Cowboy Operators a thing of the past?

[Leyland Bus]

I visited their depot when I was at high school! Would have been not long after they started up. Was doing a local studies project in what we'd now call Year 8 and I opted to do it on public transport. Wrote to several bus companies and Tame Valley and Bee Line (by then running double deckers out of a big covered depot somewhere near the city centre - sure someone will know where it was) both invited me to visit. I must have sat in that caravan. Goodness knows what we spoke about!

Bee Line operated out of the former RIBBLE garage on Hulme Hall Road by the railway arches. The forecourt is still there (and recognisable from photographs) but the depot itself is long gone. You can see in one of the arches red and yellow paint on the wall, according to afew colleagues who worked there, that was the part of the paintshop!

 

[JD2168]

They wouldn't - they were in competition with them!! I'm sure TMS weren't enamoured by Favourite.

TWOC had a proper depot (which is still with Go North East??) and blinds. The chosen vehicle (Bristol LH - rugged and spartan, but cheap to run) had been scoured for and they had some quite mature ones as the barrel was being scraped. However, I'd definitely not say they were a cowboy firm.

One large firm (not mentioned thus far) was Veolia. Standards were variable (being charitable) and some areas felt in the cowboy zone such as South Wales

I remember Veolia from there time in South Yorkshire having won a number of contracts. They got a number of Enviro 200’s that were leased but at the end the lease wasn’t valid as they were poorly maintained. One morning the vehicles fuelled up at a petrol station in Rotherham with them queuing up for Diesel. They kept changing the blind display so often some didn’t work. A number of vehicles towards the end we’re from other operations that had finished including some elderly Olympians & ex Nottingham deckers from a contract that ended. Some other vehicles included Mark1 low floor Darts in a previous livery with no working blinds. Some routes ended up being sub-leased to other operators as they had not enough drivers.

It rather proved Veolia are better at refuse collection than running bus services

 

[TravelDream]

The late Clayton Jones had his own unique err... style of operating buses in the Welsh valleys.
Being hauled up before the beak was an operational hazard which led to one commissioner saying that he met the definition of a rogue operator. Even being banned from running companies or having licences revoked only had temporary effect before a  new company arose phoenix like.

In common with other shadier operators a donations bucket next to the driver was just one ruse amongst many to circumvent the regulations.

He most certainly did.

His son at NAT also had a couple of run ins with the TC (now sold and he's no longer involved).

I let out a little chuckle when I read a news article online referring to him as a 'maverick operator'.

Maverick Valleys bus operator Clayton Jones dies at 72

Martin Shipton Controversial bus company operator and local politician Clayton Jones, who had frequent run-ins with various authorities over a period of decades, has died at the age of 72. In the 1980s and 1990s Mr Jones served as a Plaid Cymru councillor on the old Mid Glamorgan County Council...

nation.cymru

The article is a great read on quite a colourful life. 72 is no age nowadays of course.

Controversial bus company operator and local politician Clayton Jones, who had frequent run-ins with various authorities over a period of decades, has died at the age of 72.

In the 1980s and 1990s Mr Jones served as a Plaid Cymru councillor on the old Mid Glamorgan County Council, and as deputy leader for a period of Taff Ely Borough Council, which also disappeared at the time of local government reorganisation in 1996.

At one time, Mr Jones ran Pontypridd-based Shamrock Travel, which grew from being a one-vehicle company into one of the biggest bus operators in south east Wales, with a 229-strong fleet of vehicles and 300 staff.

Banned
In 1993 he was banned from being a company director for five years after a county court judge ruled he had shown “commercial ineptitude” and “commercial mismanagement” in running a transport form. His bus, coach and taxi company Drysilver, which ran services in the Valleys, collapsed owing £143,243. The judge found against Mr Jones over a number of allegations made by the Official Receiver, including not keeping accounts in proper order, trading while insolvent and transferring assets and paying off a bank overdraft to the preference of himself and associates.

During the period when he was disqualified from being a company director, Mr Jones’ then wife Alyson Jones ran Shamrock. In 2006 they sold Shamrock Travel to the transport giant Veolia for £10m.

At the time of the sale, Mr Jones said: ‘” haven’t finished, I have got other interests.

” I started off as a driving instructor myself so I’m planning to get more involved with training ahead of the new EU Certificate for Professional Competence (CPC) for bus and lorry drivers.

He added: “I have a business in [North] Macedonia which develops seats and bodies for Mercedes mini-buses.

“At the end of the day you go where the market is and the market is out there.”

