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New Blackpool Trams-now on the way!

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vectra33

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The first of the new Blackpool Flexcitys is on its way to Blackpool,
Its on 5 trailers and is being delivered via Hull,M62,M61,M55.
They will arive in Blackpool in darkness ,covered in sheeting to stop people seeing them till the official launch.
The 5 parts will be re assembeled inside the new depot and will be officially launched on September 8th,inside the depot,
There is no current plan to run the trams outside of the depot confines.

Dave
 
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bluegoblin7

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Are you sure that the first Flexity is actually now in the country, or are you just re-reporting (incorrectly) the news that was released yesterday about the delivery schedule and launch plans? Certainly my sources in the port at Hull have not informed me of the delivery, with it not due to arrive until a few more of Manchester's M5000s have been delivered.

Clarification would be much appreciated.

The trams will begin testing outside of the depot over the closed period for driver training and commissioning, with a full ghost service expected from March 2010 ahead of an April entry into service - Good Friday. Full details at http://www.tramways-monthly.com/latest-news/535-launch-date-of-the-flexity-revealed.

@umontu, sadly the launch event is by invitation only, which have been sent to the world's media. With it occurring inside the depot at Starr Gate it's also extremely unlikely that any enthusiasts who do go up to the depot will get any look of what's happening.

Hope this helps.

Jack
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry for the double post... my source at the docks in Hull has now confirmed that the tram did not arrive today, therefore confirming that the information contained in the initial post on this thread is incorrect.

Thanks,

Jack
 

WestCoast

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Send 'em back! <(

To be fair, I do see the new trams/upgrade as essential to the winter service and continual survival after 2020 (DDA). It's very sad to lose the old trams though.

They essentially need a tram to replace the number one bus! :lol: Ugh, The no. 1 bus.

Whenever I go on a tram, it's a Centenary or Jubilee, which aren't exactly charming. :roll:
 

vectra33

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They havent arrived in UK as far as Im aware,I was told they are now on 5 sheeted transporters and that was the route they are taking from the factory to Blackpool
 

BestWestern

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This topic has of course been done to the death, but whilst I accept that some form of additional stock or heavy alteration would have been required, eventually - 2020 still being almost a decade away - I cannot comprehend the incredible expenditure being lavished on what is fully accepted as being a seasonal, tourist-based operation and which is most certainly not a profit powerhouse. Just as importantly (more so to those of us who valued Blackpool's notable status as the country's last original street tramway), it is also deeply regretful that something more in keeping with the system's rich heritage could not be found, particularly bearing in mind the operation's substantial in-house skills in vehicle construction and tramway engineering.

What has really happened here is that somebody has been getting far too drunk on the whiff of regeneration that has enveloped the town over recent years, with the result that the authorities have sold out. Nobody other than those who see the town's make-over as their baby would actually consider it sensible to throw away such a famous attribute, or crucially to sink such huge sums of scarce cash into something so very unlikely to offer a return on it.

The local's in Blackpool don't tend to use the tramway, since it provides no valuable transport link to most of them. It runs along the seafront, where the tourists go. Yes, it provides a link to Fleetwood, but a casual glimpse or two over the years tends to show that the only instances of heavy use by locals on this stretch are OAP's going to Fleetwood market, who of course pay nothing. If anything, they cost the authorities a bloody fortune, and since it's those same authorities who own a big stake in the operator, you could fill every tram with OAP's all day long but it wouldn't actually constitute a penny of genuine profit! Blackpool Transport is banking on a big uptake from the fare-paying local residents in order to avoid the humiliation of watching the a*se fall out it's ill-advised upgrade project, and quite frankly it looks a bit of a long shot. If they don't already use the tram, what reason would they have to start using it next year? It's expensive (presumably more so from next year), during the season they're full of tourists and out of season the frequency is crap. The road network between Fleetwood - Cleveleys - Blackpool is perfectly good (or it will be when those pesky people from the tramway stop digging it up!), so if you use the car the chances are you'll carry on using it. The only place that the swanky new trams are likely to poach punters from is the number 1 bus which traces much of it's route, and guess who runs that? Yep, Blackpool Transport! Good work fellas! :roll:
 

WestCoast

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I live on the Fylde and I know full well what you are saying.

However, the number 1 bus is packed most of the time in the summer and is busy in winter. Shut that down and you've got an instant transfer of many passengers. I've always thought it was an absolute waste of time having a parallel bus. It was originally set-up by Fylde Blue Buses (long gone) to compete with the tramway and has sort of remained there ever since, for some reason. Probably due to the tramway issues, and to accept OAP passes. It wasn't even a low-floor bus until a few years ago.

They may also get a few people who have used the inland buses, but that wont really help. Whether they will tolerate not getting a seat on the new trams I don't know!

The tramway could be of use to locals (Blackpool Town Centre (North Pier) to Fleetwood and Cleveleys), but Blackpool Transport have priced people off it for years! All their low fare daysavers are for buses only, and the tram fares have always been more than the buses:

Day Saver Bus = £3.20
Day Saver Bus & Tram = £6.00

See what I mean? Add that to a patchy Winter service and you begin to realise why the buses have increased in popularity over the years!

They may have to make it a lot more attractive for locals with cheaper fares and good reliability. Which, to be fair, wouldn't be hard considering the unreliability of the number one bus, which spends forever in traffic or loading!
 
