Avanti London services from Liverpool Lime St

[Chris217]

I have noticed since the introduction of class 807s on the Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston services regardless of unit class used,shows all services showing 'Reservations compulsary' on RTT.
Does this mean you cannot just turn up on the day and buy a ticket to use on those services?

 

[A S Leib]

The only regular services which remain compulsory reservation in the UK, regardless of what they're marked as on RTT, the Interrail app or elsewhere, are Eurostar and the sleepers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You can still buy an Avanti walk-up ticket, in advance of travel or on the day, by buying from an outlet that doesn't make you pick a particular train, eg a station booking office.
Most TOC web sites steer you to selecting a particular Avanti train before offering you a price and a seat.
It's not just Liverpool services, or Avanti - LNER do the same.
Once on board, you can sit where you like (unless reserved).
On Pendolinos there is always one coach (9-car) or two coaches (11-car) which are unreserved.
Coach U on an 11-car Pendolino actually means Unreserved.
I don't know the specific position on 805/807, but it will be similar.

 

[Kite159]

On Pendolinos there is always one coach (9-car) or two coaches (11-car) which are unreserved.

3 coaches these days on 11 coach Pendos as coach G is also unreserved.

I think the standard class element of coach H (the one with Standard Premium) on a 807 is unreserved

 

[dk1]

Just ignore it. They’ll always be non-reserved seating onboard.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Just ignore it. They’ll always be non-reserved seating onboard.

Depending on which service, there is extremely limited non-reserved seating, especially if it's a Class 807 or 9 car Class 390. There will always be unreserved seating, but that doesn't mean it's going to be reliably available.

A bit like LNER now, where, yes, technically you can board without a reservation, but in practical terms, it would be very unwise, if you want a comfortable journey and preferably a seat!

 

[dk1]

Depending on which service, there is extremely limited non-reserved seating, especially if it's a Class 807 or 9 car Class 390. There will always be unreserved seating, but that doesn't mean it's going to be reliably available.

A bit like LNER now, where, yes, technically you can board without a reservation, but in practical terms, it would be very unwise, if you want a comfortable journey and preferably a seat!

Im not one for seat reservations. I find it all to stressful and just get anxious about the arguments. I prefer to just take the risk then decide if I’ll stand or just wait for the next service or take a different route.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just ignore it. They’ll always be non-reserved seating onboard.

Exception, of course, being an hour or two after an event such as a Liverpool or Everton first team home game has just finished. Might struggle to find a seat, then. Otherwise @dk1 is correct.

 

[jamesst]

Unfortunately the Liverpool service seems to of been dumped with the 807s, even on an hourly service

 

[Kite159]

Exception, of course, being an hour or two after an event such as a Liverpool or Everton first team home game has just finished. Might struggle to find a seat, then. Otherwise @dk1 is correct.

Especially after a Liverpool home game when the Liverpool fans are heading back home to London

 

[styles]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of these reservation compulsory tags get added during COVID-19 lockdowns when they effectively were compulsory so that seats could be allocated in a socially-distanced formation? At least, when I had cause to get LNER from Waverley to London, and the seat bookings were strategically distanced between groups, that's when I first noticed compulsory reservation tags on RTT.

If there's no other purpose for them, they should be removed from the timetable data.

 

[Watershed]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of these reservation compulsory tags get added during COVID-19 lockdowns when they effectively were compulsory so that seats could be allocated in a socially-distanced formation? At least, when I had cause to get LNER from Waverley to London, and the seat bookings were strategically distanced between groups, that's when I first noticed compulsory reservation tags on RTT.

If there's no other purpose for them, they should be removed from the timetable data.

Yes, that was the pretence under which the fake 'compulsory reservations' fields were added to the schedules by operators like Avanti, LNER and Grand Central.

Of course it suited them to prevent people from buying tickets for trains that are "sold out" (albeit there are plenty of workarounds), hence they have kept it.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of these reservation compulsory tags get added during COVID-19 lockdowns when they effectively were compulsory so that seats could be allocated in a socially-distanced formation? At least, when I had cause to get LNER from Waverley to London, and the seat bookings were strategically distanced between groups, that's when I first noticed compulsory reservation tags on RTT.

If there's no other purpose for them, they should be removed from the timetable data.

They play a huge role in revenue/demand management and for some stations, also have a safety or disability aspect/angle.

For example, TOCs try to ensure that reservations can't be made in coaches that don't fit on a certain platform, e.g. at Haymarket on Avanti or quite a few on GWR. Important for everyone, but especially for those who are in a wheelchair. It nudges all passengers to take a seat in a coach that is appropriate to their journey.

It also greatly reduces the likelihood of a customer holding a ticket for a train that is virtually full and the adverse press around paying £X and how awful it is they had to stand etc. It nudges customers to change their travel plans to trains that show availability.

