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Dispatch Methods in Mainland Europe (including TGV)

Class999999

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Hi guys, does anyone know how the TGVs are dispatched in France, is it different methods depending on the station,
Also for that matter how does it work on other french services
 
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SHD

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The French standard dispatch procedure, applicable to all TOCs, is here: https://www.securite-ferroviaire.fr...tations/pdf/2023-03/rc-ab-2c-num-2-v2-mac.pdf

SNCF Voyageurs (the TOC) obviously has further, more precise procedures, but in a nutshell:

- when departing from the station of origin, or from a station where the train consist has been modified, the driver performs a series of checks and tests (brakes, safety systems, radio…) to ensure that the train is “ready for despatch”

- before departure, the driver must obtain positive confirmation that the “service des voyageurs” - all passenger-related duties have been satisfactorily performed and that doors are closed. Confirmation may be obtained by the driver himself for “EAS - équipement à agent seul” - DOO trains, by the driver from on-board staff, or from station staff. Transmission of information from on-bord staff to the driver may occur by voice but most frequently through the intercom - two rings of the cab bell activated by the guard’s special key.

- the driver must also positively ensure that he is actually authorised to proceed.

- to be even more specific, on a TGV, the process is as follows:
The guard stands at his door, ensuring that all passengers have boarded / alighted. The guard turns his key to the P position of the intercom device. The door-closing horn activates and all doors begin closing except the guard door. The guard waits for 30 seconds, visually checks that all doors are fully closed and that the on-board diagnosis system does not indicate a door-related fault. The guard sends a signal to the driver turning his key to S, a double bell rings in the cab, the driver checks that LSPO - his local doors-opened lamp - is off, checks that he is authorised to proceed, and starts driving. Meanwhile, the guard’s local door closes and the guard maintains the key on the P position for one more minute (to cater for an unexpected train stop).
 

stadler

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The French standard dispatch procedure, applicable to all TOCs, is here: https://www.securite-ferroviaire.fr...tations/pdf/2023-03/rc-ab-2c-num-2-v2-mac.pdf

SNCF Voyageurs (the TOC) obviously has further, more precise procedures, but in a nutshell:

- when departing from the station of origin, or from a station where the train consist has been modified, the driver performs a series of checks and tests (brakes, safety systems, radio…) to ensure that the train is “ready for despatch”

- before departure, the driver must obtain positive confirmation that the “service des voyageurs” - all passenger-related duties have been satisfactorily performed and that doors are closed. Confirmation may be obtained by the driver himself for “EAS - équipement à agent seul” - DOO trains, by the driver from on-board staff, or from station staff. Transmission of information from on-bord staff to the driver may occur by voice but most frequently through the intercom - two rings of the cab bell activated by the guard’s special key.

- the driver must also positively ensure that he is actually authorised to proceed.

- to be even more specific, on a TGV, the process is as follows:
The guard stands at his door, ensuring that all passengers have boarded / alighted. The guard turns his key to the P position of the intercom device. The door-closing horn activates and all doors begin closing except the guard door. The guard waits for 30 seconds, visually checks that all doors are fully closed and that the on-board diagnosis system does not indicate a door-related fault. The guard sends a signal to the driver turning his key to S, a double bell rings in the cab, the driver checks that LSPO - his local doors-opened lamp - is off, checks that he is authorised to proceed, and starts driving. Meanwhile, the guard’s local door closes and the guard maintains the key on the P position for one more minute (to cater for an unexpected train stop).
Interesting to hear that they use bell codes. I thought that the UK (and a few other British empire countries like Australia and New Zealand etc) were unique in doing that. I know that Eurostar do but i never realised that the TGV does too.

So a two bell code happens by turning the key to a certain position once rather than pressing a bell button twice? Does the driver on TGV trains repeat the two bells back? Also does the guard have the ability to send any other bell codes (like emergency stop for example) like we have?

Also if i have understood you correctly the train starts moving with the guards local door open? So the local door only shuts once the train begins moving? In the UK almost none of our trains are able to move with a local door open (not even with a cab door open) so i am surprised that French health and safety even allows that?
 

SHD

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I was not perfectly precise.
This video shows the process well :

At the beginning, you can hear the horn and you can see that the key is in the full clockwise position (P), which is a stable one. All other train doors are closing.
The guard leans out and checks visually. He waits a tiny little bit, turns the key into the neutral position, which triggers the closing sequence of his local door.
But he cannot leave the key in the neutral position, as all other doors would then be unlocked. So he turns the key again in the clockwise position.
When his local door is closed, he turns the key twice in the anti-clockwise direction (the position is not stable), which sends the bell signal to the driver.
He then puts the key a final time in the P position to ensure that all doors remain locked. Note that the speed interlock kicks in at 6 km/h anyway.

