Cowboy Operators a thing of the past?

[gingerheid]

What is the definition of a cowboy operator... Bankfoot Buses?

On a serious note, the archetypal cowboy operator probably had most of the following characteristics:

- A fleet previously owned by the current director's husband, whose company's Traffic Commissioner problems culminated after the wheel falling off a school bus scandal. Is in no better condition, and people look confused when you say it's the wife that's running the company. They've only ever seen Mr around the "depot".
- Operated buses with no livery or a livery confusingly similar to the incumbant operator's, on the incumbant operator's most frequent route in a large town, but only from 7 to 6 Monday to some Saturdays
- Ignored timetable and much more into arriving at the next stop just ahead of the incumbant. Although they've recently changed their timetable to bring all their buses forward 10 mins again, they still ignore it
- Buses will disappear without explanation for a couple of hours if they get a swimmin contract or something similar
- Cash fare goes into a bucket. No ticket, or not issued from machine. Nobody would risk buying a return anyway (see above)
- Above does not apply to concession passes, which need to be scanned a minimum of twice, and possibly both on entering and leaving the bus
- Bus usually empty, but remarkably busy on any day the inspectors from the local PTE are measuring use of any paper multi-operator tickets
- Stories about drivers finding out they have no National Insurance record
- Appears 50% of their drivers were sacked by incumbant for a very good reason after all

I think the main change is maybe that the route they would have operated is no longer that profitable even for the incumbant monopoly as there's just less fares to go round?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Was it Kimberly Coaches / Tyne Blue Line

Yes, I think it was. The name Kimberly Coaches was in the back of my mind when I posted but I didn’t want to accidentally libel a proper operator

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is not exactly wrong to generalise independents as cowboys; it is the harsh truth, but it is not usually the fault of these independents.

It is important to note that essentially everywhere in the country is a de facto monopoly.

It isn't realistic for anyone to enter the market other than to run poverty tenders, which larger operators do not want to operate. As a result, this has created a large amount of independents, which are quite clearly unsustainable and are preventing their inevitable bankruptcy by skipping over maintenance and presentation, while largely surviving on decrepit end of life second hand vehicles. Hence, their (rightful) perception.

It seems that a lot of enthusiasts lower their standards because a business is family owned or a beloved fragile little independent, but to those who do not lower their standards, like myself or the general public, independents are overwhelmingly perceived as cowboys.

It is absolutely wrong to generalise independents as cowboys. In fact, it is demonstrably wrong.

I suggest you look at Delaine, Lynx, Sanders Coaches, BorderBus, Peter Hogg, Weardale to name but a few.

 

[Gwr12345]

Weardale

Totally agree with you there. In my opinion they are the gold standard of what a local bus company should be. A definite step up from Scarlet Band!

 

[Open top 80]

It is absolutely wrong to generalise independents as cowboys. In fact, it is demonstrably wrong.

I suggest you look at Delaine, Lynx, Sanders Coaches, BorderBus, Peter Hogg, Weardale to name but a few.

And the good old Mayne's of Manchester back in the 80s and90s

 

[DunsBus]

How about HMB Buses? I remember them running briefly in Newcastle and in Sunderland during the late-nineties. They appeared before the beaks following a wheel loss incident in central Newcastle, if I'm correct, and disappeared shortly afterwards.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Appears 50% of their drivers were sacked by incumbant for a very good reason after all

Even then you run into a grey area. I recall a well-established and respectable operator with operations in several parts of the country setting up in my then-local area. Not a cowboy operator by any means.
However a manager from Firstgroup was chatting to me one day and told me that most of the drivers this firm had recruited had been dismissed from First for either having accidents or, shall we say, getting their money mixed up with the company's.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How about HMB Buses? I remember them running briefly in Newcastle and in Sunderland during the late-nineties. They appeared before the beaks following a wheel loss incident in central Newcastle, if I'm correct, and disappeared shortly afterwards.

Run off the road by Stagecoach.

They were preceded by Welcome - who were bought out by Busways.

 

[DunsBus]

Run off the road by Stagecoach.

They were preceded by Welcome - who were bought out by Busways.

Thanks TGW. My memory was a bit hazy as to the circumstances behind HMB's demise. I do remember that they were started by former Welcome drivers.