However, Mr Jones couldn’t resist the temptation to set up another bus company, and also in 2006 he set up Heart of Wales (which also operated as St David's Travel) – a significantly smaller operation than Shamrock.

Conflict
Within a few years, the firm was in conflict with the Traffic Commissioner, who barred it from running services in Caerphilly following a series of complaints. These included that services ran late or not at all, and that the buses did not meet legal standards.

Traffic Commissioner Nick Jones said in a judgement that Mr Jones met the loose definition of a “rogue operator”. He wrote: “I have no hesitation in confirming that the operator deserves to be put out of business. The legitimate industry and other road users would rightly expect me to do so.”

The Traffic Commissioner made several other criticisms, including that Mr Jones was a “malign” influence. Further on, he wrote: “The travelling public, compliant bus operators and the licensing system as a whole will benefit considerably as a result of this operator ceasing to have a PSV licence.”

But in reviewing the Traffic Commissioner’s decision, Judge Mark Hinchliffe decided Mr Jones should have been allowed to run the services. In a submission to the judge, Mr Jones had said he would be obliged to make 20 workers redundant if forced to give up the Caerphilly bus routes and communities would be left without services.

In the event, Heart of Wales went into liquidation and it was thought Mr Jones’ bus career might be at an end.

Comeback
Later, however, he had a modest comeback, running local buses in the Caerphilly area. But this enterprise also came to grief. On February 14 2022 the punctuality of the newly registered routes was checked. The 12 routes were failing to operate properly and a punctuality monitoring exercise was carried out between February 14 and May 6 2022. The findings of the 499 observations were a 26.85% punctuality rate, with 68.14% of services failing to operate.

Mr Jones was ordered to pay a penalty of £3,200.

Mr Jones fell out with Plaid Cymru, believing the party had moved too far to the left. He joined the more right wing nationalist party Gwlad, and became a representative of it on Ynysybwl and Coed-y-cwm Community Council until his death.

 

[mangad]

I hope my friend made you welcome at Tame Valley - he could be rather a spiky character!

Well I have no recollection of anything other than someone being happy to help a boy with their school work, so I am sure he did!

I assume the depot mentioned by @mangad would I assume be Hulme Hall Road, the former North Western Road Car premises just off the A56 in the St Georges area of Old Trafford, also used by Ribble, if anybody could confirm?

That sounds about right. I remember it being a bit of a funny place to get to at whatever age I was then! 13 I guess. Went by myself so must have used the A-z to find it!

 

[DunsBus]

I understand that it was these irregularities, or the prospect of them becoming public knowledge, that derailed the plans by British Bus to float on the Stock Exchange, hence their trade sale to Cowie instead.

As mentioned by TGW up thread, Drawlane/BB were so focussed on buying up companies in the early nineties that there was no money left for fleet renewal.

Their worry about the irregularities becoming public knowledge turned out to be academic, as we soon found out anyway what had happened at Endless Street within weeks of the sale to Cowie.

 

[mattb7tl]

My old local was run by the ultimate cowboys... Yorkshire Tiger. It is one of the rare cases a cowboy didn't go bankrupt and got turned around gone are the days of the parts of routes being skipped, gaping holes in the floor of the bus, and doors or panels falling off mid service...
Somehow a lot of enthusiasts look back and LIKED the company which is absolutely mindboggling to someone who was forced to use their services with no alternative.

 

[JKP]

I vaguely remember a company called Crosville (not 'the' Crosville) competing with First in Weston-super-Mare. I'm not sure why they ceased operating or whether they fell into the cowboy category.

Did not the same company run contracts for Hinckley Point Power Station and were bought by First under the name Somerset Passenger Solutions ?

 

[nick291]

Did not the same company run contracts for Hinckley Point Power Station and were bought by First under the name Somerset Passenger Solutions ?

You would be correct. Though my understanding of their services in Weston other than the 100 is that the council forced them to compete against First. Not too sure if that has any merit though.

 

[Simon75]

My old local was run by the ultimate cowboys... Yorkshire Tiger. It is one of the rare cases a cowboy didn't go bankrupt and got turned around gone are the days of the parts of routes being skipped, gaping holes in the floor of the bus, and doors or panels falling off mid service...
Somehow a lot of enthusiasts look back and LIKED the company which is absolutely mindboggling to someone who was forced to use their services with no alternative.

Yorkshire Tiger was owned by Arriva?

 

[rg177]

I can concur with Veolia not being great. They had a contract for the Nexus-contracted 335 route when it first came about in 2010, and chose to run it with plain silver Optare Solos (debranded from the old LinkUp DRT service), no working destination displays (not even a piece of paper, so no destination at all) and drivers that regularly had absolutely no change float whatsoever. Predictably the route carried almost nobody.