In any event, it doesn't really affect the majority because the majority are travelling with a ticket that has a mandatory reservation already. People travelling with tickets without a mandatory reservation on LNER, Avanti etc are an ever diminishing minority.

 

[styles]

They play a huge role in revenue/demand management and for some stations, also have a safety or disability aspect/angle.

For example, TOCs try to ensure that reservations can't be made in coaches that don't fit on a certain platform, e.g. at Haymarket on Avanti or quite a few on GWR. Important for everyone, but especially for those who are in a wheelchair. It nudges all passengers to take a seat in a coach that is appropriate to their journey.

I may be missing something, but why does that example require tagging the journey as reservations compulsory? The journey planners will already facilitate this for specific journeys, and in the case of somebody having a flexible ticket (which are still sold of course), it doesn't help that user, as they're not really going to buy a flexible ticket then go back later and reserve a seat only because it originally showed up as reservations compulsory, particularly given most journey planners don't show this information up-front.

E.g. in OP's example, Liverpool to London on Avanti, if I search for that on Trainline, I have to click onto the '2h 21m, no changes' link (which would I, for a direct train?) before this information is presented.





On the forum's ticketing website, it's actually 3 steps to get to it - you have to click the little 'i' icon next to 'direct', then click on '(i) details' on the modal which appears:







It seems more a way of restricting certain ticket purchases than something designed to help passengers?

Also in any case, it is a lie. Reservations are not compulsory. In fact the trains will have between 1 and 3 unreserved standard class coaches. In the latter case, over a quarter of the train is specifically designated for passengers who don't have a reservation!

 

[Watershed]

It seems more a way of restricting certain ticket purchases than something designed to help passengers?

That's exactly what it is. @Tazi Hupefi is putting across the industry's ostensible justification for it, but I don't buy it. It was used very sparingly before Covid and yet we managed just fine.

 

[Adam Williams]

That's exactly what it is. @Tazi Hupefi is putting across the industry's ostensible justification for it, but I don't buy it. It was used very sparingly before Covid and yet we managed just fine.

The reasoning is a load of BS, in my view and the act of doing this actively impedes demand management in many ways by generating pointless reservations that customers often have no intention of using it.

It also drastically increases the number of availability queries a retailer must conduct when generating search results; which would be fine, were it not for poorly-thought-through contractual limits that were agreed to on behalf of the entire industry prior to all of this. It also introduces yet another single point of failure into the purchase flow.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yeah the industry pretends to have a justification but it's quite clear they they're just deploying a hack because in reality they just want to be able to pretend that a train is "sold out" when the concept doesn't exist but know that if they actually properly tried to roll-out compulsory reservations they'd get a lot of kick-back. All the touted issues are solvable with actual proper UI and interface changes.

If a train is heavily reserved or likely to be simply flag that to the passenger when buying a ticket: "WARNING: This train is expected to be extremely busy, if you do not have a reservation you will need to stand. You may wish to choose a different service for a more pleasant journey".

If not all the carriages fit on the platform then simply do not issue reservations for journeys to that station in unsuitable carriages which, coupled with onboard announcements and screens will communicate the issue.

As for revenue and demand management they already do that and far more neatly than the sledgehammer of just closing a train for booking which is a terrible yield management technique.

No this is entirely the industry trying to make its own life easier but dressing it up as a benefit for passengers. It's a shame that so many TOCs, RDG staff, consultants and DfT civil servants are willing to along with this gaslighting approach to their customers but here we are.

 

[Kite159]

They will pretend a train is 'sold out' in standard class in order to sell more first class tickets. Although that's more a LNER thing

 

[ainsworth74]

They will pretend a train is 'sold out' in standard class in order to sell more first class tickets. Although that's more a LNER thing

Not sure I buy that, LNER first class is already regularly full or close to full (after all it's basically 2 carriages rather than between 2.5 - 3 carriages) without needing to resort to any shenanigans with compulsory reservations. Similarly I doubt that Avanti are up to similar tricks as, after all, they only have 0.5 carriages of first class these days!

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the biggest problems with it is that the railway is normally very strict, and so some people may be concerned of a fine or prosecution if they don't have a reservation. While I see why the railway wants the concept of stopping selling tickets for a selected train once it gets to capacity to prevent the perennial moan of "I paid £200 for an Anytime Single and had to stand" it really needs to develop a proper way to do this and not misusing this flag.

One notable thing it causes is for InterRail app users to be forced to purchase a reservation which they do not need. It also causes people to be effectively forced (as far as it appears to someone who doesn't know better) to purchase a first class ticket at extortionate cost if Standard is "full". It also creates confusion of when reservations are compulsory and when they're not really, e.g. you'll be turned away from the Caledonian Sleeper without one but you won't on any other train unless you can't physically get on.

