Most Inappropriate Stock

[A0]

If only bi-mode had been an option back then. That said, could you not have put a 43 on one end of the formation permanently?

Problem with bi-mode is you really need to be able to shut down the diesel unit, and a large diesel unit e.g an HST power unit is very heavy, so you'd have impacted the performance of the overall set. According to Wikipedia a DVT weighs circa 40 tonnes compared to an HST power car at 70 tonnes. That, or you run with a diesel engine active under the wires - which seems to attract the ire of a number of posters round here.

The HST power cars used as DVTs were only ever a temporary measure whilst the genuine DVTs were built - and it probably worked as the 91 sets were replacing the HST turns on the ECML. I believe it was always planned that the HSTs made redundant from the ECML were to be cascaded to allow other, older stock to be withdrawn.
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Worst one for me a 153 on a peak service between Northampton and Shrewsbury was cancelled at Birmingham International due to overcrowding

But that had to be a one-off?

I've never seen a 153 out of Northampton, and DMUs only appear in service around Northampton when there are major problems - I think the last time was when the whole of the 321 fleet was grounded about 5 years ago - which led to no end of strange workings.

 

[Eric]

Using pacers on the Leeds - Morecambe line (over two hours) is just about as bad as it can get IMO.

 

[A0]

Using pacers on the Leeds - Morecambe line (over two hours) is just about as bad as it can get IMO.

Whilst it's a long journey, it is very much a secondary line linking minor places - I don't imagine there are that many people who use it for the full end to end journey. And it's a long journey because it doesn't go by a direct route and calls at every stop along the way.

Anyone wanting to travel from Leeds to Morecambe (or Lancaster) is probably far better off travelling via Preston and I doubt they'd get a Pacer on that journey.

 

[Waverley125]

single 150 on the Harrogate line out of Leeds tonight. At least 100% overcrowding if not worse. An absolute shambles.

 

[Arriva158]

1709 Birmingham Intl - Holyhead is booked a 4-car 158 but on Monday turned up a single 158 due to a failure at Pwhelli and was absolutely rammed and is full/standing when a 4-car so you can imagine the 2 car fun!

 

[Whistler40145]

I recently witnessed @ Kirkham & Wesham a 142+153 combination on a Blackpool South to Colne service, how useless as the 142 has no end connection!

 

[northwichcat]

In fairness, when the ECML scheme was done (back under BR), there was no daytime Leeds - Nottingham service (just the token HST placing journeys to/from Neville Hill).

That doesn't mean anything. Passenger demand is very different now to what it was under BR.

 

[158_Sprinter]

I've also seen 150's for a Cardiff Central - Holyhead service which seems a bit pathetic for such a long journey (though I recognise that most people using that service probably won't be making the whole journey).

I have used a Cardiff - Holyhead service between Shrewsbury and Chester, served by a 150.
It emptied out at Shrewsbury and didn't fill up again until Wrexham, then emptied again at Chester.

So I think the unit may not have been so inappropriate for the service it was performing, when I was using it anyway.

 

[Zoe]

This is going to be controversial but would there be any savings by ripping up the wires north of Newcastle and using bi-mode IEP for Edinburgh? With climate change concerns this really isn't going to be an option but would be interested to know if there would be financial savings through not having to maintain the electric infrastructure.

 

[northwichcat]

I have used a Cardiff - Holyhead service between Shrewsbury and Chester, served by a 150.
It emptied out at Shrewsbury and didn't fill up again until Wrexham, then emptied again at Chester.

So I think the unit may not have been so inappropriate for the service it was performing, when I was using it anyway.

Whatever WAG thinks very few people want to do North Wales-Cardiff.

 

[Whistler40145]

How many years did it take to get permission for electrifying the ECML & now you want it reversed.

Wouldn't it be more harmful to the environment to have more Diesel power running north of Newcastle?

 

[Zoe]

How many years did it take to get permission for electrifying the ECML & now you want it reversed.