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BestWestern

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Indeed, this seems to be where it is all so very backward; the trams are expensive to ride due to them being very pricey to run, and because the revenue only flows during the season. Blackpool Tranny have always got away with this because most of the punters are tourists. They have the money to spend, and you want a ride on a Blackpool tram while you're there, don't you?! They're a novelty, a bit special.

However, in spending a fortune on all this regen crapola, the costs now needing to be recovered are incredible. The only way that will ever have a cat in hell's chance of happening is through higher fares income. It will still always be seasonal, so they now need to get the locals on them out of season. But the only way the locals will ever start to use them is if the fares are drastically lowered! So how the hell is that going to bloody well work?! On top of that there is the minor technicality that any trade won from the buses represents a loss for the other arm of the same company, oh dear! And I still maintain that the tourist revenue will drop over time too, as people turn up expecting to see the 'old fashioned' trams that will still be depicted on T-towels, postcards and novelty tat for years to come, only to find a dull lump of Europlastic hums up to the stop - "Hold on, they're the same trams we've got at home. Well sod that then, I'm not paying a fiver for a go on one of them" etc.

Somebody has made a cock-up of truly epic proportions with all of this, I can see it being a financial ball and chain around Blackpool's neck for decades to come :roll:
 
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WestCoast

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I know the new trams aren't heritage-like, but do the Centenaries, Millennium Baloons and Jubilee Cars look old to the average punter? No they don't and their interiors look like your average modern(ish) bus!

I actually think the tramway lost a heritage feel quite a while ago, gone are the days when you actually saw much green and cream, it's all brash all-over adverts! Many of the trams have bog-standard modern interiors too, so quite a bit of the time tourists aren't exactly getting the full experience on the postcard anyway.

Well, if they scrap the number one bus, they will save on that. This is looking inevitable since they have just started to accept all English OAP passes for free travel on the trams (not that they gain revenue since it's the Blackpool or Wyre council who pay for that!). Plus, they ordered smaller single deck buses for the route which are always crammed, some reckon they did this because they will be transferring to inland routes when the new trams start.

If they don't sort the fare issue out even when scrapping the number one, I foresee problems with coaxing people onboard! Then of course, if they do lower fares to bus levels, how are they going to get a decent level of revenue in. I agree, it's shaky times ahead and it might not be as rosy as the council think.

However, it is worth mentioning that the single fares are matched with the number one currently in the central area, but that's just a rip-off for tourists, locals don't travel on the central section! Where BT will have to promote it to the locals going from Blackpool to Bispham, Cleveleys and Fleetwood and points in between, which is actually a decent number of people. But if the fares don't match the buses, they wont come!

It's worth mentioning that there will still be the modified balloons to sort of keep the tourists happy. They probably won't notice the doors hehe!
 
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BestWestern

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I know the new trams aren't heritage-like, but do the Centenaries, Millennium Baloons and Jubilee Cars look old to the average punter? No they don't and their interiors look like your average modern(ish) bus!

I actually think the tramway lost a heritage feel quite a while ago, gone are the days when you actually saw much green and cream, it's all brash all-over adverts! Many of the trams have bog-standard modern interiors too, so quite a bit of the time tourists aren't exactly getting the full experience on the postcard anyway.

Ah yes, the modified Balloons. Some small consolation I suppose, and proof that BT still fully accept that there will be a massive decline in loadings out of the season - I hear nine Balloons are to be retained, plus the heritage stuff, that's a lot of capacity being put away when the season ends. I really couldn't imagine any other situation where a new tramway would be justified based on minimal loadings for half of the year.

I agree that the fleet has lost some of it's visual heritage feel. 761/762 and the 64X's were perhaps built in a time when the ongoing decline hadn't been properly understood, and the heritage aspect hadn't been realised as a factor. It's very telling that the concept never took off though. The recent Millenium rebuilds were ugly, but very impressive as an in-house job, as indeed are the 'porch' Balloons. But I think overall most people 'got' that there was something a bit different about a Blackpool car. Whether it was 700 in all it's green glory or 761 and it's slowly drooping body, there was an old fashioned, rattly, ropeyness about the whole thing :D Plus of course you paid your fare to a Conductor, a proper cheery northern one, who not only gave you a ticket but a bit of cheery banter too! It was very definitely an experience you just won't find anywhere else, which marked it out as special.

The overall ads had become something of a tradition I guess, sometimes ugly but of course they made big money. Now mostly consigned to the bin, and ironically something else which will now add to the increasing struggle to make money :roll:
 

WestCoast

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Isn't there is talk of keeping up to 11 modified balloons? A select few other trams may also receive the door modification too according to "Tramways Monthly", even a boat car is suggested - very well done I must say to the editor

Plus the heritage fleet. It would be nice if they could introduce a North Pier - Pleasure Beach regular summer weekend heritage service with a Standard/Coronation Car/original condition Balloon like they used to do with the "special trams" (e.g. Princess Alice, Boat Cars, Bolton 66, Box Car 40, the Toast rack, Stockport). This would keep the glory going to a certain extent IMHO.



EDIT: list on other thread.
 