Things did improve slightly, in that the buses eventually had working displays, but it was soon announced that Veolia was destined for the pan. Driver behaviour dropped sharply (they knew their jobs were about to go, so understandable really) and it used to be a battle getting them to actually stop the bus when you requested it.

It's since had a multitude of operators (Arriva, Phoenix, Go North East and Gateshead Central Taxis), who have all certainly had their quirks at times but nothing quite so wild as the days of Veolia.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You would be correct. Though my understanding of their services in Weston other than the 100 is that the council forced them to compete against First. Not too sure if that has any merit though.

Zero merit. The council were happy to have an alternative to First but no one compelled them to introduce the 107. That was Crosville overreaching.

SPS was a joint venture between JJP Holdings (parent of Crosville) and First. Jonathan Jones-Pratt then sold his stake to First.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yorkshire Tiger was owned by Arriva?

Yes...

 

[Efini92]

UK North of course was shut down when one of their drug/alcohol* addled drivers knocked a cherry picker over and killed its occupant in a very clear case of dangerous driving.

* Not sure which it was, but my experience of their operation as a student was that both of those were common, possibly both at once, and dangerous driving and utter disregard for the timetable was the norm.

I don’t recall it being drink or drugs. But the driver hadn’t had a day off in nearly 3 weeks.
When uk north were raided a number of buses had serious defects and there was little to no record of the training all the polish drivers had received.

 

[mayneway]

Correct. He was carrying and distracted by a hand drawn map of the route which is why the authorities thought training wasn’t adequate enough.

I recall 3 buses being found with defects but as the owner explained to me years ago - it was strange how not one of the GM Buses fleet were found to have issues…

 

[TheSmiths82]

Correct. He was carrying and distracted by a hand drawn map of the route which is why the authorities thought training wasn’t adequate enough.

I recall 3 buses being found with defects but as the owner explained to me years ago - it was strange how not one of the GM Buses fleet were found to have issues…

What fleet was that? Didn't they treat GM Buses and UK North has the same company, or do you mean the pre 1996 actual GM Buses fleet?

 

[Leyland Bus]

What fleet was that? Didn't they treat GM Buses and UK North has the same company, or do you mean the pre 1996 actual GM Buses fleet?

Im pretty sure he means the UKNorth iteration of GMBuses...

 

[mayneway]

What fleet was that? Didn't they treat GM Buses and UK North has the same company, or do you mean the pre 1996 actual GM Buses fleet?

They operated under two separate licences from the same premises in Gorton. Half the fleet was on the Uk North enterprises licence the other half was on the GM Buses licence. Inspectors only ever found issues with the UKN buses not the GM buses fleet - even though the disks were swapped on a daily basis and everything was maintained by the same engineers.
The Uk North licence was suspended and eventually revoked but they could have actually continued to operate on the GM buses licence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 12:36 ==

Im pretty sure he means the UKNorth iteration of GMBuses...

Yep the last incarnation.

 

[PG]

the driver hadn’t had a day off in nearly 3 weeks.

I'm not saying that it is safe but, in and of itself, that isn't against domestic rules:

Week 1 - day off Monday​

Week 2 - No day off​

Week 3 - day off Sunday*​

*can actually be a working day provided driver stops driving before 2359​

​

So 19 days (or 20*) straight is actually legally permitted!

​

 

[greenline712]

I'm not saying that it is safe but, in and of itself, that isn't against domestic rules:

Week 1 - day off Monday​

Week 2 - No day off​

Week 3 - day off Sunday*​

*can actually be a working day provided driver stops driving before 2359​

​

So 19 days (or 20*) straight is actually legally permitted!

Ermmm . . . that's actually not correct. Under domestic driving rules, it is possible, legally, NEVER to have a "day" off.
The regulations state "a 24 hour rest period must be taken every 14 days". This might mean that the maximum number of consecutive days worked equals 13 days . . . not so!! Provided that a period of 24 hours consecutive rest is taken every 14 days, it is possible, and quite legal, for a driver to work continuously.

Drivers' hours

EU and GB domestic rules for drivers of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles

www.gov.uk

EC rules are much tougher, and require a "full" day off to be taken after 7 days continuous work. There are also restrictions as to the number of driving hours in a 7 day period . . . 56 hours in 7 days, or 90 hours in 14 days.