Another video where you only see the local door closing sequence:
 

stadler

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I was not perfectly precise.
This video shows the process well :

At the beginning, you can hear the horn and you can see that the key is in the full clockwise position (P), which is a stable one. All other train doors are closing.
The guard leans out and checks visually. He waits a tiny little bit, turns the key into the neutral position, which triggers the closing sequence of his local door.
But he cannot leave the key in the neutral position, as all other doors would then be unlocked. So he turns the key again in the clockwise position.
When his local door is closed, he turns the key twice in the anti-clockwise direction (the position is not stable), which sends the bell signal to the driver.
He then puts the key a final time in the P position to ensure that all doors remain locked. Note that the speed interlock kicks in at 6 km/h anyway.

Another video where you only see the local door closing sequence:
Thank you for sharing those two videos. As someone who used to work as a Guard here in the UK it is always interesting to see how other countries do it.

So it seems each turn to the left plays one bell. So they turn it twice for two bells. I presume there could possibly be other bell codes as well. That first video (looks like an older TGV unit) is more of a buzzer sound and that second video (looks like a newer TGV unit) is more of a whistle sound.

It does seem like a rather complex way of doing it with all those various turns on the key switch. I wonder why they did not just install proper panels with a button to close the other doors and a button to close the local door and a bell button.
 

signed

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It does seem like a rather complex way of doing it with all those various turns on the key switch. I wonder why they did not just install proper panels with a button to close the other doors and a button to close the local door and a bell button.
As a uninformed, I would suspect commonality accross the fleet. If it is that way on Réseau, it likely originated on Sud-Est sets back in the 80s.
 

SHD

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I think that the keyed intercom system ("dispositif de correspondance" or "monocoup") is even older and was already in use in EMUs in the 1960s.

For your amusement, the door-closing vigilance sound alarm of older TGVs, which you describe as more of a buzzer sound, is called "ronfleur" in French, literally "the snorer".
 
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stadler

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I just found this video from CFL in Luxembourg but it looks like they use similar practices to the TGV trains:


If you look at both 00:40 and also 01:16 the guard turns her key to the right to close her local door and then immediately turns her key three times to the left which is presumably giving three bells. So it seems that they may use a three bells code. It looks like they use the same Berne key that SNCF use on the TGV units. I wonder if some TER trains in France may use this method too.
 

Bletchleyite

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Also if i have understood you correctly the train starts moving with the guards local door open? So the local door only shuts once the train begins moving? In the UK almost none of our trains are able to move with a local door open (not even with a cab door open) so i am surprised that French health and safety even allows that?

This of course is safer for passengers as the guard can watch the train out and stop it in case of an incident. This in the UK is now lost.

I've mentioned it a few times, but I have witnessed an incident on Merseyrail which was only not fatal because the driver saw it in the DOO cameras and stopped. Yet there are lots of trains in the UK, indeed most of them, where once two have been given there is no practical chance of stopping an incident because nobody can see properly.
 

SHD

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That Luxembourgish train is actually a French-made train (Z2 or Z11500 in SNCF parlance) in CFL livery.
 

MarcVD

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Belgium : the driver has a tablet and the guard a smart watch. the guard closes the doors and then informs the
driver from his smartwatch that the train is ready to depart. Any other country using such a setup ?
 

SHD

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What communications protocol does that new Belgian procedure rely on? GSM-R?
 

Bletchleyite

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I find that a curious approach which seems to me to have a big potential flaw - what if one of them is logged into the wrong train? It would be possible for a dispatch instruction to be given for a train that isn't ready to start without realising it. See also incidents that have occurred in the UK using signalling by voice radio.
 

MarcVD

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What communications protocol does that new Belgian procedure rely on? GSM-R?
As far as I know, no GSM-R, which would be impossible because there are no portable devices available that can use it. The smart watch communicates over Bluetooth to the guard's smartphone, and from there to the driver's tablet over plain IP using the regular service of a commercial mobile phone operator (I think it's Orange but not 100% sure of that). I think it also works with the internal SNCB network wifi coverage in the stations that have it. I have already witnessed difficulties to make that procedure work properly in tiny remote stations were mobile phone network coverage is a bit weak.
 

bahnause

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At many stations in Switzerland, the departure authorisation is sent by rext message to the cab radio and the mobile phone of the registered train driver via the GSM-R services. This is done via an app operated by the Guard. This app, which is also registered with the train number, receives authorisation from the control system after the corresponding signal shows a proceed aspect.
The door is usually closed by the Guard on non DOO trains.

In future, a new version will be trialled in which the entire departure process will be handed over to the train driver. The guard can issue a veto via an app, which is displayed to the train driver on the iPad. As soon as he cancels this veto, the train driver can initiate the departure process. Here the train driver will close the doors.
 