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BestWestern

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Isn't there is talk of keeping up to 11 modified balloons? A select few other trams may also receive the door modification too according to "Tramways Monthly", even a boat car is suggested - very well done I must say to the editor

Plus the heritage fleet. It would be nice if they could introduce a North Pier - Pleasure Beach regular summer weekend heritage service with a Standard/Coronation Car/original condition Balloon like they used to do with the "special trams" (e.g. Princess Alice, Boat Cars, Bolton 66, Box Car 40, the Toast rack, Stockport). This would keep the glory going to a certain extent IMHO.

Yes, that would be a very nice idea! I've read though that there is some kind of bizarre restriction on precisely how many days each year the heritage fleet will be in use for. I'm unsure whether that is some ridiculous legislation of some sort, or just an equally daft local decision. The Boat door modification would be, umm, interesting! :o I would have thought a ramp carried on board would be a better solution. Seems to work ok on trains! I presume that Princess Alice is to retain the original doors? Though quite possibly she might end up with those awful skirts fitted around the front I guess. Are these to become a requirement, or are they just considered a good idea?

Realistically I can't see what other cars could work with any form of power doors. You'd struggle with a Brush single decker, plus they all appear to have been allocated for sale anyway. A 64X might work I suppose if you just went for centre doors, but BT don't seem particularly keen to retain them, although some have yet to be allocated any buyers. 761/2 both look to be structurally knackered quite frankly, although I guess they'd probably be the most logical option due to capacity. Some doubt over where they are going I understand. Any other suggestions?!
 
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WestCoast

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Yes, that would be a very nice idea! I've read though that there is some kind of bizarre restriction on precisely how many days each year the heritage fleet will be in use for. I'm unsure whether that is some ridiculous legislation of some sort, or just an equally daft local decision. The Boat door modification would be, umm, interesting! :o I would have thought a ramp carried on board would be a better solution. Seems to work ok on trains!

Probably something to do with the final DDA. :roll:

I honestly thought that these trams could escape the DDA because of their age, but it seems anything in public service has to comply.

I too am struggling to picture a modified boat car, but I do hope they can do it. :D I wouldn't mind a modified Brush Car as well, but again I wonder if they could do it. Basically, anything that can reasonably be done, should be done if it's not going to a buyer, preservation or the heritage fleet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Any other suggestions?!

At least one single decker should be done, but it will have to be the 64X group as you say.

A twin car? Shame they are all sold I think, I've always liked them for some reason :lol:

I wont be sad to see the Centenaries leave though, good for costs as OMOs in Winter, but I've never liked them at all...
 
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BestWestern

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Well if anybody can manage to rebuild or modify something, it's those boys at Rigby Road! :D I managed a final trip on a Twin Car last month and I must say it was a joy, particularly as I wasn't expecting it to be out and about. Well worth the run across a main road to catch it! I would hope that the DDA makes allowances for heritage and history, though these seem to be all too often out of favour with the pen-pushers who dream these things up. Are the mod Balloons intended to carry wheelchairs by the way? I suppose you could comfortably accomodate one on the platform if need be.

I await the modified Boat with much anticipation! :D
 

bluegoblin7

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Hi guys!

If I may I'd like to tackle some of the points raised by numerous parties in this thread in the hope of shedding some light on some aspects of the tramway upgrade. I don't disagree with a lot of what is said, but I do think that a lot of people are missing the bigger picture. Please don't take that the wrong way as it's true of the majority of 'typical' Blackpool enthusiasts, though each often has their own reasons - the most common of which is simply not knowing the facts. Eek - this is starting to sound bad... it's not meant to be! Moving on!

As I think someone mentioned, the upgrade of the tramway was urgently needed and, whilst not having it would probably have saved the old fleet for a few more years, would likely have ended in either the complete closure of the tramway or a much slimmed down ride along the Prom on increasingly ageing and unreliable tramcars in the not-too-distant future. Remember that the majority of the fleet are getting on for 80+ years old, still with original equipment (And even newer vehicles such as the Centenaries use much older equipment salvaged from scrapped trams!) and certainly not disabled accessible. The tramway infrastructure was in an extremely poor state, highlighted by the double decker bans of the early 2000s, and it was unlikely that the tramway would have kept going for much longer. The Government grant-funded upgrade works, whilst losing some of the 'character' of the system, are at least ensuring its continued survival and allowing some of the old fleet to be retained in both a modified and unmodified condition. It also allows the tramway to remain operating as a public transport system beyond 2020 when the full DDA regulations come into force. Also - can you imagine the uproar if 80 year old buses or trains were still providing every day services? People complain that locals do not use the trams but that is simply because they are so unreliable! Look back into the tram's heyday (Even as recent as the early 2000s) and daily there would be frequent trams to Fleetwood and back largely full. As the service levels declined due to unreliability the custom moved to the Line 1 bus - and if the bus got withdrawn then it's pretty certain that another operator would move in and operate it - at least until the upgrade is complete! BTS have definitely found themselves in a Catch 22 there. Finally on the old fleet... there's the old saying that 'Walter Luff would be turning in his grave if he knew his trams were still running' - remember he was a man of modernisation that was looking to get rid of the Balloons etc after only a 20 year life span with the advent of the ill-fated Coronation vehicles. He'd be welcoming the Supertrams with open arms, and certainly this is no different to new fleet introductions in the 20s (Standards), 30s (Streamliners), 50s (Coronations/Twin cars), 70s (OMOs) and 80s (Centenaries)!