The other reason the railway likes it that I think Tazi didn't mention is the option of blocking sale of one specific train if you aren't sure it'll run, if you know you have a strike coming up or if you don't know what stock will operate it yet and so don't want people to be annoyed by having selected a seat and getting a totally different one or none at all due to a stock swap. But again this is a very crude, bodged way of doing that compared to doing it properly.

 

[mossleyhill]

Unfortunately the Liverpool service seems to of been dumped with the 807s, even on an hourly service

Had my first trip Eus- Lime Street on Sunday and it was noticeable how crowded the service was as a result if going from or 11 carriage Pendillinos, even for a weekend. Imagine it will become almost unsustainably overcrowded at peak times unless they revert back to the longer old units or double up as is done on the Chester service. Though I'm sure the extra tbh will resolve that when it eventually does arrive, but still a bit of a wait till then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had my first trip Eus- Lime Street on Sunday and it was noticeable how crowded the service was as a result if going from or 11 carriage Pendillinos, even for a weekend. Imagine it will become almost unsustainably overcrowded at peak times unless they revert back to the longer old units or double up as is done on the Chester service. Though I'm sure the extra tbh will resolve that when it eventually does arrive, but still a bit of a wait till then.

Not all services are 11 car to be fair. If it was a 9 swapping that for a 7 isn't a great issue as the number of Standard seats is about the same. If they're swapping what were 11 car diagrams for 7s, though, then they need a rethink at least until the second TPH starts in that hour.

 

[Skie]

If a train is heavily reserved or likely to be simply flag that to the passenger when buying a ticket: "WARNING: This train is expected to be extremely busy, if you do not have a reservation you will need to stand. You may wish to choose a different service for a more pleasant journey".

Our internal Evolvi powered booking system does this now. Shows warnings for any service that is expected to be busy. Seems to cover all TOCs too.

It also lets you book 'full' trains and then craps out a seat reservation for coach X seat XX which amuses me for some reason. That'd be a long train, or one run by the Romans.

 

[hexagon789]

Unfortunately the Liverpool service seems to of been dumped with the 807s, even on an hourly service

Not been "dumped with", it was always the plan that 807s would be used to Liverpool on the XX:43 working.

The second hourly service is Pendolino and there will be four more of these each way from September, and yet more again introduced in December.

 

[43066]

One of the biggest problems with it is that the railway is normally very strict, and so some people may be concerned of a fine or prosecution if they don't have a reservation.

This is simply factually incorrect. The railway is incredibly lenient in the vast majority of cases, as people who commit ticketing offences get away Scott free, only a tiny minority are penalty fared or reported for prosecution.

£250m is lost annually to the industry.

 

[The Planner]

Not been "dumped with", it was always the plan that 807s would be used to Liverpool on the XX:43 working.

The second hourly service is Pendolino and there will be four more of these each way from September, and yet more again introduced in December.

That is still under some discussion.

 

[hexagon789]

That is still under some discussion.

Ah, another poster suggested December was bringing more - as in a done deal. I don't think I misinterpreted their post.

 

[AJDesiro]

I think the standard class element of coach H (the one with Standard Premium) on a 807 is unreserved

Depending on which service, there is extremely limited non-reserved seating, especially if it's a Class 807 or 9 car Class 390. There will always be unreserved seating, but that doesn't mean it's going to be reliably available.

A bit like LNER now, where, yes, technically you can board without a reservation, but in practical terms, it would be very unwise, if you want a comfortable journey and preferably a seat!

Coach C (comprising 84 seats) is unreserved on an 807, coach H is not unreserved. Meaning that they have 36 more unreserved seats than a 9 car 390 (where coach C only has 48 seats). 9 car 390s also have less seats in standard class than an 807. I find that generally outside of match days the Liverpool services are decently loaded, some are indeed very busy, but it's almost always possible to find a seat somewhere, and if there aren't any seats available, then it still means more people are sat down than on a 9 car 390 (first class/SP is of course a different story, but it's hardly ever "full" anyway).

 

[London Trains]

To be honest, reservations should not be free in the first place - I'm not suggesting a ridiculously steep price but charging let's say £5 for a reservation would put a stop to this major issue of unused reservations.

Really I think seat reservations should be done away with completely, but I recognise that sadly won't happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Our internal Evolvi powered booking system does this now. Shows warnings for any service that is expected to be busy. Seems to cover all TOCs too.

It also lets you book 'full' trains and then craps out a seat reservation for coach X seat XX which amuses me for some reason. That'd be a long train, or one run by the Romans.

That's just a counted place. Some TOCs do allow these to be sold over and above the number of actual reservable seats.