Bletchleyite

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In future, a new version will be trialled in which the entire departure process will be handed over to the train driver. The guard can issue a veto via an app, which is displayed to the train driver on the iPad. As soon as he cancels this veto, the train driver can initiate the departure process. Here the train driver will close the doors.

Interesting. Will the driver have an improved sight of the train via cameras? Or will it rely purely on the interlock?

Otherwise it's similar to the OBS dispatch approach used by GTR's Southern services where the OBS can prevent departure with a key.
 

Bletchleyite

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No, all of the modern rolling stock is DOO capable and doesn’t need cameras.

I'd debate "doesn't need". While I realise CH's approach to health and safety is much more about personal responsibility than the UK's, dispatching purely on the interlock without being able to look at whether someone has become trapped is downright dangerous and people will die, to put it bluntly.

A short regional train where the driver can have a quick glance in the wing mirror (as Swiss trains usually have) to make sure is quite a different thing from a long train of IC2000 stock or similar.
 

stadler

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Out of interest what is the despatch procedure on TGV trains operating outside of France? Do they use the same procedure when they are call at stations in other countries (Belgium, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland) or is it done differently? Also what about the procedure on ICE trains within France?
 

Amalie

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As far as I understand, it is mandatory to follow the departure procedure of the country you’re in, because that’s the local regulation. I don’t think that the train origin/destination or type would change that. For instance, in Belgium, the conductors walk outside the train to do the “final visual check” (with the local door open) which I can see happening even on TGVs and the EC(D)s.
 

DanielB

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The Belgian conductors perform that procedure in the Netherlands as well, on the Arriva trains from Maastricht to Liège at least.
Which is somewhat funny to watch as those trains are not designed for such a procedure. So the conductor has to shout to the driver to close the doors, then the conductor opens one again for his check and then shouts to the driver again to close the doors.
 

rg177

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Which is somewhat funny to watch as those trains are not designed for such a procedure. So the conductor has to shout to the driver to close the doors, then the conductor opens one again for his check and then shouts to the driver again to close the doors.
Reminds me of when I caught the Rzepin-Frankfurt (Oder) local service a couple of months back.

The conductor blew her whistle for the train to go, then sauntered back inside. After about 30 seconds of nothing, she shouted "MAREK!!!" at the cab door. Sure enough, off we went :lol:
 

bahnause

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I'd debate "doesn't need". While I realise CH's approach to health and safety is much more about personal responsibility than the UK's, dispatching purely on the interlock without being able to look at whether someone has become trapped is downright dangerous and people will die, to put it bluntly.

A short regional train where the driver can have a quick glance in the wing mirror (as Swiss trains usually have) to make sure is quite a different thing from a long train of IC2000 stock or similar.
It seems to work pretty smoothly, and has done since the 90s. And there are plenty of short regional trains where I can see next to nothing, due to the curvature, reflections, rain or lack of light.
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems to work pretty smoothly, and has done since the 90s. And there are plenty of short regional trains where I can see next to nothing, due to the curvature, reflections, rain or lack of light.

That is quite concerning and by UK standards would not be allowed. The UK requires a clear view of all doors for a DOO dispatch - if there isn't a clear view the driver either could not take the train forward or would need to get out and look, effectively dispatching as if they were a guard.

I wonder how many trap-and-drag incidents there are in CH each year compared to the UK?

Obviously CH has different H&S standards to the UK, but it strikes me that as providing cameras and a cab monitor is relatively cheap*, not providing them is bordering on negligent. I wonder how the Swiss courts would see it compared to the UK ones?

* So cheap that the whole Class 350 fleet (bar /2s I think) has been fitted with them despite there being no intention to work them DOO.
 

hexagon789

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That is quite concerning and by UK standards would not be allowed. The UK requires a clear view of all doors for a DOO dispatch - if there isn't a clear view the driver either could not take the train forward or would need to get out and look, effectively dispatching as if they were a guard.

I wonder how many trap-and-drag incidents there are in CH each year compared to the UK?

Obviously CH has different H&S standards to the UK, but it strikes me that as providing cameras and a cab monitor is relatively cheap*, not providing them is bordering on negligent. I wonder how the Swiss courts would see it compared to the UK ones?

* So cheap that the whole Class 350 fleet (bar /2s I think) has been fitted with them despite there being no intention to work them DOO.
This article makes for interesting reading. 2019, but it states than in the five years preceeding (so 2014-19) there were 86 trap and drag incidents just on the SBB: https://news.save.ch/en/8491-2/

SBB: Carefully examine the door death trap​


SBB has reviewed the dispatch process following the fatal accident of a train conductor. As a further immediate measure, the railroad is subjecting all doors of the EW IV car type to a special check. The first errors have already been discovered.​

This much should be anticipated: The tragic cause of the accident in the case of train boss Bruno R. (54) in Baden AG on August 4, 2019 has not yet been clarified. As always in such cases, this task is the responsibility of the Swiss Safety Investigation Authority (Sust). But SBB has initiated immediate measures.

