Service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[Failed Unit]

Unless ARS has AI "the computers" will do what they are programmed to do.

As the old programming saying goes... garbage in = garbage out.

I thought they had a degree of AI in them now, or is that just testing rather than in real service. In today’s ”issue” clearly the timetable plan didn’t follow the ARS plan as the timetable had the Stevenage - London planned to pass somewhere between Potters Bar and New Barnet on the fast. The ARS didn’t.

 

[Steve Harris]

I thought they had a degree of AI in them now, or is that just testing rather than in real service. In today’s ”issue” clearly the timetable plan didn’t follow the ARS plan as the timetable had the Stevenage - London planned to pass somewhere between Potters Bar and New Barnet on the fast. The ARS didn’t.

I don't think ARS has AI, but there are variations of ARS (DRS and SARS if my memory serves me correctly) which I led to believe is supposed to have some kind of learning. I'm sure someone who knows more than me can elaborate further, as my knowledge has only come from reading various threads on this forum. (see my earlier edited post)

This thread explains a lot about ARS systems https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-signalling-rocs.259348/page-5

 

[Magdalia]

What are folk's views on Kings Cross to Scotland xx00/xx30 departures along with xx03/xx33 Kings Cross to Leeds departures being held on the run-up to Finsbury Park to let a late-running Horsham-Peterborough finish loading at Finsbury Park and then take up pole position on the fast line? It may well be absolutely the right course of action as the LNERs will likely recover the time but just seems strange when two long-distance trains defer to a multiple unit.

My view is that this is very sensible, for 2 reasons.

The first is that if the Peterborough train waits at Finsbury Park, then it blocks platform 7 and prevents the following Kings Cross-Cambridge/Letchworth stopper from running on time. These are the most important trains on the ECML because they stop at Welwyn North. If they are late through the 2 track section then there is potential for lots of trains to be delayed.

The second is that if the Peterborough train waits, then it doesn't get to Holme in time to get across Holme Fen before the next flight of ECML expresses 30 minutes later, and maybe doesn't get to Peterborough in time for a right time departure back to Horsham.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thameslinks are class 9 headcodes, so have higher priority than LNERs, which are class 1

No, they don’t.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

No, they don’t.

I swear the priority is 9, 1, 2

 

[Bald Rick]

I swear the priority is 9, 1, 2

There is no reporting number priority in general regulation.

There may be specific reporting number priority in specific regulation statements, but as far as I am aware, there in not one which requires Class 9s to be prioritised over Class 1s.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

There is no reporting number priority in general regulation.

There may be specific reporting number priority in specific regulation statements, but as far as I am aware, there in not one which requires Class 9s to be prioritised over Class 1s.

Oh okay
I swear I saw that somewhere though

 

[yorkie]

Oh okay
I swear I saw that somewhere though

Very probably, but there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum who can put the record straight

I believe there are efforts put in to prioritise trains through the Thameslink 'core' where appropriate, but this doesn't mean they should always get priority!

 

[bramling]

Very probably, but there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum who can put the record straight

I believe there are efforts put in to prioritise trains through the Thameslink 'core' where appropriate, but this doesn't mean they should always get priority!

I’m pretty sure the agreed regulating policy for the route states that in the southbound direction Thameslink trains should get priority as far as possible. Doesn’t always happen though.

 

[Failed Unit]

I’m pretty sure the agreed regulating policy for the route states that in the southbound direction Thameslink trains should get priority as far as possible. Doesn’t always happen though.

Except the WGC— Sevenoaks service, which get stuck behind the mess created by holding the “2C” at Woolmer Green. (Which can also trap a Peterborough - Horsham for good measure)

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m pretty sure the agreed regulating policy for the route states that in the southbound direction Thameslink trains should get priority as far as possible. Doesn’t always happen though.

Within certain parameters.

But it is not, and never has been, that Class 9 trumps Class 1 (and 2-8).
If it was, then
a) I wouldn’t have been delayed this morning on my way to work, and
b) I wouldn’t have been delayed this evening on my way home.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect regulation is hard on lines where nearly everything is a class 9.

