January Fares

[animationmilo]

When do you think we can find out exact prices of the fare rises in January on NationalRail.co.uk ?

Thanks

 

[michael769]

Good question?

I have already preserved a screenshot of national rail's quote for my annual season ticket starting Jan 1st (don't worry I'm getting mine on the 31st!).

 

[First class]

Good question?

I have already preserved a screenshot of national rail's quote for my annual season ticket starting Jan 1st (don't worry I'm getting mine on the 31st!).

Why?

It will be the price at the station that matters, regardless of any piece of paper!

Would you not prefer to tell us what the season is so we can advise on potentially cheaper options?

November 11th is the final cut of date to enter fares into NFFW forming NFM11 (after that individual flows can be altered in the mainframe until Dec 2, but any Pricing Manager knows that would take months to do all the fares that way, after Nov 11 it will only be anomalies and after thoughts being corrected mainly).

See this table:

 

[Prodigy]

DAMN! This will be a problem for me considering my student loan doesn't go in until the 12th of January. Goodbye extra spending money .

 

[First class]

DAMN! This will be a problem for me considering my student loan doesn't go in until the 12th of January. Goodbye extra spending money .

What ticket is it and will get the 2012 fare for you?

 

[animationmilo]

What ticket is it and will get the 2012 fare for you?

How much will the super-off-peak single from Swansea to London be if you have access
its currently £40

 

[Prodigy]

What ticket is it and will get the 2012 fare for you?

Mossley to Bolton 3 months.

 

[First class]

Mossley to Bolton 3 months.

That is a PTE fare, (but Northern is the fare manager).

Either way, £249 is for 3 months. No fare increase has been applied (yet). If one is applied, (using what NT seem to be doing), add about £15.

You would have to buy them monthly though.

 

[Prodigy]

That is a PTE fare, (but Northern is the fare manager).

Either way, £249 is for 3 months. No fare increase has been applied (yet). If one is applied, (using what NT seem to be doing), add about £15.

You would have to buy them monthly though.

Wait so buying monthly works out cheaper than getting it for a 3 month block which cost me £274.20 the last time around?

 

[First class]

Wait so buying monthly works out cheaper than getting it for a 3 month block which cost me £274.20 the last time around?

Yep. Lets you go anywhere in Greater Manchester too

Have a look here

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr93c0eaeb9d4653b48ac9b0307154fb/details.html

Map here

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/manag...3b48ac9b0307154fb/areaMap/GMPTE-Traincard.pdf

(Valid on all TOCs in the area)

 

[Prodigy]

Yep. Lets you go anywhere in Greater Manchester too

Have a look here

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr93c0eaeb9d4653b48ac9b0307154fb/details.html

Map here

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/manag...3b48ac9b0307154fb/areaMap/GMPTE-Traincard.pdf

(Valid on all TOCs in the area)

Wow, thanks, that may be worth looking into. At the moment I can only travel to Stations between Mossley and Bolton but being able to travel to anywhere within the GMPTE zone, even if it's not between Mossley and Bolton, would be awesome

 

[michael769]

Why?

Why? Because it is illegal and breaches the Advertising code to knowingly advertise prices that will not be honoured.

IMO If NR know that most fares will be changing and do not know what to then they should not be advertising those fares!

It will be the price at the station that matters, regardless of any piece of paper!

The ASA would probably disagree with that, as would Trading Standards! I know they do not sell the tickets directly, but they are authorised representatives and acting on the behalf of those who do.

 

[Dewedin]

Why? Because it is illegal and breaches the Advertising code to knowingly advertise prices that will not be honoured.

IMO If NR know that most fares will be changing and do not know what to then they should not be advertising those fares!



The ASA would probably disagree with that, as would Trading Standards! I know they do not sell the tickets directly, but they are authorised representatives and acting on the behalf of those who do.

It is not advertising when it's on your own website.

 

[bnm]

It is not advertising when it's on your own website.

