-riding CEP-type motor bogies, which swayed, hunted and banged all over the place. The phase 2 units - 7049 and 7337 upwards - had the much better-riding REP/class 73 motor bogies.... although not as powerful.

 

[WesternLancer]

The problem with the CEP refurbishment was that it was so heavily based on 1970s / early 80s trends, such as extensive use of orange and yellow, exposed fluorescent tubes, light-coloured walls etc. If you go to some of the living museums around the country one can see how this was very much the “in” decor for kitchens and even living rooms for a while, but it quickly became *very* dated.

I can remember my grandparents kitchen as it was in those days, and it bore much similarity to the refurbished CEPs. Lemon yellow Lino floor, white formica units, orange curtains and plain light-coloured walls, and of course the customary bare fluorescent strip light. Even by the 1990s it seemed pretty dated.

By contrast the VEP/CIGs didn’t lean too heavily to this, in fact they retained 1960s finishes which were a lot more neutral, and seemed to suit trains much better.

Same with the class 205 and 207s. Thankfully these were never heavily refurbished and therefore kept their older ambience to the end, whereas the sole refurbished unit was quite oppressive in the same way as the CEP refurbishment. We dodged a bullet there.

The other problems was the window seals perishing which then resulted in them misting up. The CIGs and VEPs never had this problem, though in cold weather they would steam up, but this could be resolved by opening the windows.

Excellent observations imho.