• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
986
Location
Blackpool south Shore
Why should railway staff & passengers have to put up with abusive/ obnoxious behavior?
He had been drinking.
If he behaved like that in a pub, he would find himself on the pavement, the barmaid would have had plenty of help from the regulars.
In a nightclub he would have left so fast his head would have spun! :lol:
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Tav77

Member
Joined
10 Sep 2011
Messages
62
Why should railway staff & passengers have to put up with abusive/ obnoxious behavior?
He had been drinking.
If he behaved like that in a pub, he would find himself on the pavement, the barmaid would have had plenty of help from the regulars.
In a nightclub he would have left so fast his head would have spun! :lol:

Probably the most sensible post in the 59 pages on here
 

LondonJohn

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2011
Messages
285
Location
London
Abusive language should NOT be tolerated. There are no excuses; drunk, ill or whatever. People like Mr Main show a lack of RESPECT. People can defend him all they like, but no member of staff should be subjected to that.

Certainly on an aircraft, language and attitude like that would mean removal of the person involved. Crew members instructions must ALWAYS be obeyed and that is law in the skies.

I don't see why a train should be any different.

You are right abusive language should not be tolerated but then to the same extent neither should violence. Two wrongs here most definitely do not make it right and you cannot say that someone deserved to be the victim of an assault just because he got gobby.

As a passenger, especially on the last Friday night trains out of London I have been held up several times by the time the police have been called to a disruptive passenger.

If the BTP are as unreliable as railway staff say then their (powerful) unions should put pressure on the TOCs to correct that and make their work places a safer enviorement to work. Not endorse little more than petty violence by a passenger so that everybody gets home on time.

Nobody should have to put up with verbal assault but then neither should anybody have to put up with physical assault either.

Fortunately we have the laws of the land in this country and if they are broken we have a system that can deal with it.

The sad thing is here that the 3 people involved will probably not come out of this too well and will have to deal with the consequences of their actions or lack of and the knock on effect of the same.

Mr Pollock will have difficulty with visas for Australia and America just on the basis of being charged with assault even if no further action materialises. This might also impede his work if business trips are needed here.

If I recall correctly in the spiel that you get when phoning for car/motor/travel insurance you have to declare if you have any convictions or investigations which is going to make his insurance premiums be higher if indeed companies want to cover him.

The guard has probably worked his last shift before his retirement has prematurely started and who knows what will become of Sam Main after this..will he have difficulty getting a job after uni if he is charged and/or convicted ?

One thing that hasn't been commented on much apart from in the early days of this thread is the person that posted it to you tube in the first instance.

All he wanted from this was the fame and glory of getting a video to go viral and he certainly has that without thinking of the consequences of the 3 people involved. Indeed if you see his interview on BBC Breakfast Time he is revelling in the fame and glory that he is getting until he is brought down a peg or 2 by the presenters.

No winners here at all just hopefully valuable lessons to be learnt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am just trying to highlight an important issue here. It shouldn't be acceptable to respond in a way that Mr Main did here. Those who defend him don't seem to acknowledge that. Verbal abuse on public transport should be treated just as seriously as physical abuse, but sadly (IMO) it does not receive the same recognition.

Deliberate verbal abuse is identifiable. My mention of 'illness' was in response to Main's mention of Diabetes. I wasn't talking about Tourettes and so on, which has very little to do with the situation here.

Neither should it be acceptable for Mr Pollock to allegedly assault Mr Main. I support Sam Main though I do agree his actions were unreasonable and way out of order BUT that in my opinion in no way justifies the subsequent assault.

I would hate to be in the shoes of the Scottish Equivilent of the CPS as there are 1.9 million pairs of eyes watching to see who will come out on top gobby student or have a go hero big man.
 
Last edited:

ValleyLines142

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2011
Messages
6,968
Location
Gloucester
My opinion is a emphatic NO!, however everyones view is different, in my view I wish there was more people like Mr Pollock willing to stand up for their morals however there is more chance of people watching someone getting the crap kicked out of them then actually helping, the joys of Broken British Isles (IMHO of course)

Mr Pollock is his name - ah, thank you. But he shouldn't have got involved. What has he not done wrong?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You are right abusive language should not be tolerated but then to the same extent neither should violence. Two wrongs here most definitely do not make it right and you cannot say that someone deserved to be the victim of an assault just because he got gobby.

As a passenger, especially on the last Friday night trains out of London I have been held up several times by the time the police have been called to a disruptive passenger.

If the BTP are as unreliable as railway staff say then their (powerful) unions should put pressure on the TOCs to correct that and make their work places a safer enviorement to work. Not endorse little more than petty violence by a passenger so that everybody gets home on time.

Nobody should have to put up with verbal assault but then neither should anybody have to put up with physical assault either.

Fortunately we have the laws of the land in this country and if they are broken we have a system that can deal with it.

The sad thing is here that the 3 people involved will probably not come out of this too well and will have to deal with the consequences of their actions or lack of and the knock on effect of the same.

Mr Pollock will have difficulty with visas for Australia and America just on the basis of being charged with assault even if no further action materialises. This might also impede his work if business trips are needed here.

If I recall correctly in the spiel that you get when phoning for car/motor/travel insurance you have to declare if you have any convictions or investigations which is going to make his insurance premiums be higher if indeed companies want to cover him.

The guard has probably worked his last shift before his retirement has prematurely started and who knows what will become of Sam Main after this..will he have difficulty getting a job after uni if he is charged and/or convicted ?