 

[dgl]

And the good old Mayne's of Manchester back in the 80s and90s

And South West Coaches are pretty good down in the West/South West. Some older buses which are not in the best visible condition, but also some pretty new stuff. All services accept card and they even have their own smart card, and I haven't known them to ever not run a bus without good reason.
Definitely not an independent cowboy operators.

 

[mayneway]

And the good old Mayne's of Manchester back in the 80s and90s

Yessss! Maynes were our local provider for many years until they sold out. The service was always perfect and such a great variety of buses and coaches!

 

[Statto]

To generalise that independents as cowboys, is not only ignorant & insulting, its borderline offensive too, & is one of the most stupidest comments i've read on a forum, there have been (still are) good independent operators.

And the good old Mayne's of Manchester back in the 80s and90s

Add in R Bullock, also Finglands, although that was odd one, not sure what the sitution was but think they were owned by East Midland for a whilst then became independent again, before selling to Stagecoach.

 

[mangad]

Add in R Bullock, also Finglands, although that was odd one, not sure what the sitution was but think they were owned by East Midland for a whilst then became independent again, before selling to Stagecoach.

Finglands was sold to East Yorkshire in 1992. The new entity bought the original Stagecoach Manchester operation in 1995 (sold because Stagecoach were buying GMS Buses). East Yorkshire sold the bus operations to First in 2013, and the coach operation went to Bullocks in 2014.

 

[Cavendish1]

Dare i suggest Shoreline Suncruisers?

 

[nick291]

And South West Coaches are pretty good down in the West/South West. Some older buses which are not in the best visible condition, but also some pretty new stuff. All services accept card and they even have their own smart card, and I haven't known them to ever not run a bus without good reason.
Definitely not an independent cowboy operators.

The thing that lets them down for me is their operating area. Yeovil perhaps isn't the best town to run buses in due to social and economic factors in my opinion. But their fleet is usually in good nick and I don't think I've seen a service of theirs as you said not run without a good reason.

 

[dgl]

The thing that lets them down for me is their operating area. Yeovil perhaps isn't the best town to run buses in due to social and economic factors in my opinion. But their fleet is usually in good nick and I don't think I've seen a service of theirs as you said not run without a good reason.

Yes, for what is a decent sized town bus operation is not exactly where you make loads of money.

 

[mattb7tl]

It is absolutely wrong to generalise independents as cowboys. In fact, it is demonstrably wrong.

I suggest you look at Delaine, Lynx, Sanders Coaches, BorderBus, Peter Hogg, Weardale to name but a few.

You're right to highlight examples like Delaine, Lynx, and Sanders, but these are the exception, not the rule. Out of hundreds of independent operators across the UK, only a small number reach or sustain that level of quality, longevity, and operational independence.

Many of the examples you have listed succeed not because they are independent, but because they operate in monopolistic conditions within their territories, often inherited or faced little pressure during the era of bus wars. Delaine in Bourne, Sanders in North Norfolk, and similar operators benefit from effectively uncontested local dominance, allowing them to invest in quality, staff, and fleet. These are not replicable conditions for new market entrants.

While it is not ideal to generalise, it is also disingenuous to pretend that the public perception of many independents as undermaintained or unreliable is baseless. As more long-standing, reputable independents sell up or scale down, and as the barrier to entry remains high for those without an established depot, inherited territory, or significant capital, the number of quality independents is declining and the generalisation becomes more truthful year by year. Enthusiasts might forgive faults out of sentimentality or brand loyalty, but the general public often judge by experience, and too often, the experience confirms the stereotype.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You're right to highlight examples like Delaine, Lynx, and Sanders, but these are the exception, not the rule. Out of hundreds of independent operators across the UK, only a small number reach or sustain that level of quality, longevity, and operational independence.

Many of the examples you have listed succeed not because they are independent, but because they operate in monopolistic conditions within their territories, often inherited or faced little pressure during the era of bus wars. Delaine in Bourne, Sanders in North Norfolk, and similar operators benefit from effectively uncontested local dominance, allowing them to invest in quality, staff, and fleet. These are not replicable conditions for new market entrants.