Defective pinch protection

The existing handling process (see box) has been closely scrutinized by Swiss Railways. The first conclusion is that it is safe for employees and passengers and has proven itself in practice.

The pneumatic anti-trap protection of the doors on the IV unit cars (EW) is not so great. As of today, it is known that the anti-trap protection was the train chief's undoing. He became trapped and was dragged along by the Interregio, with fatal consequences. The closing force should have been deactivated automatically, but this did not happen.

The problem is not entirely new. Since 2014, 86 passengers have been trapped in train doors, as Patrick Hadorn, Head of Safety and Quality, explained at the SBB media briefing in mid-August. The passengers mostly sustained "only" minor to moderate injuries, with two people suffering serious injuries. The door has also become an entrapment trap for ten SBB employees - including six train conductors - since 2016. The injuries were of a minor to moderate nature, SBB said. They went on record at the media event to say that Unit IV cars undergo routine inspections every seven to ten days. What's more, every 60 days, a specific maintenance check is due for each car: for example, whether the doors close without resistance. The anti-trap protection is also checked in depth. This is even checked with a defined block three centimeters thick. SBB also carries out maintenance work on the doors at regular intervals: The drives, for example, are lubricated every 240 days.

Special inspection: five defective doors discovered

As a result of the tragic accident, the railroad is now carrying out a special inspection of the nearly 500 Unit IV cars: All safety elements of the doors will be checked. According to SBB, it will take six to seven weeks until this is implemented. So far, five doors have been found to have failed anti-trap protection.

The railroad is analyzing the entire anti-trap technology in detail. Initial tests have revealed a previously hidden defect. The result is that the anti-trap protection on EW IV carriages works in UIC mode, but reacts less sensitively than specified. SBB has since informed the Federal Office of Transport and the safety investigation authority Sust about this hidden defect.

Remove car type from circulation?


Based on current knowledge and SBB's safety assessment, it is not necessary to take the Einheitswagen IV out of service, Federal Railways stressed. Based on the ongoing Sust investigation, the accident was not related to the hidden defect.

The wagon type in question, which was purchased in the 1980s, is to remain on the rails for longer. The EW IVs would remain in service until the 2030s - from the 2020s, however, only as reinforcement modules together with the double-deck IC2000 express train cars.

SBB points out that the new generation rolling stock had additional safety elements such as light barriers and sensors in the area of the doors compared to the EW IV car type.

This is how the clearance process works
The train attendant gives the driver permission to depart by SMS or via the orange check-in box on the platform and boards the train. He then activates the door closing by means of a UIC closing command. The door where the closing command is given remains open. The conductor then observes the closing process from inside the car at the next door and then closes his own door with the button. The locking indicator lamp in the driver's cab, which lights up when the doors are open, goes out. The locomotive driver may now depart.
 

Bletchleyite

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That brings up the old, dangerous SBB guard dispatch procedure which basically assumed door closure would be successful and the guard would make it back on board.

It used to be thus:
1. Guard blows whistle
2. Guard operates key in platform box which gives driver departure signal after a short delay of a few seconds
3. Guard returns to train and operates key to close doors
4. Guard closes local door and goes into train

When I was working in CH I witnessed a number of trains go out with passenger doors still open under this method where the guard was a bit slow.

It would be pretty easy to change this to what they did pre-DOO in Germany (and may still do on LHCS and ICE):
(0. Guard operates key in platform box to clear CIS and trigger classic "Bitte einsteigen" automatic announcement - not in all cases)
1. Guard blows whistle
2. Guard operates key to close doors
3. Guard visually confirms doors closed
4. Guard operates key in platform box to give driver departure signal (or waves baton, or says "Abfahren, bitte" to driver if close enough to be heard)
5. Guard closes local door and goes into train

So I always thought it odd that they persisted with the unnecessarily dangerous sequence. I get the personal responsibility thing in CH and have a certain level of respect for it, but I don't get making something dangerous when it need not be dangerous and is easy to be made much safer.

FWIW I've been belted by a closing EW IV door, it's certainly powerful enough to knock you over, similar to 153 doors! And the classic UIC folding door doesn't take any prisoners either.

I believe they've now changed it so with guard dispatch the right away is given using the guard's phone after the doors have been closed, as noted above?
 
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hexagon789

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It's actually an advert for the DOO System, as the problematic door are non DOO compliant and the trains are despatched by the guard.
It was more for the statistics of the number of trap and drag incidents on SBB than the deficiencies of the EWIV door system or dispatch process I posted it.
 

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