Wouldn't it be more harmful to the environment to have more Diesel power running north of Newcastle?

No I don't want it reversed, for environmental reasons it should not be. What I am asking is if there would be any savings from a financial point of view.

 

[Whistler40145]

That should be decided by the price of Electricity versus Diesel

 

[junglejames]

This is going to be controversial but would there be any savings by ripping up the wires north of Newcastle and using bi-mode IEP for Edinburgh? With climate change concerns this really isn't going to be an option but would be interested to know if there would be financial savings through not having to maintain the electric infrastructure.

Didnt Chris Garnett once say he would happily rip down the wires north of Newcastle?
Your idea isnt as daft as it sounds. Although wouldnt want it now as we are now getting these funny hitachi things. Too much underfloor rumbling. Plus, can they go 125 on diesel? If not, then they would be no good north of Newcastle on diesel.
If it wasnt for the IEPs, there is a lot of sense in that idea.

 

[sprinterguy]

Didnt Chris Garnett once say he would happily rip down the wires north of Newcastle?

I remember that the suggestion was discussed at some length in RAIL Magazine in 2002/3. For the sake of the number of diesel services that run over that section of line (At least 50%, quite probably a bit more) the OHLE is used quite inefficiently. Though IMO this only strengthens the case for further electrification: To Aberdeen for the ECML HST services and down the MML for the Crosscountry services (which could be "bi-moded").

I don't agree with new build bi-mode stock. It only acts as an incentive to not do a proper job of electrification projects IMO, and is completely unsuited to the GWML operation I think. However the conversion of existing trains that have the capability of being bi-mode and are too short at the moment on the Crosscountry network which bisects a mix of electrified and unelectrified routes seems like a much more suitable proposition.

It should be about reducing the proportion of diesels under the wires, not increasing them (albeit switched off) for the sake of a final few tens of miles of route that no-one could be bothered to electrify.

Of course, halting electrification at Newcastle would have been politically unpalatable at the time of electrification, let alone cutting it back twenty years on when Scotland has increased independance and a voice of its' own, but theoretically there might have been some savings from stopping short at Newcastle with the number of diesel services on the route north of there.

 

[Zoe]

I don't agree with new build bi-mode stock. It only acts as an incentive to not do a proper job of electrification projects IMO

I'm not sure about that as the IEP can easily be converted into an EMU as and when further electrification is done. It allows new trains to be introduced immediately rather than have to wait for electrification.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree sprinterguy. It's only because both Edinburgh-Inverness/Aberdeen aren't electrified that HSTs run through from London, otherwise we would see a 91 at Montrose or Aviemore!

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not sure about that as the IEP can easily be converted into an EMU as and when further electrification is done. It allows new trains to be introduced immediately rather than have to wait for electrification.

But would they be converted though? Or would the DfT and the TOCs be content to make do with what they had in place and leave it at that, rather than proposing extension of electrification. There are many examples in the recent history of Britains' railways that have shown that the former has been the case (Additional carriages for 185s and Voyagers, etc).

 

[Zoe]

I agree sprinterguy. It's only because both Edinburgh-Inverness/Aberdeen aren't electrified that HSTs run through from London, otherwise we would see a 91 at Montrose or Aviemore!

But some HST services only run or at least did only run as far as Edinburgh, entirely under the wires. If they had ordered more 225s then it would have been a possiblity to swap the 91 for a diesel locomotive at Edinburgh for Aberdeen and Inverness. When I asked about this once I was told at the time there wasn't anywhere else for all the HSTs to go so that's why they were retained on the ECML.
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There are many examples in the recent history of Britains' railways that have shown that the former has been the case (Additional carriages for 185s and Voyagers, etc).

I don't know about the 185s but with the Voyagers at least OPRAF had been replaced by the SRA by the time Virgin wanted to extend them. The SRA had a different way of doing things and blocked it. This likely won't be the case for the IEP as the DfT is likely to remain in direct control for a long time.