Do remember that the upgrade work is Government-funded and not by the company. For them, then, there is no expenditure to make back and only the operating costs, though of course the taxpayer pays to upgrade the trams then pays to use the trams etc etc! Certainly the fares are frequently commented on as being too high, but it is very much expected that new fare systems in line with the other UK second generation tramways will be introduced from next year onwards. Blackpool Transport will also be operating the trams under contract to the Council (With the trams being in a Council livery) so more regulation may well be enforced - probably a good thing.

It's an urban legend that tourists will wait for a vintage green and cream tram to come along in place of a Centenary or Jubilee - they come to ride a tram, full stop, and very few care what it is. The people that let such vehicles go past are often the purists - 'proper' enthusiasts will get on anything most of the time! A tram ride for novelty value will remain with the new fleet - remember only 5 UK cities currently have tramways, and there are certainly a lot more than 5 cities in the country. It's unlikely that everyone will have experienced modern tram vehicles so the novelty value will still be there - it happens when people visit any of the 5 tram cities already, so the same will be true for Blackpool. Furthermore, I have heard many tourists actually complain about the vintage trams, demanding to know why they are not like Nottingham/Sheffield/Manchester etc. Long gone are the days when people solely identified a tram as a rackety old thing - modern ones are just as much of an appeal.

Do remember also that the advert liveries bring in much-needed revenue for the tramway, and - with the exception of contravision over the windows - are actually well liked by enthusiasts and visitors alike. It's much easier to say to your friends "I rode the Wall's tram and the SEALIFE tram" rather than "two green and cream ones'", for example. They also bring a splash of colour to the tramway in what is becoming an increasingly corporate world, whilst it can also be argued that green and cream is extremely outdated - remember that red, cream and teak lasted for only around 30 years! Other tramway systems went through liveries even quicker - and still do. Metrolink and Tramlink spring to mind.

Nine balloons are to be retained from the end of this year - 700/7/9/11/13/18/9/20/24, whilst 701/23 will also be retained as reserve trams if additional Balloons are needed and 706 and 717 will be retained as heritage cars - for the time being! It changes on a monthly basis as to whether these latter two will be getting doors or not, though skirts are likely for 706 when it gets an overhaul at some stage - a requirement of the Railway Inspectorate. These vehicles are planned to be used on a peak-season Pleasure Beach-Little Bispham/Cleveleys service to bolster the 10 minute Supertram service, though the logistics for this are proving difficult to solve so watch this space.

The Centenary and Jubilee trams look like buses because there was nothing else to do in the 70s and 80s when they were built. The former were built by a company that had only dealt with buses whilst the latter in house by Blackpool Transport. As a concept they were actually very successful, and it was only down to money that further Balloons were not converted into the one-man-operated trams. Nothing to do with the concept being a failure - very much the opposite. Indeed, the OMO trams of the seventies saved the tramway by cutting costs. The heritage nature of the system has always been understood (Why else would we have trams preserved from 1884 and 1898?) but it has never been a goal of the system which is first and foremost a public transport method. Yes vintage trams have operated but only ever on specials and over limited segments at one time. Plus, as I have already said, it is the novelty of riding on a tram, not a double deck Balloon car, that people look for. They'll get on a Jubilee if it comes because it is a tram!

You raise a good point with the Millenniums which are a showcase as to what a modern Blackpool fleet could look like. It's actually quite widely accepted that the design is modern and stylish, but certainly not at the expense of 1930s art deco streamline. (Though personally I disagree!) Would a new build fleet of those satisfy needs? I think so.

Conductors and 'the conductor experience' will be retained on the new system, though you seem to be mistaking the conductors for some elsewhere! The majority - at least on the tramway today - are interested only in breaks and going home, offering near zero customer service. Conductors are also present on the Nottingham NET and Sheffield Supertram, so are by no means unique.

The Jubilee trams are also not structurally unsound, so I don't know what you've been looking at either! Tired - yes - but then so is all the fleet. The underframes are straighter than nearly every Balloon car (as they were lengthened in the right place - the middle - and had some remedial work when they were overhauled) are much better than most Balloons all round, actually. 761 is just extremely unreliable electrically.



The most modified Balloons that have ever been mooted are 10, and realistically it's unlikely to even reach that. 701 and 723 are being retained but will probably never receive the work, it being much cheaper and better value for money to fit them to also-retained 717 if it comes to it, which is already fully refurbished and not needing any rebuild work apart from the 'porches' bolting on. 600 & 602 are both also rumoured to get widened platforms and driver operated doors, though this is only a rumour at this stage and I must stress is not confirmed (but not denied, either) by Blackpool Transport! Indeed - 602 may never carry passengers again, the only refurbished and serviceable Boat being 600.

It is certainly looking likely that there will be a 'relaunch' of the Circular Tour from days gone by during the summer months, operating from a fixed point to a fixed point (North Pier-Little Bispham-Pleasure Beach-North Pier) during the summer months utilising the retained vintage fleet. This will certainly include Standard 147, Coronation 660, Balloon 706, and possibly also Bolton 66 and Standard 143. The Stockport car will be leaving Blackpool for a new home imminently, whilst Box 40 will probably never run in Blackpool again as it is does not contain air brakes or electric windscreen wipers, and, due to being a Museum car rather than a 'vintage' car (owned by the Tramway Museum Society as part of the National Collection) will probably not receive the necessary low voltage modifications to allow it to run. It's widely expected that the car will move to the TMS store at Clay Cross, though this is not confirmed. Please see my fleet list summary in another thread for a full list of what will be staying and what won't. The toastrack tram, assuming you mean B&F 2, was visiting only for the 125th Anniversary celebrations last year on loan from the TMS, and is unlikely to return to Blackpool again for similar reasons to Box 40. Replica Vanguard 619, a sort-of-but-not-quite 'toastrack' has passed to the Manchester Tramway Museum Society at Heaton Park.