However, for a signaller it most be a pain. Typcially every hour on the 2 track section. at x10 and x40 mins a train to London Kings Cross leaves Stevenage. It gets held at Woolmer green frequently. Does it matter? Not really as long as it clears Welwyn Garden City ahead of the Moorgate (which doesn’t always happen). However the Peterborough - Horsham leaves Stevenage about x17 and x47, so if it was pathed on the relief (slow) then the class 9 is also held as it is stock behind the class 2.

Not sure if the Horsham is scheduled to pass the Cambridge to London before the Welwyn North stop, but if it doesn’t it can still get to Finsbury Park on-time (if it passes the junction on time)

All good fun.

 

[GordonT]

I suspect regulation is hard on lines where nearly everything is a class 9.
However, for a signaller it most be a pain.

During disruption threading the northbound Cambridge stoppers across the Welwyn bottleneck must be quite challenging. On occasion to avoid the stopper waiting for ever and a day on the slow line with other slow line trains queueing from Hatfield onwards they need to choose their moment to halt the flow of traffic on the fast line to allow it out.

 

[Failed Unit]

Actually you have highlighted a common problem. When the service is disrupted because of an incident at say Knebworth. We have seen the Moorgate - Welwyn service also suspended because of a “2C” in the section. There are pro’s and con’s in all situations as frequently you don’t know how long the incident will last for. Us on the train often wish they would just terminate the 2C at Welwyn to get the line back, however clearly that doesn’t help the staff at WGC to have a trainload of people with no-where to go.

 

[Magdalia]

However, for a signaller it most be a pain. Typcially every hour on the 2 track section. at x10 and x40 mins a train to London Kings Cross leaves Stevenage. It gets held at Woolmer green frequently. Does it matter? Not really as long as it clears Welwyn Garden City ahead of the Moorgate (which doesn’t always happen). However the Peterborough - Horsham leaves Stevenage about x17 and x47, so if it was pathed on the relief (slow) then the class 9 is also held as it is stock behind the class 2.

Not sure if the Horsham is scheduled to pass the Cambridge to London before the Welwyn North stop, but if it doesn’t it can still get to Finsbury Park on-time (if it passes the junction on time)

The Peterborough-Horsham trains should follow the Cambridge/Letchworth-Kings Cross stoppers through the 2 track section, overtaking near Hatfield.

During disruption threading the northbound Cambridge stoppers across the Welwyn bottleneck must be quite challenging. On occasion to avoid the stopper waiting for ever and a day on the slow line with other slow line trains queueing from Hatfield onwards they need to choose their moment to halt the flow of traffic on the fast line to allow it out.

During disruption there may be a queue on the down fast back to Hatfield too.

In both directions the stoppers are the key trains through the 2 track section because they occupy it for longer.

 

[MikeWM]

Great Northern have - once again - managed to cancel both the 1800 and 1812 services at Cambridge North this evening, which - once again - leaves Cambridge North with (all together now!) a 53 minute gap in services in any direction in the middle of the evening peak. Wonderful.

 

[TSGN Spotter]

1T51 will not call at Waterbeach, Cambridge North, Royston or Letchworth this evening due to late running.

 

[MikeWM]

1T51 will not call at Waterbeach, Cambridge North, Royston or Letchworth this evening due to late running.

I assumed that I was reading the live departures board wrong, as I wouldn't have thought even GN would consider skip-stopping a large commuter station after such a gap in service in the middle of the evening peak. So, somewhat surprisingly, I guess my opinion of GN still has some room to fall even further.

Though I see GA, once again, aren't helping out either. Doesn't feel much like anyone cares to do anything to improve the miserable experience of commuting via Cambridge North over the last few months.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

1T51 will not call at Waterbeach, Cambridge North, Royston or Letchworth this evening due to late running.

Lol they may as well just skip Cambridge too at this point

 

[dk1]

It’s odd that there are so few comments to GN on Twitter (X) these days. Is it that passengers don’t bother and just accept poor service or that the replies on theirs is so much less prompt compared to GA? I see a regular complainer to GA is vocal again about a delay of THREE MINUTES to a Sawbridgeworth-Stratford service this evening & demanding (as always) compensation Those using GN must only dream of such minor disruption in comparison.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

It’s odd that there are so few comments to GN on Twitter (X) these days. Is it that passengers don’t bother and just accept poor service or that the replies on theirs is so much less prompt compared to GA? I see a regular complainer to GA is vocal again about a delay of THREE MINUTES to a Sawbridgeworth-Stratford service this evening & demanding (as always) compensation Those using GN must only dream of such minor disruption in comparison.