And whilst National Rail Enquiries is the authoritative public website for rail information (including fares) it does come with a disclaimer that information may not be accurate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

November 11th is the final cut of date to enter fares into NFFW forming NFM11

Wos NFFW? I don't think it's National Family Four Wheelers of New Zealand or the National Food for Work program in India.....

 

[First class]

And whilst National Rail Enquiries is the authoritative public website for rail information (including fares) it does come with a disclaimer that information may not be accurate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wos NFFW?

New Fares for Windows, a GUI program used to amend fares in the mainframe and to to create new Products without physical paperwork.

 

[bnm]

New Fares for Windows, a GUI program used to amend fares in the mainframe and to to create new Products without physical paperwork.

Ta.

 

[iphone76]

What ticket is it and will get the 2012 fare for you?

You wouldn't know the new annual price from Wickford to London Liverpool Street by any chance? It's currently £2980.

Cheers.

 

[wibble]

November 11th is the final cut of date to enter fares into NFFW forming NFM11 (after that individual flows can be altered in the mainframe until Dec 2, but any Pricing Manager knows that would take months to do all the fares that way, after Nov 11 it will only be anomalies and after thoughts being corrected mainly).

You've got your dates muddled up! Mass updates and NFFW changes close on 4 November, but changes in the mainframe can be made up to 11 November.

 

[michael769]

It is not advertising when it's on your own website.

Yes it is! Your argument would mean that Tesco could put fake prices on their grocery site and get away with it. I can assure you that is not the case.

 

[OwlMan]

Good question?

I have already preserved a screenshot of national rail's quote for my annual season ticket starting Jan 1st (don't worry I'm getting mine on the 31st!).

But that is only "an offer to sell" it can be withdrawn at anytime until a contract is agreed.

Peter

 

[michael769]

But that is only "an offer to sell" it can be withdrawn at anytime until a contract is agreed.

Peter

What you say is correct under the Sale of Goods Act but you have not taken account of the Trades Descriptions Act which regulates advertisements of prices. Under TDA you cannot advertise an offer to sell at a price that you know will never be available. At it's most basic this price must be made available to at least one person (and in practice many more) -it is this that forces Ryan air to waive their booking fee for some obscure pre-pay card.

If it was possible to buy one right now at that price, then there would be no problem if the price went up in the future. But as the earliest you can buy one (on renewal) is 7 days before the start at which time the higher price will be in force, I feel that this advertisement is in breach of the advertising code's accuracy requirment.

More seriously National Rail know the prices will increase before the offers become available, and yet are still quoting the pre-increase prices. National rail should really be suppressing quotes for tickets starting next year until they have the new prices.

In any case I have submitted my complaint to the ASA so we shall see in due course if I am correct.

 

[OwlMan]

What you say is correct under the Sale of Goods Act but you have not taken account of the Trades Descriptions Act which regulates advertisements of prices. Under TDA you cannot advertise an offer to sell at a price that you know will never be available. At it's most basic this price must be made available to at least one person (and in practice many more) -it is this that forces Ryan air to waive their booking fee for some obscure pre-pay card.

If it was possible to buy one right now at that price, then there would be no problem if the price went up in the future. But as the earliest you can buy one (on renewal) is 7 days before the start at which time the higher price will be in force, I feel that this advertisement is in breach of the advertising code's accuracy requirment.

More seriously National Rail know the prices will increase before the offers become available, and yet are still quoting the pre-increase prices. National rail should really be suppressing quotes for tickets starting next year until they have the new prices.

In any case I have submitted my complaint to the ASA so we shall see in due course if I am correct.

As the new fares do not start until the 2nd January I do not see what the problem is. (Presumably your complaint is about fares on the 1st January so is completely pointless as the fares will not have increased) Your fare for the 1st January will still be the same on the 1st January.
AS the quote was a reply to a query from yourself it is not classed as advertising and is treated as any other quote in any other business and is not binding until a contract is agreed.

 

[tony_mac]

the same applies for 2nd January - isn't that being needlessly pedantic?

