Should BTP be absorbed into the regular Police forces?

[Russel]

Moderator note: Split from

Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

Long time lurker here but posting for the first time. While I'm well aware of TfL's budget pressures and also the challenges of keeping trains clean, I could not believe the sorry state of the Bakerloo line train that I traveled on today. The whole interior covered in graffiti tags, not just...

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Find me any Toc that does have a functioning relationship with the BTP, they're not the easiest force to work with sometimes

Makes me think the BTP should just be absorbed into the regular Police forces...

 

[Turtle]

Makes me think the BTP should just be absorbed into the regular Police forces...

That would be a recipe for disaster. Didn't that nearly happen in Scotland? You'll always need a specific railway police due to the specialised railway environment.

 

[yorkie]

That would be a recipe for disaster...

Agreed.

...Didn't that nearly happen in Scotland? ...

Indeed; I'd forgotten about that until you reminded me!

Police Scotland to take over British Transport Police in Scotland? [Now on hold]

Not new news, but confirmation the Scot. Gov. are going to push ahead with this. The Conservatives have already said they will oppose the bill. Not sure on the stances of Labour, Greens or Lib Dems. The Scottish Government is to press ahead with plans to integrate the British Transport Police...

www.railforums.co.uk

Looks like it won't ever happen, as it never made any sense whatsoever.

83% of British Transport Police Unsupportive of Merger with Police Scotland - SCCJR

New research has found the majority (83%) of British Transport Police officers and staff in Scotland are either quite or […]

www.sccjr.ac.uk

New research has found the majority (83%) of British Transport Police officers and staff in Scotland are either quite or very unsupportive of plans to integrate their division into Police Scotland.

 

[stadler]

Moderator note: Split from

Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

Long time lurker here but posting for the first time. While I'm well aware of TfL's budget pressures and also the challenges of keeping trains clean, I could not believe the sorry state of the Bakerloo line train that I traveled on today. The whole interior covered in graffiti tags, not just...

www.railforums.co.uk

Makes me think the BTP should just be absorbed into the regular Police forces...

I agree the BTP should be abolished and policing of the railways should be handed back to the normal police. Why should the railways get their own police force. Almost no other industry gets this. There is no special bus police force. There is no special supermarket police force. Why is it that the railways get their own personal police force while every other industry does not. We could save a lot of money by abolishing them.

Also from what i hear the BTP are useless most of the time. I know a lot of railway staff and they tell me that BTP rarely even turn up when staff call them. On the rare occassion that they do turn up they normally take so long that the person causing problems is gone. So really it just seems like a pointless police force. Plus whenever i see them they are mostly standing around doing nothing. It is not a good use of police resources.

Look at Mainland Europe where many countries have no special railway police force and they manage perfectly fine. I can think of at least ten Mainland European countries that have no separate railway police. Any incidents are just dealt with by the normal police. If there is a problem on the railways then you just call the normal police like any other business does. These railways all manage perfectly fine and are no less safe than ours.

 

[renegademaster]

Why do you think the BTP will become more responsive being merged into the police forces that spend most of their time dealing with more complex issues?

BTP is not unique in being an industry specific police, theirs lots of little parks police, ports police and other little forces dotted about.

 

[Smwrff]

I cant see the need for BTP. Heathrow seems to managd just fine wighout a dedicated force and seems far more likdly candidate

 

[JamesT]

I cant see the need for BTP. Heathrow seems to managd just fine wighout a dedicated force and seems far more likdly candidate

They may not be a separate force to the same level as BTP any more, but Heathrow and Gatwick do have a specialist unit of the Met.
The other two special police forces that still exist are the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the MoD Police.

 

[renegademaster]

I cant see the need for BTP. Heathrow seems to managd just fine wighout a dedicated force and seems far more likdly candidate

Heathrow Police don't start in London and up in Manchester a few hours later

 

[Helvellyn]

The other two special police forces that still exist are the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the MoD Police.

There was consideration in the early 2010s to merging the three specialist forces plus the various private Harbour Forces, Highway Patrols, VOSA and airport units. Last proposals in 2018 were to consider creating an expanded Transport force to take on Harbours, Ports and Airports; leave Highways as is; and possibly merge the MoD/Nuclear forces as a specialist Infrastructure Force.

In short, for the OP, it seems recognised that specialist forces for transport and infrastructure have a role. If anything I therefore think you would have more chance of seeing an expanded BTP rather than a disbanded one.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There's probably more merit in creating a new National Infrastructure Police force (which has been previously proposed and shelved) - that wraps up transport, ports, power (not just nuclear), government, military installations and cyber.