Any non-disabled accessible vehicle - be it tram, train or bus - will be limited by law to 20 days service - not including private hires or possibly pre-bookable 'service' tours - each year under the DDA from 2020 onwards. This is not set by Blackpool Transport.

The Boats would not be suitable to carry ramps due largely to a lack of space on board to store them out of the way. Any trams without modifications will also be unable to stop at the new platforms, and a ramp would be too steep from street level. Remember too that trams have shorter dwell times than trains, and when there's a Flexity following time cannot be wasted getting ramps in and out! Similar reasons for the driver operated doors being added. The extensions will likely take on a half-height version of the doors seen on the Balloon trams.

The Brush cars would all be suitable for gaining widened doors in a similar fashion to the Balloon cars, suitably modified, however none are being retained for service use by Blackpool Transport due to their low capacity. Neither the Centenaries nor Jubilees would be suitable for conversion for a large number of reasons, notably their step entrances and narrow aisleways. They're also passenger flow cars so you board at the front and alight at the middle, meaning both doors would need to be treated. However this is neither an option nor going to happen as none of either class will be retained by BTS - 644/6/8 confirmed sold, 641/7 being negotiated and 761/2 also sold. 761 for a new Museum in Fleetwood and 762 for the National Collection if accepted - otherwise to a private individual. No uncertainty with them I can assure you!

In summary, as another point raised it, every tram that could be feasibly modified is being so - all others are sold or retained as vintage cars.

All 6 twin sets are sold, though only buyers for two are currently publicly announced - Set 2 to Crich and Set 6 to the LTT. Set 1 is reserved for Merseytravel and Set 3 by a known private individual, though these have not been publicly announced as yet as I say. The twins are also very much out of favour as they are (allegedly!) slow and require a good crew to operate well. They also take double the maintenance and double the expenditure owing to the fact that most things are duplicated.

I think that's everything!

Jack
 

WestCoast

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I agree with much of what you are saying.

Don't get me wrong. I am probably not a typical enthusiast of the Blackpool Tramway, since I like "EuroPlastic" as BestWestern put it, as I like all the modern systems in the UK and the older European systems (with a mixture of trams) like Amsterdam. I recognise the urgent need for modernisation and I actually am looking forward to riding the new trams! Having said that I was never fan of the Centenaries, but there you go.

Blackpool will be the world launch of the Flexity 2, so everyone will be watching closely. I wouldn't have minded them going for the Alstom Citadis instead, but others may disagree.

I have read some (valid) concerns about the seating on the new trams, and whether there is enough of it. One of the major complaints about modern tram vehicles is that they don't have enough seats! I can't see that going down well with the hordes of pensioners who currently use the number one bus and are used to getting (or demanding) a seat.

However, I notice that the Flexity 2 have 74 seats, which is good as its more than a Centenary and just less than 10 fewer than a Balloon. A lot more standing space for short hops, although I reckon two conductors will still be needed in the summer on the central section. Nottingham Conductors often struggle due to the length of the tram.

They will still have the double deckers, which operate on only 3 services in the world in public service. They are only in service in Hong Kong, Alexandria in Egypt, and Blackpool. That's still going to be a major draw.

I am glad there are plans to lower the fares, they need to be incorporated in the Blackpool Transport Day Saver that is offered at PayPoint agents. They could increase this from £3.30 to £3.50 or £3.70 - something around the Stagecoach Sheffield tram/bus ticket level perhaps. No way is £6.00 acceptable, nor will it be tolerated by locals.

It might seem odd that I am making a big deal out of the fares, but the reliability and fares have been the two issues that have been the driving force behind the "tram to bus" switch.

In 50 years time, the Bombardier trams will be "heritage"....;)
 
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WatcherZero

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RE the Tram doors opening while in motion incident recently, do they not have deadbolts to prevent the doors from opening while in motion like other recent tram doors? Also seeing a few of the widened baloons I think the new doors actually look quite good, breaking up the rather bus like sides.
 

BestWestern

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Thanks Jack for your highly informed perspective. Whilst I am obviously of the 'purist' category - up to point anyway! - I do of course appreciate that the ageing system was in need of some modern input, and of course the dear old Balloons etc couldn't have gone on forever. Having said that however, my main gripe is the crazy sums of money which have been spent on a tramway system which has such an unstable financial overview. I still feel very strongly that this might easily be the undoing of the whole project, and that with BT's proven engineering abilities, other solutions ought to have been sought. This still smacks of being a vanity project, and a massive overspend. I hope that the 'new' system is a success, but I for one would rather see a cut down 'tourist' operation along the prom during the season only, than the whole thing being an economic failure in 10 years time with very little in the way of a future. Let's hope that doesn't happen!
 

northwichcat

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Indeed, this seems to be where it is all so very backward; the trams are expensive to ride due to them being very pricey to run, and because the revenue only flows during the season. Blackpool Tranny have always got away with this because most of the punters are tourists. They have the money to spend, and you want a ride on a Blackpool tram while you're there, don't you?! They're a novelty, a bit special.

