Future of the 350/2s

[Zomboid]

On the Bournemouth to Manchester run there is a lot of passenger turnover at New Street. Anecdotally I'd say about 66-75% of the arriving passengers disembark, but that's not in any way scientific.

If (for example) the train continued through to Coventry (let's electrify one of the sidings adjacent to the Leamington line for turnbacks if necessary) then I suspect that in itself wouldn't inconvenience many people coming from the north - though I'd probably be one of them...

Though that wouldn't help passengers needing to go to Leamington or further south (could those run via Solihull to save a path on the Coventry line? But then that would disconnect Coventry and Birmingham International from direct trains to/from Leamington and the south...).

 

[The Planner]

On the Bournemouth to Manchester run there is a lot of passenger turnover at New Street. Anecdotally I'd say about 66-75% of the arriving passengers disembark, but that's not in any way scientific.

If (for example) the train continued through to Coventry (let's electrify one of the sidings adjacent to the Leamington line for turnbacks if necessary) then I suspect that in itself wouldn't inconvenience many people coming from the north - though I'd probably be one of them...

Though that wouldn't help passengers needing to go to Leamington or further south (could those run via Solihull to save a path on the Coventry line? But then that would disconnect Coventry and Birmingham International from direct trains to/from Leamington and the south...).

XC would in no way relinquish the Cov corridor for the Bournemouth service.

 

[Zomboid]

XC would in no way relinquish the Cov corridor for the Bournemouth service.

No, I don't think it's a good idea from my viewpoint as a semi-regular passenger, either. Though if there was a way to run a Cov - Manchester EMU service in addition to the XC that might help with the overcrowding.

Another problem that HS2 would have solved... And maybe (in conjunction with the proposed new Liverpool - Manchester line still could)

 

[stevieinselby]

In reference to the ex Manchester services, realistically, how many people are getting on at Manchester and travelling further than Birmingham? I'd be very surprised if it was a majority as I would expect a good chunk of people who got on at Manchester to have alighted by the time the train leaves Stoke! And equally, those boarding at Stoke, Stafford and even Wolves will get off at Birmingham. So will it be that many people inconvenienced by a change of trains at Birmingham?

It may not be a "majority" of passengers travelling across Birmingham, but it can still be significant numbers.

From the 2022/23 data, there were 188k passengers travelling between Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham New Street, and over 220k travelling to stations beyond New Street on the XCountry network (or connections therefrom), including Coventry, Bristol (TM & P), Reading, Oxford, International, Leamington Spa, Cheltenham, Southampton C & AP, Bath, Bournemouth, Basingstoke, Exeter, Gloucester, Plymouth and any more below 2k I didn't count. While we don't know for sure that all of those passengers did travel through New Street on an XCountry train without changing, it's likely that most of them did.

 

[physics34]

How about these go to GWR, then their 387s could move to Southern to provide more capacity down there.?

 

[hwl]

How about these go to GWR, then their 387s could move to Southern to provide more capacity down there.?

Far too logical

 

[CaergwrleKen]

I might have missed something but any reason why Scotrail are not having the 350’s? They would seem a nice fit with some Siemens already there and to get rid of the older units 318/320? Seems a big waste the 350’s are good trains.

 

[JamesT]

I might have missed something but any reason why Scotrail are not having the 350’s? They would seem a nice fit with some Siemens already there and to get rid of the older units 318/320? Seems a big waste the 350’s are good trains.

As has been mentioned on many threads previously, the existing units Scotland uses are 3-car, sometimes doubled up as 6-car services. 4-car 350s may not fit and potentially would require infrastructure changes (e.g. platform lengthening).

 

[stevieinselby]

As has been mentioned on many threads previously, the existing units Scotland uses are 3-car, sometimes doubled up as 6-car services. 4-car 350s may not fit and potentially would require infrastructure changes (e.g. platform lengthening).

A large proportion, possibly even a majority (although I'm not going to do the maths) of the Glasgow suburban network currently uses 3- and 4-car sets – while there are plenty that are doubled up to make 6-car sets, it's a very long way from universal. So it looks to me as though there would easily be scope to replace a load of 3-car 318s and 320s with 4-car 350s on diagrams that currently run with a single set, and then you have the 334s, 380/0s and 385/0s can be doubled up for those diagrams that do need more than 4 carriages.

 

[JCO1406]

Is it possible to convert the 350s into 3 car sets?

 

[tfw756rider]

A large proportion, possibly even a majority (although I'm not going to do the maths) of the Glasgow suburban network currently uses 3- and 4-car sets – while there are plenty that are doubled up to make 6-car sets, it's a very long way from universal. So it looks to me as though there would easily be scope to replace a load of 3-car 318s and 320s with 4-car 350s on diagrams that currently run with a single set, and then you have the 334s, 380/0s and 385/0s can be doubled up for those diagrams that do need more than 4 carriages.

So 37 350s, -21 to replace all of the 318s = 16 350s to replace all 12 of the 320/4s and 4 of the 320/3s, but that would still leave the remaining 18 320/3s unreplaced?

 

[Brubulus]

So 37 350s, -21 to replace all of the 318s = 16 350s to replace all 12 of the 320/4s and 4 of the 320/3s, but that would still leave the remaining 18 320/3s unreplaced?