You can then abolish lots of smaller forces at each port, tunnel, park etc.

Personally, I'd put taxi licensing and compliance in with that force, given the disastrous consequences of taxi drivers now shopping around for a local authority to license them, selecting the one that has the least checks, e.g. Wolverhampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main issue with doing so is needing track access training for more officers. Though perhaps one could have specialist departments that deal with that just like we have firearms departments. It would certainly be a lot easier if regular police could attend to deal with non-track-related incidents, response would be much quicker.

 

[SynthD]

What portion of BTP’s recorded actions use any of their non standard training such as track access?

Nuclear sites, airports and ports are privately owned spaces with a special government interest and the need for specific skills to police (eg scanners, sniffer dogs). Parks aren’t, which is why the Royal Parks unit was recently disbanded.

 

[Jantra]

The BTP only covers Britain, how does Northern Ireland manage, do they just use the PSNI to cover the railways?

 

[Bungle158]

They may not be a separate force to the same level as BTP any more, but Heathrow and Gatwick do have a specialist unit of the Met.
The other two special police forces that still exist are the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the MoD Police.

I believe that Sussex Police have responsibility for GatwickAirport

 

[JamesT]

I believe that Sussex Police have responsibility for GatwickAirport

My mistake, I skim-read the page. It's London City which is the other airport handled by Aviation Policing Command.

 

[skyhigh]

Also from what i hear the BTP are useless most of the time. I know a lot of railway staff and they tell me that BTP rarely even turn up when staff call them. On the rare occassion that they do turn up they normally take so long that the person causing problems is gone. So really it just seems like a pointless police force. Plus whenever i see them they are mostly standing around doing nothing. It is not a good use of police resources.

*Sigh*

This paragraph basically boils down to "BTP aren't visible, but when they are visible, they shouldn't be".

They are not just "standing around", they are providing a visible presence, usually during busy periods such as morning/evening peaks, or Friday nights etc. This means that they can respond to incidents immediately rather than hiding away in an office somewhere.

 

[berneyarms]

The BTP only covers Britain, how does Northern Ireland manage, do they just use the PSNI to cover the railways?

Yes

 

[renegademaster]

In what way will merging BTP actually help is what I've not seen articulated.

It may help the local forces with manpower but i don't see what benefits it brings the railway. If it's not broke don't fix it

 

[Falcon1200]

Makes me think the BTP should just be absorbed into the regular Police forces...

Absolutely not!

Didn't that nearly happen in Scotland?

It did, and every single body, and person (including me), who had any involvement in the operation and policing of the railways was dead against it.
Thankfully, for once, the Scottish Government actually listened to those who knew something about something.

Heathrow seems to managd just fine wighout a dedicated force an

Heathrow is a single, albeit large, location; The railway network is not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In what way will merging BTP actually help is what I've not seen articulated.

It may help the local forces with manpower but i don't see what benefits it brings the railway. If it's not broke don't fix it

The advantage would be speed of response to non-track-related railway crime which is often very slow when the BTP is based a fair way away.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The advantage would be speed of response to non-track-related railway crime which is often very slow when the BTP is based a fair way away.

The very widespread criticism of today's police force is that they do not respond at all to many cries for help and that when they do respond, it is too little and too late. Very few shop owners are pleased with the speed of response by the police when aggressive shoplifters have been reported.

Quite separately, there is today also the issue of two tier policing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 10:20 ==

Moderator note: Split from

Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

Long time lurker here but posting for the first time. While I'm well aware of TfL's budget pressures and also the challenges of keeping trains clean, I could not believe the sorry state of the Bakerloo line train that I traveled on today. The whole interior covered in graffiti tags, not just...

www.railforums.co.uk

Makes me think the BTP should just be absorbed into the regular Police forces...

It would be interesting to hear from Graham Satchwell ex BTP who has occasionally posted in this forum. Perhaps a moderator could send him an email?

 

[Indigo Soup]

There was consideration in the early 2010s to merging the three specialist forces plus the various private Harbour Forces, Highway Patrols, VOSA and airport units. Last proposals in 2018 were to consider creating an expanded Transport force to take on Harbours, Ports and Airports; leave Highways as is; and possibly merge the MoD/Nuclear forces as a specialist Infrastructure Force.

Such an organisation starts stepping in the direction of a gendarmerie - not something that Great Britain has seen, though the case can be made that the Royal Irish Constabulary followed that model - and it'd be logical to think about rolling in some of the units that have UK-wide (or England-and-Wales-wide) responsibilities.

There's probably more merit in creating a new National Infrastructure Police force (which has been previously proposed and shelved) - that wraps up transport, ports, power (not just nuclear), government, military installations and cyber.