However, in spending a fortune on all this regen crapola, the costs now needing to be recovered are incredible. The only way that will ever have a cat in hell's chance of happening is through higher fares income. It will still always be seasonal, so they now need to get the locals on them out of season. But the only way the locals will ever start to use them is if the fares are drastically lowered! So how the hell is that going to bloody well work?! On top of that there is the minor technicality that any trade won from the buses represents a loss for the other arm of the same company, oh dear! And I still maintain that the tourist revenue will drop over time too, as people turn up expecting to see the 'old fashioned' trams that will still be depicted on T-towels, postcards and novelty tat for years to come, only to find a dull lump of Europlastic hums up to the stop - "Hold on, they're the same trams we've got at home. Well sod that then, I'm not paying a fiver for a go on one of them" etc.

Somebody has made a cock-up of truly epic proportions with all of this, I can see it being a financial ball and chain around Blackpool's neck for decades to come :roll:

The new trams are not completely replacing the old. The November-Easter service will be exclusively new trams but for the rest of the year the double deckers will run alongside the new trams. I'm guessing the new trams will run up to Fleetwood while the double deckers will turn around at Bispham.

The 3 illuminated trams for tours of the Blackpool Illuminations will obviously remain. These are the ones that really make the tourists go 'wow' even though the actual trams are very old.

I would have liked to have seen new double decker trams but you should remember there's only a few tram systems in the UK - any tram is exciting to a lot of children.
 

bluegoblin7

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I agree with much of what you are saying.

Don't get me wrong. I am probably not a typical enthusiast of the Blackpool Tramway, since I like "EuroPlastic" as BestWestern put it, as I like all the modern systems in the UK and the older European systems (with a mixture of trams) like Amsterdam. I recognise the urgent need for modernisation and I actually am looking forward to riding the new trams! Having said that I was never fan of the Centenaries, but there you go.

Blackpool will be the world launch of the Flexity 2, so everyone will be watching closely. I wouldn't have minded them going for the Alstom Citadis instead, but others may disagree.

I have read some (valid) concerns about the seating on the new trams, and whether there is enough of it. One of the major complaints about modern tram vehicles is that they don't have enough seats! I can't see that going down well with the hordes of pensioners who currently use the number one bus and are used to getting (or demanding) a seat.

However, I notice that the Flexity 2 have 74 seats, which is good as its more than a Centenary and just less than 10 fewer than a Balloon. A lot more standing space for short hops, although I reckon two conductors will still be needed in the summer on the central section. Nottingham Conductors often struggle due to the length of the tram.

They will still have the double deckers, which operate on only 3 services in the world in public service. They are only in service in Hong Kong, Alexandria in Egypt, and Blackpool. That's still going to be a major draw.

I am glad there are plans to lower the fares, they need to be incorporated in the Blackpool Transport Day Saver that is offered at PayPoint agents. They could increase this from £3.30 to £3.50 or £3.70 - something around the Stagecoach Sheffield tram/bus ticket level perhaps. No way is £6.00 acceptable, nor will it be tolerated by locals.

It might seem odd that I am making a big deal out of the fares, but the reliability and fares have been the two issues that have been the driving force behind the "tram to bus" switch.

In 50 years time, the Bombardier trams will be "heritage"....;)

Regarding the choice of the Flexity 2, I think it came down to being the launch customer and that Bombardier have a very good reputation over here - with trams there's Nottingham's Incentros, Croydon's CR4000s and Manchester's M5000s. The Citadis is yet to operate in Britain (But will appear with the NET extensions) so I believe was a factor. Not sure though - and can't comment as I've never experienced one.

As you rightly point out, the Flexities have a similar number of seats (when averaged out) to the current fleet, with more standing room, and personally with one every ten minutes - plus the widened Balloon cars in between - I can't see seats and capacity every being an issue, particularly with pensioners as the only time that the buses and tramway have historically been used en masse has been for Fleetwood Market. In all honesty we'll have to wait and see as it comes down to the fact that no-one really knows how the new trams will go down once here due to the nature of the tramway (as I mentioned in my initial post!).

The trams are going to be operated by just one conductor and it remains to be seen if any more than that are employed. Nottingham actually quite rarely use two conductors on board and instead tend to opt for additional conductors stop based on the busiest stops, or when additional conductors are used they rove - but sadly not for much longer as they are due to be phased out under the new consortium. :( Be interesting to see how Blackpool cope though in practice the second conductor at the moment is really only there to open and close the doors rather than sell tickets! Depends on loadings.

You raise an excellent point about there being only three cities with double-deck trams in the world, a number which is looking likely to fall as more and more double deck trams are being removed from Alexandria as the system itself continues to fall into disrepair. I think it is overlooked by many with the upgrade that there will be at least 9 Balloons and hopefully 2 Standards still in operation on the tramway.

I can't say for sure what will happen with fares but it certainly looks that way. From an enthusiasts' and journalist's point of view, BTS are very much running the tramway down this year so that the new service next year looks even better - something commonly done on railways throughout history I understand. There are calls to introduce a flat fare single ticket and flat fare return ticket anywhere on the system, as well as an all day ticket to serve the needs of us enthusiasts! Something like the fare system in Nottingham would work extremely well, as it simplifies things - particularly for tourists. Again, though, as with most things, we need to wait and see, sadly.