In my (much) younger days, in my 20s, I worked 20 consecutive days . . . after (I think) my 12th day, I worked an early, finishing about 1400, and started a late the next day at about 1600 . . . so I actually had a 26 hour rest period. This was during a period of intense staff shortages, and was done with the agreement of my garage duty clerk. It was me that called a halt . . . after 20 days, I was exhausted, and told him that I needed a couple of days off to sleep!! TBF, the duties were quite short, compared with today . . . 8 hours driving per duty was seldom exceeded, although there was always overtime available . . . !!

I have actually heard of a driver that worked a 28 day period without a day off, by much the same arrangement . . . they didn't tell their duty clerk, however, and it only came to light when they had an accident, luckily minor, and they 'fessed up. In that case, the driver had been swopping duties to avoid a route they detested, and it hadn't been picked up. This was around 20 years ago, and the procedures were tightened up at this garage to stop it happening again. If they hadn't had an accident . . . who knowa how long it might have continued . . . the company policy was that drivers must always have a "real" day off after 13 days.

 

[Jimmi]

My old local was run by the ultimate cowboys... Yorkshire Tiger. It is one of the rare cases a cowboy didn't go bankrupt and got turned around gone are the days of the parts of routes being skipped, gaping holes in the floor of the bus, and doors or panels falling off mid service...
Somehow a lot of enthusiasts look back and LIKED the company which is absolutely mindboggling to someone who was forced to use their services with no alternative.

It's one of those, it all seems a bit of fun and an experience to those just having a jolly one day than to those having to use them daily and needing to rely on the service. I had a day out on their services just prior to the Transdev takeover and everything I caught was tired, it's of little surprise that almost nothing to come out of the Yorkshire Tiger fleet from that time period survives now (aside from the younger Airport buses).

Some will have hated just the fact that it was Transdev taking over them, especially as it was during Hornby's tenure.

 

[mattb7tl]

Yorkshire Tiger was owned by Arriva?

It was it doesn't change the fact they were ultimate cowboys.
Arriva Yorkshire, as a very stark contrast, were brilliant during these times with regular investment and marketing. Yorkshire Tiger may have been owned by Arriva, but from my view it essentially ran independent and functioned like a dodgy independent with what seems very little overstepping from Arriva.

 

[liamf656]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned Camms Buses and Coaches of Nottingham so far in this thread. They were so unreliable that almost everyone referred to them as Camms Collaspsibles.

Camms Collapsibles, a phrase I haven't heard in years!

Also in Nottingham we've had the likes of Premiere Travel, who, in the opinion of many, expanded too quickly after setting up in the early noughties. Also had my own experiences of buses being grubby, seats falling apart, and services running early or not at all, and of course they had their fame for undercutting Trentbarton on various routes and fares. Many enthusiasts were always wondering how they managed to get by with the fares being unrealistically low, but of course it all came to an end in January 2013. I liked the variety they brought to the Scania-heavy city with various vehicles including BMC Falcons, MANs and Transbus Enviros.

Yourbus (which spun off from Dunn Line after they sold to Veolia) also ran from 2009 to 2019, and were described by many as the "posh Premiere" with expensive Merc Citaros which were very well presented. Also known for undercutting Trentbarton and NCT (and also K&H Doyle, who unfortunately went under following Youbus competing on what I believe to be their only commercial service).

Interesting that CT4N is mentioned, as they did run very reliably with a fleet of electric buses before they became popular with operators. It's a shame that their quality of operation has dropped significantly. Now their biggest contract, the Medilink, has been retendered out to Skills, who, on the contrary and in my opinion, are the highest quality operator in the area

 

[mayneway]

Ermmm . . . that's actually not correct. Under domestic driving rules, it is possible, legally, NEVER to have a "day" off.
The regulations state "a 24 hour rest period must be taken every 14 days". This might mean that the maximum number of consecutive days worked equals 13 days . . . not so!! Provided that a period of 24 hours consecutive rest is taken every 14 days, it is possible, and quite legal, for a driver to work continuously.

Drivers' hours

EU and GB domestic rules for drivers of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles

www.gov.uk

EC rules are much tougher, and require a "full" day off to be taken after 7 days continuous work. There are also restrictions as to the number of driving hours in a 7 day period . . . 56 hours in 7 days, or 90 hours in 14 days.

In my (much) younger days, in my 20s, I worked 20 consecutive days . . . after (I think) my 12th day, I worked an early, finishing about 1400, and started a late the next day at about 1600 . . . so I actually had a 26 hour rest period. This was during a period of intense staff shortages, and was done with the agreement of my garage duty clerk. It was me that called a halt . . . after 20 days, I was exhausted, and told him that I needed a couple of days off to sleep!! TBF, the duties were quite short, compared with today . . . 8 hours driving per duty was seldom exceeded, although there was always overtime available . . . !!