If ScotRail were to take the 350s, they should leave them as 4 car sets, given that there are some routes which only need 4 cars. They could probably get away with a net loss in units, by shortforming services and occasionally running EMU services with the battery fleet. Glasgow suburban services are heavily subsided and a loss in units will help reduce the subsidy.

 

[Southsider]

If ScotRail were to take the 350s, they should leave them as 4 car sets, given that there are some routes which only need 4 cars. They could probably get away with a net loss in units, by shortforming services and occasionally running EMU services with the battery fleet. Glasgow suburban services are heavily subsided and a loss in units will help reduce the subsidy.

And East Kilbride which is currently mainly four car but a lot of two car and occasional six, despite the promise of six car throughout the peak. Granted they are 156 which I think are longer than the 350 but with poor standing capacity and dreadful dwell times.

 

[Trainbike46]

If ScotRail were to take the 350s, they should leave them as 4 car sets, given that there are some routes which only need 4 cars. They could probably get away with a net loss in units, by shortforming services and occasionally running EMU services with the battery fleet. Glasgow suburban services are heavily subsided and a loss in units will help reduce the subsidy.

Given ScotRail currently has some DMUs substituting for EMUs, I doubt they can lose many if any EMUs at all.

 

[Zomboid]

Is it possible to convert the 350s into 3 car sets?

There's not a huge amount of stuff under the non-pantograph trailer, so it might be expendible. Though how easy that would be in practice is another matter. Probably more trouble than it's worth, would be my guess.

 

[JonathanH]

If ScotRail were to take the 350s, they should leave them as 4 car sets, given that there are some routes which only need 4 cars.

Convert them to 18 3-car, 9 6-car and 10 4-car units?

 

[Brubulus]

Convert them to 18 3-car, 9 6-car and 10 4-car units?

4 car trains enables some 6 car diagrams to be short-formed to 4 cars, helping to reduce subsidy. ScotRail needs to be able to show that new trains will substantially cut subsidy.

 

[JonathanH]

4 car trains enables some 6 car diagrams to be short-formed to 4 cars, helping to reduce subsidy. ScotRail needs to be able to show that new trains will substantially cut subsidy.

It does, but I'd imagine that some 120m trains are needed on the sections of route where they currently operate.

 

[Brubulus]

It does, but I'd imagine that some 120m trains are needed on the sections of route where they currently operate.

ScotRail still has a substantial fleet of 3 car trains, I'm not saying that 6 car trains should be banished from the network, just that short-forming is needed in areas to reduce subsidy.

 

[JCO1406]

Just an idea here. Upgrade the 3 car services into 4 car 350s, and use SDO where needed. Then use the 3 car trains to replace some the 318/320s.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Just an idea here. Upgrade the 3 car services into 4 car 350s, and use SDO where needed. Then use the 3 car trains to replace some the 318/320s.

The 350s don't have SDO, they only have unit-deselect, which is only useful when running in pairs/trios.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 350s don't have SDO, they only have unit-deselect, which is only useful when running in pairs/trios.

I thought they had actually been fitted with ASDO but it isn't in use. Though it would be possible to fit them if they aren't in fact so fitted.

 

[SolomonSouth]

How about these go to GWR, then their 387s could move to Southern to provide more capacity down there.?

No, replacing newer trains with older trains is rarely a good idea - especially when the age difference is so massive (8-10 years). That and GWR don't have any other Siemens products, so I don't think it would be good for fleet efficiency.

Not to mention that I'm not sure 350s can keep up with 387s in acceleration (I've heard before that Electrostars have an advantage as far as top end performance is concerned), so timings might then need adjusting leading to pathings etc being all messed up.

Convert them to 18 3-car, 9 6-car and 10 4-car units?

And just how are we going to make 350s 6 coaches? Where are the spare coaches coming from????

I also doubt it is possible to take any coaches out of a 350.

 

[JonathanH]

And just how are we going to make 350s 6 coaches? Where are the spare coaches coming from????

The other 350s reduced to 3 coaches. Something would need to be done so that the 6 coach ones have enough power to move the additional trailers.

 

[SolomonSouth]

The other 350s reduced to 3 coaches. Something would need to be done so that the 6 coach ones have enough power to move the additional trailers.

I suppose that’s the only way. There are still a few 360s in storage, but I don’t think their coaches would work in a 350 formation.

 

[AJDesiro]

I thought they had actually been fitted with ASDO but it isn't in use. Though it would be possible to fit them if they aren't in fact so fitted.

Can't remember if it's been fitted to the /2s, it will be used on WMT after 730/2 rollout has been completed.

 

[Nym]

I suppose that’s the only way. There are still a few 360s in storage, but I don’t think their coaches would work in a 350 formation.

Would these be the 360s that would require TPWS fitting to be of any use by any chance?

They're unlikely to ever turn a wheel again in anger.

 

[Transilien]

ScotRail still has a substantial fleet of 3 car trains, I'm not saying that 6 car trains should be banished from the network, just that short-forming is needed in areas to reduce subsidy.

The Glasgow Suburban lines are in desperate need of a proper upgrade. We need to be more ambitious with the railways around which could be a great asset for the city but instead languish with poor frequencies and inappropriate rolling stock. In my opion, a new fleet of EMUs which are specifically specced for the many short distance, all stopping lines are needed.