Lol I replied to them a few months ago saying it was barely any delay (and it always recovered it anyway) and they blocked me. I just scrolled through their account and the only thing they do is tweet Greater Anglia almost every day about this one train being 2/3 mins late
Also I somewhat regularly (every month or so) ask GN on twitter for allocations and I often seem to be the only tweet to them for hours

 

[saismee]

It’s odd that there are so few comments to GN on Twitter (X) these days. Is it that passengers don’t bother and just accept poor service or that the replies on theirs is so much less prompt compared to GA? I see a regular complainer to GA is vocal again about a delay of THREE MINUTES to a Sawbridgeworth-Stratford service this evening & demanding (as always) compensation Those using GN must only dream of such minor disruption in comparison.

Must be a vocal traveller for a random driver from another region to remember them

Travelling to King's Lynn is a bit worrying for me at the moment because I don't know if I'll even be able to make it home the same day. My go-to return is either the 1710 1T51 or 1740 1T53 departure which link pretty well with the 1831 2L81 Peterborough to Colchester at Ely. It doesn't take a huge delay to ruin the 1T53 connection due to the single tracked sections between Ely and KLN. My main reason for this concern was the other day when a freight train blocked the route until ~10PM, but that was somewhat of an edge case scenario. Certainly wouldn't have made it home that day because I have to take multiple connections (with 20-30 minute connection times).

It's really just unacceptable and I think most travellers are either making alternative arrangements or have given up on complaining as they know it won't go anywhere.

 

[Brubulus]

There was some disruption today around Foxton, with the level crossing closed and some limited delays for rail services. Not sure what happened but police were in attendance.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

There was some disruption today around Foxton, with the level crossing closed and some limited delays for rail services. Not sure what happened but police were in attendance.

I think it was a track circuit failure

 

[Magdalen Road]

If you ask GN about late running trains etc on twitter often they know less than those on the train. Or they take ages to reply. Even better, ask station staff. The standard reply at kgx is to wait for announcements.

 

[GordonT]

Genuine question for those who have known the area's railways for many years.
In the days of 1st generation DMUs and some loco hauled trains, pre-electrification and pre-Thameslink, what like was reliability and recovery from disruption of GN services by comparison to now?

 

[dk1]

Genuine question for those who have known the area's railways for many years.
In the days of 1st generation DMUs and some loco hauled trains, pre-electrification and pre-Thameslink, what like was reliability and recovery from disruption of GN services by comparison to now?

You have to remember the phenomenal growth in commuting and general travel into and out of Cambridge. Prior to electrification it only had a fraction of the services we know today. For example I once read that Ely only had 20 season ticket holders travelling to London.

 

[GordonT]

You have to remember the phenomenal growth in commuting and general travel into and out of Cambridge. Prior to electrification it only had a fraction of the services we know today. For example I once read that Ely only had 20 season ticket holders travelling to London.

Good point, well put. I wonder if the volume and complexity of services and associated ridership now compared to what previously existed on the infrastructure isn't always appreciated even as a partial mitigation when the current performance is criticised?

 

[dk1]

Good point, well put. I wonder if the volume and complexity of services and associated ridership now compared to what previously existed on the infrastructure isn't always appreciated even as a partial mitigation when the current performance is criticised?

I’ve got a friend who grew up in Cambridge and later joined the railway after leaving College in the 1980s. He’s amazed every time he returns at the amount of trains calling and passenger volume when he returns. It’s about to get busier still with Cambridge South opening, resignalling taking place, then hopefully EWR too!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

The latter could lead to Cambridge East being the next new station for the city.

 

[saismee]

It’s about to get busier still with Cambridge South opening, resignalling taking place, then hopefully EWR too!!
The latter could lead to Cambridge East being the next new station for the city.

Exciting times!