 

[sprinterguy]

But some HST services only run or at least did only run as far as Edinburgh, entirely under the wires. If they had ordered more 225s then it would have been a possiblity to swap the 91 for a diesel locomotive at Edinburgh for Aberdeen and Inverness. When I asked about this once I was told at the time there wasn't anywhere else for all the HSTs to go so that's why they were retained on the ECML.

Yep, there's currently four ECML weekday HST diagrams that run entirely under the wires.

I'm sure that in the late eighties there were thoughts of having a thiry five train order for IC225s, which we could certainly do with now to get a bit more utility out of the wires. But of course at the time it was more cost effective to retain HSTs and have a smaller IC225 order, and obviously there are a far greater number of trains operated by East Coast now than when the 225s were introduced.
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This likely won't be the case for the IEP as the DfT is likely to remain in direct control for a long time.

I'm not even sure of that. The more I learn of the UK rail industry, the more sceptical I am about sensible decisions being made. It's a shame really.

 

[Zoe]

I'm not even sure of that. The more I learn of the UK rail industry, the more sceptical I am about sensible decisions being made. It's a shame really.

Franchising has so far been done by OPRAF, the SRA and now directly by the DfT. Who else could you give franchising to though, Network Rail? An indpendent Railways Agency?

 

[sprinterguy]

Franchising has so far been done by OPRAF, the SRA and now directly by the DfT. Who else could you give franchising to though, Network Rail? An indpendent Railways Agency?

I have no idea, but the goalposts have been moved enough over the course of the last fifteen years. Hopefully the railways are entering into a period of relative stability now, but I remain wary.

 

[Zoe]

I have no idea, but the goalposts have been moved enough over the course of the last fifteen years. Hopefully the railways are entering into a period of relative stability now, but I remain wary.

It would be helpful if they wouldn't keep redrawing the franchise map every few years.

 

[sprinterguy]

It would be helpful if they wouldn't keep redrawing the franchise map every few years.

Yes, that'd be nice. There have got to be better ways than the current trial and error process that causes so much upheaval "on the ground" to assess the best franchise model to adopt.

 

[Zoe]

Yes, that'd be nice. There have got to be better ways than the current trial and error process that causes so much upheaval "on the ground" to assess the best franchise model to adopt.

It will be interesting to see if the winner of the new West Coast franchise runs anything above the minimum service specification. I believe this will be the first time in a few years where the TOC will have some freedom and not just be required to run to a strict franchise specification.

 

[90019]

That should be decided by the price of Electricity versus Diesel

You'd have to take into account the cost of building and maintaining the infrastructure as well.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure about that as the IEP can easily be converted into an EMU as and when further electrification is done. It allows new trains to be introduced immediately rather than have to wait for electrification.

Why would you want to convert though? Having the dual power option allows trains to run not replacement buses when engineering works close the usual electrified route. It also has the advantage of during a power cut not leaving passengers stranded on a train in the middle of no-where.

 

[Zoe]

Why would you want to convert though? Having the dual power option allows trains to run not replacement buses when engineering works close the usual electrified route. It also has the advantage of during a power cut not leaving passengers stranded on a train in the middle of no-where.

The EMU IEP will still have an emergency diesel engine. If Cardiff to Swansea is electrified there would be little point in carting around the underfloor engines that would very rarely be used. I would expect that an emergency diesel engine would be fitted at this time if there is not already one on the train.

 

[Drsatan]

The EMU IEP will still have an emergency diesel engine. If Cardiff to Swansea is electrified there would be little point in carting around the underfloor engines that would very rarely be used. I would expect that an emergency diesel engine would be fitted at this time if there is not already one on the train.

It would make more sense to remove the backup diesel engine and electrify all the way to Swansea, along with any depots (e.g. Canton and St Phillips Marsh) and carriage sidings they use. Doing so would make such places 'future proof' when electric traction is used more extensively.

 

[Whistler40145]

I say if the wires are there, use them & if a short section exists that isn't wired, get it wired.