While it is not ideal to generalise, it is also disingenuous to pretend that the public perception of many independents as undermaintained or unreliable is baseless. As more long-standing, reputable independents sell up or scale down, and as the barrier to entry remains high for those without an established depot, inherited territory, or significant capital, the number of quality independents is declining and the generalisation becomes more truthful year by year. Enthusiasts might forgive faults out of sentimentality or brand loyalty, but the general public often judge by experience, and too often, the experience confirms the stereotype.

Not ideal to generalise? Correct but that is exactly what you did.

Firms aren't good or bad because they are independent. Some independents do fit the view that you espouse - perhaps a selection of dealer white Solos that operate council tenders. In the West Country, you might perhaps have firms in this bracket such as Libra Travel and Frome Bus. Yes, they operate in the commercial margins, working on Wiltshire or Somerset Council tenders. However, in what way are they cowboys?? They operate legally, which is the most important aspect. They operate to the tender requirements so vehicles are dependable - they actually turn up. They accept contactless payment, have competent drivers. Frome Bus even has a website where they have full timetables and even fare tables. Granted, they might not have a dedicated app but that's a long way from being a cowboy.

Another example local to me is Faresaver. Now they most certainly were a cowboy firm. Under the Fosseway name, they fell foul of the traffic commissioner and Wiltshire Country Council. Having returned as Faresaver, they had a couple of very unfortunate incidents that highlighted a lack of robust procedures. In the intervening period to now, they have evolved, and frankly, grown up. They are now a superb operator - invest in new vehicles, are developing the network and have the usual bells and whistles and are arguably better at communicating with their passengers. This after essentially outcompeting First with a very canny strategy - twice.

You state that these exceptional firms operate in monopolistic conditions so that they have been able to invest in vehicles and staff. Yes - so what? Some are historical (e.g. Delaine, Weardale) of many years standing but remember that they were able to carve a business from difficult areas that major operators didn't want or couldn't make pay - a firm like Richard Bros simply filled a vacuum when the established nationalised operator pulled out in 1971. That process has continued as operators have developed and carved a niche for themselves. Some have been because they were able to out compete a major operator such as Lynx (against Stagecoach), Sanders (vs First), Faresaver (vs First) - they had a strategy that exploited the inherent weakness of the local major operator. In other areas, there was little or no competition because major operators decided that they would vacate an area as it didn't meet their rates of return, a loss in tendered work had undermined what little commercial base there was or because in a period of staff shortages, they elected to cede territory and focus on their strongest areas - for recent examples, see Lloyds Coaches in mid Wales (2013?), or Stephensons in Cambridgeshire (2022) or D&G in Cheshire (2023).

In short - there are fewer independent operators. Some are excellent, some less so, but relatively few cowboys exist now. The industry goes through cycles - the recent retrenchment of larger groups is reminiscent of the early-mid 1970s where they exited whole tracts of territory. Without smaller operators, then and now, whole areas would be without an operator.

 

[JKP]

Not ideal to generalise? Correct but that is exactly what you did.

Firms aren't good or bad because they are independent. Some independents do fit the view that you espouse - perhaps a selection of dealer white Solos that operate council tenders. In the West Country, you might perhaps have firms in this bracket such as Libra Travel and Frome Bus. Yes, they operate in the commercial margins, working on Wiltshire or Somerset Council tenders. However, in what way are they cowboys?? They operate legally, which is the most important aspect. They operate to the tender requirements so vehicles are dependable - they actually turn up. They accept contactless payment, have competent drivers. Frome Bus even has a website where they have full timetables and even fare tables. Granted, they might not have a dedicated app but that's a long way from being a cowboy.

Another example local to me is Faresaver. Now they most certainly were a cowboy firm. Under the Fosseway name, they fell foul of the traffic commissioner and Wiltshire Country Council. Having returned as Faresaver, they had a couple of very unfortunate incidents that highlighted a lack of robust procedures. In the intervening period to now, they have evolved, and frankly, grown up. They are now a superb operator - invest in new vehicles, are developing the network and have the usual bells and whistles and are arguably better at communicating with their passengers. This after essentially outcompeting First with a very canny strategy - twice.