I have actually heard of a driver that worked a 28 day period without a day off, by much the same arrangement . . . they didn't tell their duty clerk, however, and it only came to light when they had an accident, luckily minor, and they 'fessed up. In that case, the driver had been swopping duties to avoid a route they detested, and it hadn't been picked up. This was around 20 years ago, and the procedures were tightened up at this garage to stop it happening again. If they hadn't had an accident . . . who knowa how long it might have continued . . . the company policy was that drivers must always have a "real" day off after 13 days.

Yes the old ‘swing shifts’. I knew a few drivers who swore by these and did them regularly.

During Covid the company I was working for asked certain drivers if they would work 20 days straight - with the 21st day strictly off. I agreed and did two 20 day stretches then called a halt to it. It’s certainly not good for the body nor the mind.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I very rarely went beyond the standard 13 days out of 14 (ie off every other Sunday) when at First Calderline, but very occasionally did work an extra Sunday if it could be 'swung' legally.

At UK North, with separate day and evening/night shifts, it would have been trickier to 'swing' shifts, but they did have some short middle duties on Saturday afternoons. If you worked a day shift Thursday, 24 hours off, late start Friday then back on Saturday lunchtime it might have been possible I suppose.

Between those two jobs, over the summer of 2003 I spent a miserable few months working for a small operator* running (mostly) airport transfers from Halifax with two minibuses. No drivers hours regulations, no idea what I would be doing until a few days in advance but probably fair to assume I would be unlikely to get a day off. When I did finally get a day off, the proprietor rang me at 4pm asking what time I could get in to work, and was completely unimpressed when I told him about 7pm - I was actually birdwatching at an RSPB reserve north of Lancaster!

* - defunct for at least 15 years, please do not conflate with any current similar operator. But yet another variety of cowboy!

 

[YX73OUB]

Camms Collapsibles, a phrase I haven't heard in years!

Also in Nottingham we've had the likes of Premiere Travel, who, in the opinion of many, expanded too quickly after setting up in the early noughties. Also had my own experiences of buses being grubby, seats falling apart, and services running early or not at all, and of course they had their fame for undercutting Trentbarton on various routes and fares. Many enthusiasts were always wondering how they managed to get by with the fares being unrealistically low, but of course it all came to an end in January 2013. I liked the variety they brought to the Scania-heavy city with various vehicles including BMC Falcons, MANs and Transbus Enviros.

Yourbus (which spun off from Dunn Line after they sold to Veolia) also ran from 2009 to 2019, and were described by many as the "posh Premiere" with expensive Merc Citaros which were very well presented. Also known for undercutting Trentbarton and NCT (and also K&H Doyle, who unfortunately went under following Youbus competing on what I believe to be their only commercial service).

Interesting that CT4N is mentioned, as they did run very reliably with a fleet of electric buses before they became popular with operators. It's a shame that their quality of operation has dropped significantly. Now their biggest contract, the Medilink, has been retendered out to Skills, who, on the contrary and in my opinion, are the highest quality operator in the area

There was of course the likes of contract coaches in Nottingham, too.

And Bellamy coaches of Nottingham too must get an honourable mention.

 

[leedslad82]

In the leeds area a & a travel got a particularly bad rep when they ran the contracted 30 horsforth to pudsey service

 

[dgl]

I known it all got a bit mad in Weymouth/Portland/Dorchester in the 90's with Weybus, Smiths and Southern National all running regular services to Portland, then Southern National got banned from operating the Portland service so used another subsidiary and the Dorset Transit name to operate Portland services.
I remember the 5 minute service intervals using R reg Mercedes "bread vans" and later the V reg low floor Wright's which seemed futuristic at the time.

 

[ian1944]

Has anyone mentioned Pilkington of Accrington?

 

[Poiuytre]

Has anyone mentioned Pilkington of Accrington

I don't know a lot about them, but I always got the impression that they're quite well-run

 

[LancasterRed]

Diamond/Rotala I've heard aren't that good, mainly on maintenance side, not sure if it true or not ?

With Rotala anything could turn up. Minibuses and double deckers operating the same route at the same time has been known to happen. I've found that the 'on behalf of xx County Council" services tend to be punctual, clean and well handled whereas the contracts maintained by Rotala tend to be complete lotteries with literal pits showing up. The Preston 35 also had a gimmick for a few years where one/some of its buses ran with a destination board in Maltese instead of English. There has been interest in some of the routes maintained by Preston Bus/Stagecoach Citi since the 90s which would be a shock to the system if Rotala were to lose one.