Originally, the BTP's jurisdiction did include the entirety of London Transport (including buses) as well as British Waterways and a reasonable number of ports and harbours. A lot of that fell away with time, for various reasons.

Curiously enough, airports never seem to have been a BTP responsibility.

 

[m0ffy]

I think the better move would be to broaden the remit of BTP to cover ports, airports, and motorways. Airport/port policing is highly specialised, with a big focus on counter terrorism and trafficking. Both motorway and railway policing are long distance, cross-county affairs. None of these really fit well with the present size of territorial forces, and the port constabularies are too small to be optimally effective.

MOD Plod and CNC are more difficult as there is significant role overlap in their roles to protect Critical National Infrastructure, but significant divergence in protecting specific MOD sites.

 

[renegademaster]

What are the qualification requirements like for BTP vs Local police. BTP don't have to do a lot of social worker role that local policemen have turned into, which should make training and recruitment easier?

 

[whoosh]

Also from what i hear the BTP are useless most of the time. I know a lot of railway staff and they tell me that BTP rarely even turn up when staff call them. On the rare occassion that they do turn up they normally take so long that the person causing problems is gone. So really it just seems like a pointless police force. Plus whenever i see them they are mostly standing around doing nothing. It is not a good use of police resources.

I've had the civil police force turn up, and be equally useless. Making no arrests, not even 'having a word' with anyone - despite staff being verbally abused, and drug paraphernalia being present. Just putting them on a train on another platform, that was overtaking my one due to me being stopped for the police.

So the police's action, was for the miscreants to get to their destination faster than everyone else on the train.

Awesome.


On another occasion, three youths assaulted three other passengers (one of whom got a broken nose) whilst disembarking from a train. Civil police got there first, but the youths had run off into the dark field next to the station (Not 'trackside' by the way. You wouldn't need PTS to go there) by that time. The officers spoke of calling in the dog unit to get the dogs to hunt them out.
BTP turned up. Discussion with the civil police took place. The dog unit was mentioned again.
"Don't worry about that," the BTP Sargent said to the civil officer, then turned to the other BTP officers with him and said, "Follow me." He switched his torch on, and led his officers into the dark field. Less than 20 seconds went by before his torch picked out the offenders and they surrendered.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I think the better move would be to broaden the remit of BTP to cover ports, airports, and motorways. Airport/port policing is highly specialised, with a big focus on counter terrorism and trafficking. Both motorway and railway policing are long distance, cross-county affairs. None of these really fit well with the present size of territorial forces, and the port constabularies are too small to be optimally effective.

MOD Plod and CNC are more difficult as there is significant role overlap in their roles to protect Critical National Infrastructure, but significant divergence in protecting specific MOD sites.

MOD police, CNC and the Aviation command unit of the MET (and probably the other airport units) are all permanently armed units so wouldn't be a natural fit into BTP. I personally think that the LUL unit of the BTP was close to being folded into the MET a few years ago and would probably have worked quite well. But the route crime of the mainline railway probably works best being addressed by a national police service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 19:59 ==

What are the qualification requirements like for BTP vs Local police. BTP don't have to do a lot of social worker role that local policemen have turned into, which should make training and recruitment easier?

Same qualifications these days; about 15 years back BTP didn't have the same legal standing as the home office police services but that's all been sorted now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 20:22 ==

The BTP only covers Britain, how does Northern Ireland manage, do they just use the PSNI to cover the railways?

Yes though there are separate police services for the Harbours and the Airports; and are the only armed 'private' police services in the UK

 

[furnessvale]

If BTP are absorbed into local forces the immediate effect will be no permanent presence of police officers on railway property.

ALL officers will be deployed in the force area and will respond to calls as priorities within that area demand.

For example, a dispute between revenue staff and passengers would be VERY low priority.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Without reading many of the above comments (which I will do later) merging them with regular police will iron out a lot of issues when members of the public call the Police and are told its the responsibility of the BTP when it isn't and no-doubt visa versa.

Does anyone know if BTP are trained in PTS ?

 

[amahy]

I agree that BTP should be absorbed into the regular police, or be given more powers.

Brings back sad memories of when a woman was assaulted on the platform at Manchester Victoria, then the train had to wait more than half an hour for the regular police to arrive with BTP on scene that couldn’t do anything about it.

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone know if BTP are trained in PTS ?

Yes.

merging them with regular police will iron out a lot of issues when members of the public call the Police and are told its the responsibility of the BTP

In reality, local police will take the report and pass it onto BTP, if urgent directly via internal numbers they hold for the control room.