You state that these exceptional firms operate in monopolistic conditions so that they have been able to invest in vehicles and staff. Yes - so what? Some are historical (e.g. Delaine, Weardale) of many years standing but remember that they were able to carve a business from difficult areas that major operators didn't want or couldn't make pay - a firm like Richard Bros simply filled a vacuum when the established nationalised operator pulled out in 1971. That process has continued as operators have developed and carved a niche for themselves. Some have been because they were able to out compete a major operator such as Lynx (against Stagecoach), Sanders (vs First), Faresaver (vs First) - they had a strategy that exploited the inherent weakness of the local major operator. In other areas, there was little or no competition because major operators decided that they would vacate an area as it didn't meet their rates of return, a loss in tendered work had undermined what little commercial base there was or because in a period of staff shortages, they elected to cede territory and focus on their strongest areas - for recent examples, see Lloyds Coaches in mid Wales (2013?), or Stephensons in Cambridgeshire (2022) or D&G in Cheshire (2023).

In short - there are fewer independent operators. Some are excellent, some less so, but relatively few cowboys exist now. The industry goes through cycles - the recent retrenchment of larger groups is reminiscent of the early-mid 1970s where they exited whole tracts of territory. Without smaller operators, then and now, whole areas would be without an operator.

I agree with your post. I would also add to your list of reputable, professional independents is Prentice Coaches in East Lothian who over recent years have carved out a small network of routes for themselves to the east of Edinburgh complementing Lothian Buses. Eve’s of Dunbar was another professional operator in East Lothian until taken over by Lothian last year. Perrymans too until acquired by Borders Buses who themselves are family owned. Glen Valley Tours based in Wooler always have well presented vehicles as well.

 

[stevieinselby]

You're right to highlight examples like Delaine, Lynx, and Sanders, but these are the exception, not the rule. Out of hundreds of independent operators across the UK, only a small number reach or sustain that level of quality, longevity, and operational independence.

There are loads of small and medium sized independent operators up and down the country who are absolutely not cowboy operators, a clear majority of them in my experience. They may not have the same excellent high standards as those examples listed, but they are competent and capable, they keep their fleet clean and tidy, they do their best to run a reliable service that meets the needs of their local community. Sure, in a lot of cases they will be running on tighter margins and without the economies of scale that a bigger operation can bring – they may not have a flashy website but it will have all of their timetables on, they may only get second hand buses but they will all be in the company livery, and so on. Then there are the reputable and successful coach operators who take on a couple of stage carriage services because there's a local need that the other operators aren't interested in filling.

Yes, in recent years we have seen some of the bigger groups go on an acquisition spree, and the adverse financial climate has meant that an increasing number of these independents have had little choice but to sell up – that doesn't mean they were badly run, if they were in that bad a state then it's hard to see why anyone would want to buy them!, but is a reflection of the state of the market.

 

[Statto]

There are loads of small and medium sized independent operators up and down the country who are absolutely not cowboy operators, a clear majority of them in my experience. They may not have the same excellent high standards as those examples listed, but they are competent and capable, they keep their fleet clean and tidy, they do their best to run a reliable service that meets the needs of their local community. Sure, in a lot of cases they will be running on tighter margins and without the economies of scale that a bigger operation can bring – they may not have a flashy website but it will have all of their timetables on, they may only get second hand buses but they will all be in the company livery, and so on. Then there are the reputable and successful coach operators who take on a couple of stage carriage services because there's a local need that the other operators aren't interested in filling.

Yes, in recent years we have seen some of the bigger groups go on an acquisition spree, and the adverse financial climate has meant that an increasing number of these independents have had little choice but to sell up – that doesn't mean they were badly run, if they were in that bad a state then it's hard to see why anyone would want to buy them!, but is a reflection of the state of the market.

Indeed, in my area we have A2B which is a decent small independent, who operate a small market of Merseytravel contracts, apart from 4 Solos (which are on the way out due to there age for Merseyside), the rest of the fleet are a year old batch of E200MMCs & sprinters.

 

[markymark2000]

Indeed, in my area we have A2B which is a decent small independent, who operate a small market of Merseytravel contracts, apart from 4 Solos (which are on the way out due to there age for Merseyside), the rest of the fleet are a year old batch of E200MMCs & sprinters.

"decent" until you want to use them on the 811 service and they regularly skip bits of the route out.