Very much doubt the Flexities will be with us in 50 years! One might be in a Museum somewhere, but I expect they'll be long replaced. And no - I don't expect that the Balloons will still be in front line service either, unless they have been completely upgraded...

RE the Tram doors opening while in motion incident recently, do they not have deadbolts to prevent the doors from opening while in motion like other recent tram doors? Also seeing a few of the widened baloons I think the new doors actually look quite good, breaking up the rather bus like sides.

I'm not entirely sure but I don't think that they do have dead bolts - can't see it anyway. The new doors are one point where my technical knowledge lacks at the moment sadly, as I'm yet to see them in the flesh nor have I had any in depth discussions about them - except for the fact that there are too many problems with them! I certainly agree that the 'porches' and doors actually look quite good, though certainly disagree with the 'bus like' sides of the Balloon cars! 641-8 and 761/2 yes, Balloons... Nooo! Art deco brilliance! (Albeit modernised.)

Thanks Jack for your highly informed perspective. Whilst I am obviously of the 'purist' category - up to point anyway! - I do of course appreciate that the ageing system was in need of some modern input, and of course the dear old Balloons etc couldn't have gone on forever. Having said that however, my main gripe is the crazy sums of money which have been spent on a tramway system which has such an unstable financial overview. I still feel very strongly that this might easily be the undoing of the whole project, and that with BT's proven engineering abilities, other solutions ought to have been sought. This still smacks of being a vanity project, and a massive overspend. I hope that the 'new' system is a success, but I for one would rather see a cut down 'tourist' operation along the prom during the season only, than the whole thing being an economic failure in 10 years time with very little in the way of a future. Let's hope that doesn't happen!

Not a problem at all - really hope it all came across in the way it was intended and I didn't want to offend anyone etc. There's nothing wrong with being a 'purist' as I call it (And I am myself on some points to an extent) and if we all liked the same things it'd be boring! I think when the sum of money is taken into account it also has to be remembered that the tramway has had very little money put into the infrastructure for a very long time, and the last new trams were in the 80s - and before that the rebuilt OMO cars in 70s. We're therefore, by necessity, seeing a sum of money more comparable with a new system having to be spent, rather than what might only be 'upgrade costs' which will likely be seen (And have been seen) on Britain's other light rail networks. I think, had we seen more investment, the sum would certainly be less - but of course no-one knows for sure. I don't disagree at all that new trams could (And probably should) have been constructed in house - BT's workshops are one of only a handful of places in the world capable of building a brand new tram from scratch, something that will be lost next year) and certainly speaking as a volunteer at Crich we wish we had the facilities at Rigby Road! We manage with the limited facilities we have, but there are some things that we can't do on site that Blackpool can. Crich are held in wide esteem worldwide for their abilities, but certainly the UK view is that they are second to Blackpool. I very much agree that a cut down tourist system is the way to go - and something I see happening not too far down the line - but I am 100% certain that if the system did not get upgraded then there would be no tramway at all in under 5 years time due to the lack of TLC given to it. As it is, the system is getting an extended lease of life in full with the upgrade works, and allowing the option of a curtailment in length (and the selling on of the Flexity vehicles) should the operation not prove to be viable - which I certainly don't think it will be. But - as ever - the motto is very much 'wait and see', sadly!

The new trams are not completely replacing the old. The November-Easter service will be exclusively new trams but for the rest of the year the double deckers will run alongside the new trams. I'm guessing the new trams will run up to Fleetwood while the double deckers will turn around at Bispham.

The 3 illuminated trams for tours of the Blackpool Illuminations will obviously remain. These are the ones that really make the tourists go 'wow' even though the actual trams are very old.

I would have liked to have seen new double decker trams but you should remember there's only a few tram systems in the UK - any tram is exciting to a lot of children.

I mentioned the rumoured service pattern of the Balloons in my post above - they are expected to turn at Little Bispham or Cleveleys as opposed to Bispham (More likely the latter) as it is already an established service path for the trams and 'works'. Of course, though, I think we will see a number of experiments before settling down as the Balloons are slower than the Flexities once they get onto the reserved section!

Correct on the three Illuminated trams, whilst the Rocket is also expected to stay though the future is still unknown - plans keep resurfacing every couple of months at the moment. The Illuminations tours will likely take on a slightly different format, but again we can only speculate and it remains to be confirmed what will happen. Certainly though I disagree that they make people 'wow' more than any other tram as they are only out for limited amounts of time and actually once you get on them (excepting the Western Train Carriage) they are even more bus like than other vehicles. Again, my experience has seen many complaints at the Illuminated vehicles from all ages rather than 'wows', which normally come most from any double decker.

Finally, as I think I mentioned above also, Standard 147, Boat 600, Balloon 706, Coronation 660 etc will also all be retained to supplement the Illuminated cars and widened Balloons for tours and high days - what is expected to be a premium fare 'tour' operating during daylight and switching to the Illuminations tour after dark in that period... but again, only speculation at this stage.

Hope this helps.

Jack
 

WatcherZero

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When you do get a chance to ride them you should be able to tell if the doors have them or not by listening, there will be a clunk or click sound everytime the tram comes to a stop which is the deadbolts releasing.
 

northwichcat

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Certainly though I disagree that they make people 'wow' more than any other tram as they are only out for limited amounts of time and actually once you get on them (excepting the Western Train Carriage) they are even more bus like than other vehicles.