The point is not that they must be forced to accept the price, but they are currently claiming prices that they know will not be honoured - even if they are given the correct dates, and there is no obvious note that these prices will not be correct.

I think that this is likely to deceive the average consumer, and hence would breach the consumer protection from unfair trading regulations.

(Quotes to consumers are not exempt).

A quotation is a fixed price offer. Once it is accepted the price cannot be changed save in accordance with the quote (for example if there is a clause allowing variance if the cost of materials changes) or the customer seeks to vary the contract (if the work to be done changes the contractor is entitled to change the amount they charge).

http://www.rcsolicitors.co.uk/construction-matters/the-contract-2/quote-or-estimate.htm

 

[island]

The website is very likely to be found to be an invitation to treat. The customer makes an offer to purchase the ticket by handing over payment at the station and/or filling in a form and handing it in, and the TOC accepts that offer and issues the ticket.

Even if the website was found to be an offer to sell (which I doubt) the TOC is still free to withdraw that offer.

And I may be wrong but I think the Trades Description Act has been repealed.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I think the Trades Description Act has been repealed.

Yes.
Many laws were wholly or partly repealed by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPRs) and the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations 2008. These included the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, Mock Auctions Act 1961, Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 and the Control of Misleading Advertising Regulations 1988.
I have no expertise in these areas but I must admit that the Trade Descriptions Act was very easy to read and understand. Unfortunately, it wasn't adequately complaint with European legislation and so had to go the way of all good things!

 

[barrykas]

If it was possible to buy one right now at that price, then there would be no problem if the price went up in the future. But as the earliest you can buy one (on renewal) is 7 days before the start at which time the higher price will be in force, I feel that this advertisement is in breach of the advertising code's accuracy requirment.

More seriously National Rail know the prices will increase before the offers become available, and yet are still quoting the pre-increase prices. National rail should really be suppressing quotes for tickets starting next year until they have the new prices.

Nowhere on the Season Ticket Calculator "results" page does it mention specific dates unless you enter that as the initial query.

And if you go through to a TOC site to buy a season, they'll generally only allow you to pick a start date up to a month in advance.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[michael769]

Nowhere on the Season Ticket Calculator "results" page does it mention specific dates unless you enter that as the initial query.

That is what I am objecting to. If they were honest and say that the price for Jan 2nd is not yet available that would be fine. But they are not they are advertising a price that they know well fine know will never be offered to the public. This is false and misleading advertising IMO.

It would be no different to Tesco advertising a price in a newspaper advert, only for the price to be higher in store.

And if you go through to a TOC site to buy a season, they'll generally only allow you to pick a start date up to a month in advance.

By which time the advertised offer will not be available, of course. Why don't they just admit they have no intention of offering tickets at that price?

 

[robbob700]

Yes it is! Your argument would mean that Tesco could put fake prices on their grocery site and get away with it. I can assure you that is not the case.

But the Tesco web site says
"Please note that the prices on our Grocery website are guide prices only.
The actual price you pay is the price charged in store when your order is put together for delivery."

So if you book a delivery 2 weeks ahead the prices will not necessarily be the ones quoted. This doesn't seem dissimilar.

 

[michael769]

So if you book a delivery 2 weeks ahead the prices will not necessarily be the ones quoted. This doesn't seem dissimilar.

Not really in that case you could book a delivery right away and they would honour the current price. If I tried to buy that ticket right now the ToC would refuse. And will continue to refuse until after the new price is applied.

It is more like Tesco advertising a price but then refuse to sell it to you until they put the price up a couple of months later.

An in any case Tesco as you say warn people about this, but nowhere on the Season Ticket Calculator do ATOC warn about the impending price increase or that they can change. Why not?

 

[Dewedin]

Yes it is! Your argument would mean that Tesco could put fake prices on their grocery site and get away with it. I can assure you that is not the case.

Obviously they wouldn't, but that's not advertising. The ASA do not deal with that sort of thing.