 

[Camb]

There was an operator around the Bury St Edmunds area in circa 2009/10 that ran buses in competition with First, they had a red and cream livery with question marks as fleet names, not sure if anyone can’t remember them, or have any information? They certainly seemed to be a cowboy outfit.

 

[Goldfish62]

In St Ives (Cornwall) there are two operators (Royal Buses and St Ives Bus Company), not part of the Transport for Cornwall partnership, who provide commercial services between the car parks and the town centre and appear to compete with each other. At least one gives the impression of being a cowboy outfit.

 

[markymark2000]

At least one gives the impression of being a cowboy outfit.

I'd presume the one which has the website which is woefully out of date and has outdated bus open data entries, and doesn't seem to be informing the council/National PTI what services it is running. Would that be the company?

 

[Andyh82]

In St Ives (Cornwall) there are two operators (Royal Buses and St Ives Bus Company), not part of the Transport for Cornwall partnership, who provide commercial services between the car parks and the town centre and appear to compete with each other. At least one gives the impression of being a cowboy outfit.

They seem to compete in an orderly fashion, with buses on the shared car park route loading up in turn alternating between the two operators. It was two buses each when I was there a few weeks back.

It reminds me of when EYMS and Shoreline Suncruisers used to complete on Scarborough seafront, but with identical PVRs and buses equally spaced, taking it in turns. Since Go Ahead took over they generally run a completely separate service with no coordination, with differing frequency and often a different route.

 

[Goldfish62]

They seem to compete in an orderly fashion, with buses on the shared car park route loading up in turn alternating between the two operators. It was two buses each when I was there a few weeks back.

They only do that because the TC slapped a traffic regulation order on them in respect of Royal Square. It was total chaos previously.

 

[TAS]

There was an operator around the Bury St Edmunds area in circa 2009/10 that ran buses in competition with First, they had a red and cream livery with question marks as fleet names, not sure if anyone can’t remember them, or have any information? They certainly seemed to be a cowboy outfit.

Essex County Buses, they also had operations competing with First in Chelmsford and emerged after the collapse of Stansted Transit, to which they were connected.

Here's some details nicely illustrating why both operators are eligible for this thread...

Two Essex traders, have been disqualified from acting as company directors for a total of nine-and-a-half years following an investigation by The Insolvency Service.

Sian Morris and Jamie Hammond both acted as directors of Essex County Buses, which ceased trading without warning in March 2010 leaving staff, suppliers and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) unpaid. This is the second time Ms Morris has been disqualified for her conduct while running bus companies.

The investigation found Sian Morris, 35, had not been formally appointed as a director of the company but had however acted in that capacity.

Both Morris and Hammond signed undertakings to be disqualified from acting as directors in companies before the matter went to court. Ms Morris was disqualified for seven years and Mr Hammond for two-and-a-half years.

In the undertaking, Ms Morris admitted that she had diverted payments of £90,991.87 from Essex County Buses to a related company which had been wound up, staff dismissed, and had stopped trading. Mr Hammond, 34, also admitted that as the only formally appointed director of Essex County Buses, he failed to carry out his duties and as a result allowed the company to be operated in a manner detrimental to creditors.

Ms Morris had earlier been disqualified from acting as a director for five years in June this year for her conduct in the management of Transit Group, Stansted Transit and Stansted Transit Buses, which went into liquidation in May and June 2009 respectively. She had admitted failing to make payments or returns to HMRC and failing to file accounts for these companies.

The disqualifications mean that neither Sian Morris nor Jamie Hammond may be a director of a company or be involved in the management of a company in any way unless they have permission from court.

Commenting on the disqualifications, David Brooks, a Chief Examiner for The Insolvency Service said:

“These disqualifications should serve as a reminder that The Insolvency Service will investigate unacceptable conduct by company directors regardless of whether or not the people in control of companies are open about their roles.

“The Insolvency Service will use the law to ensure that proper standards of conduct of company directors are maintained, and to ensure that well run businesses do not suffer unfair competition from companies that fail to comply with legal requirements”.

 

[Camb]

Essex County Buses, they also had operations competing with First in Chelmsford and emerged after the collapse of Stansted Transit, to which they were connected.

Here's some details nicely illustrating why both operators are eligible for this thread...

Interesting! Thanks for the information.