When people see an illuminated tram turn up it's one of the few times I've heard someone actually say 'wow' when they see a mode of transport approaching and people driving up and down the front when the illuminations are on even pull over to photograph the illuminated trams.

I've not heard people say 'wow' when a M5000 tram approaches in Manchester - usually it's along the lines of either "Look it's one of the new trams" or "Oh no it's one of those trams with about 10 seats on board"
 

snail

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When people see an illuminated tram turn up it's one of the few times I've heard someone actually say 'wow' when they see a mode of transport approaching and people driving up and down the front when the illuminations are on even pull over to photograph the illuminated trams.
I'm with you on this. It's a bit like the steam train effect for me. I love watching them steam past, but the thought of spending hours on a Mk.1 coach behind one gives me no satisfaction.

When I first saw the trams as a kid I didn't realise they were real underneath the lights! I thought they were just part of the illuminations spectacle. Which, in so many ways, is just what they are and why they should stay.
 

WestCoast

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Regarding the choice of the Flexity 2, I think it came down to being the launch customer and that Bombardier have a very good reputation over here - with trams there's Nottingham's Incentros, Croydon's CR4000s and Manchester's M5000s. The Citadis is yet to operate in Britain (But will appear with the NET extensions) so I believe was a factor. Not sure though - and can't comment as I've never experienced one.

I've been on Alstom Citadis trams in Dublin (the entire LUAS network uses them), Madrid, Paris and Santa Cruz, Tenerife. I personally preferred them to Bombardier's latest offerings but I am not sure what their technical record is like.

The trams are going to be operated by just one conductor and it remains to be seen if any more than that are employed. Nottingham actually quite rarely use two conductors on board and instead tend to opt for additional conductors stop based on the busiest stops, or when additional conductors are used they rove - but sadly not for much longer as they are due to be phased out under the new consortium. :( Be interesting to see how Blackpool cope though in practice the second conductor at the moment is really only there to open and close the doors rather than sell tickets! Depends on loadings.

The issue of conductors is a rather interesting one actually, possibly overlooked by some. In past decades, the tramway has strived to reduce costs with the OMO cars, Centenaries and Jubilee cars, which offered the chance to minimise costs in the Winter through only paying for one member of staff per service. In the Summer, these cars could also operate with conductors.

Now, a conductor has to be used on every service, right throughout the year. That's a good thing for local employment and customer service, but it could impact on costs. I have no doubt though that a proof-of-payment system would be inappropriate in Blackpool.

Modern EuroTrams, like the Flexity 2, are designed for One Man Operation, but not in the traditional sense of the word! The large numbers of doors, separate driving cab and standing areas show, to me, that they aren't really designed for roving conductors. That's not to say they can't work with them.

Nottingham has struggled a little bit with uncollected fares when the trams are rammed, they seem very reluctant to put extra conductors on, instead putting conductors at a few key stops in the peaks. Nottingham are allegedly thinking of scraping conductors, with their extensions, and pursuing Oyster-style smartcard ticketing instead. Sheffield puts 2 and even 3 conductors on when it's really busy and it does seem to work. Perhaps because the Sheffield trams have more places to sit, so passengers aren't blocking the passage of a conductor?

Amsterdam being the major European exception to proof-of-payment as they re-introduced seated conductors in the 90s. They have adapted Siemens Combino trams where boarding passengers must either pass the driver or seated conductor to pay a fare or swipe in their smartcard. It does work, and in theory it would allow OMO operation in the winter (seated conductor not present), but it's not right for Blackpool either, since you've got to think of the Balloons too.

What does all this mean for Blackpool? Since the central section gets extremely busy in summer, it might be worth thinking about the various ways of making sure revenue is collected. The Balloons are difficult to manage too, and I have seen 3 conductors at busy times.
 
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BestWestern

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Originally posted by bluegoblin7

"The Boats would not be suitable to carry ramps due largely to a lack of space on board to store them out of the way. Any trams without modifications will also be unable to stop at the new platforms, and a ramp would be too steep from street level. Remember too that trams have shorter dwell times than trains, and when there's a Flexity following time cannot be wasted getting ramps in and out! Similar reasons for the driver operated doors being added. The extensions will likely take on a half-height version of the doors seen on the Balloon trams."

I am curious as your comments about the Driver-operated doors being intended to speed things up; I have to say that wasn't my experience when riding the operational rebuilt cars last month. If anything, it seems to have increased dwell times considerably. Was this modification a requirement or just BT's preference? As for unmodified cars not using platforms, surely this is daft? The step from an unmodified car to the platforms would clearly be substantially less distance than the step to the pavement below?!

I'm fascinated by how the Driver-operated doors would take shape on a Boat, I look forward to seeing this! As for the ramps issue, a flat ramp as found on a Class 143 train ought to fit somewhere onboard I'd have thought, and shouldn't take too long to deploy and replace. Surely one will surely still be required to bridge the gap from platform to 'porch' even on the modified cars?

Something else which makes me curious too, do you have any ideas on why 700 was 'porched' rather than remaining as the obvious Heritage Balloon choice, when 717 has already had the front end skirt treatment? Seemed a slightly odd decision!

Cheers, BW.
 
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