One thing that hasn't been commented on much apart from in the early days of this thread is the person that posted it to you tube in the first instance.

All he wanted from this was the fame and glory of getting a video to go viral and he certainly has that without thinking of the consequences of the 3 people involved. Indeed if you see his interview on BBC Breakfast Time he is revelling in the fame and glory that he is getting until he is brought down a peg or 2 by the presenters.

No winners here at all just hopefully valuable lessons to be learnt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Neither should it be acceptable for Mr Pollock to allegedly assault Mr Main. I support Sam Main though I do agree his actions were unreasonable and way out of order BUT that in my opinion in no way justifies the subsequent assault.

I would hate to be in the shoes of the Scottish Equivilent of the CPS as there are 1.9 million pairs of eyes watching to see who will come out on top gobby student or have a go hero big man.

I absolutely agree with this. Mr Main was drunk and verbal and that should not be tolerated on trains, and he has every reason to be charged, although to be fair he claimed he had been advised when he caught the train that morning to buy two singles, as that would be cheaper, and had been given two tickets in the same direction by mistake. However, Mr Pollock is now likely to be charged for getting involved; Mr Main had cuts and bruises to his face after he smacked his head on the platform at Linlithgow station. At the end of the day, he should have kept sat down and not got involved, this hasn't got him anywhere and I think he should be charged. Violence should not be tolerated.

And personally, I think the conductor was getting quite aggressive by screaming 'OFF' at him several times. He, as conductor and responsible for the x number of passengers on board 2P29, should have kept calm and vigilant; I cannot say that was the case here.
 
Last edited:

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
.... although to be fair he claimed he had been advised when he caught the train that morning to buy two singles, as that would be cheaper, and had been given two tickets in the same direction by mistake....

....And personally, I think the conductor was getting quite aggressive by screaming 'OFF' at him several times. He, as conductor and responsible for the x number of passengers on board 2P29, should have kept calm and vigilant; I cannot say that was the case here.

Firstly, in some reports he alledgely gave to the media, he says he was advised that morning by the clerk, that two tickets would be cheaper, in other reports he alledgedly gave to the media, he claims he knew it was cheaper and asked for them and in an interview with the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16177959) he denies talking to any newspapers (apparently he didn't even have a lawyer!!!).

Secondly, I don't recall the guard screaming in the video, although, depending on your definition, he did firmly instruct the 'young man' to get off (some might say he shouted).
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,263
The conductor only shouting OFF to him, stating that 'he's getting paid for it, but the passengers are going to get annoyed'. He wasn't calm, as in: 'Sir, you do not have a valid ticket, therefore I must ask you to leave the train' (unless this was before the video from the fellow passenger's mobile phone started). It seemed as if the conductor was getting straight into it! He probably made the most of the situation with his retirement coming up!

1 - As I said before, put yourself in the guards shoes. You come across a passenger who does not have a valid ticket, is being abusive and disruptive and has been drinking. What would your initial thoughts be?

2 - Mr Main was not being calm and polite to the passenger, so why should we expect the guard to be?
 

ValleyLines142

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2011
Messages
6,968
Location
Gloucester
1 - As I said before, put yourself in the guards shoes. You come across a passenger who does not have a valid ticket, is being abusive and disruptive and has been drinking. What would your initial thoughts be?

2 - Mr Main was not being calm and polite to the passenger, so why should we expect the guard to be?

1) It's still important that you keep calm. If not, call BTP.

2) In this case, its not as if the conductor has to be loud and abusive as well. Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right.
 

caliwag

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2009
Messages
608
Location
York
I have not read the 59 pages that this thread has generated, but has anyone asked whether the 'computer' at the ticket issuing office has been checked to see if, indeed, two outward tickets were issued in error. It seems to me that this is fairly crucial to Sam's case regardless of his language.

It does seem to me that he felt that he was on strong ground in proffering, what he must have taken to be, his return ticket! No doubt in the small print of the Acts that govern ticket issueing, it is suggested that the purchaser check that he has received the right tickets. How many people do that on a journey which they take regularly?
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The conductor only shouting OFF to him, stating that 'he's getting paid for it, but the passengers are going to get annoyed'. He wasn't calm, as in: 'Sir, you do not have a valid ticket, therefore I must ask you to leave the train' (unless this was before the video from the fellow passenger's mobile phone started)....

Well, as you say, we don't know what happened before the video started and we certainly don't know how long it went on for.

....He probably made the most of the situation with his retirement coming up!

That's pretty low. Do you have any information that might back up that statement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have not read the 59 pages that this thread has generated, but has anyone asked whether the 'computer' at the ticket issuing office has been checked to see if, indeed, two outward tickets were issued in error. It seems to me that this is fairly crucial to Sam's case regardless of his language.

It does seem to me that he felt that he was on strong ground in proffering, what he must have taken to be, his return ticket! No doubt in the small print of the Acts that govern ticket issueing, it is suggested that the purchaser check that he has received the right tickets. How many people do that on a journey which they take regularly?

No hard evidence has been brought to light, although I suspect the records have been checked. One poster has claimed that a source involved has stated that the records show the 'young man' was sold an incorrect ticket.

Unfortunately, the 'young man's' alledged account varies depending on what paper/tv news programme you read/watch. In some cases he alledgedly claims he had no idea one was wrong, in others it says he discovered it on the morning train but left it to sort out on the evening train, and in others he alledgedly says he discovered it on the evening train. There is no evidence in the public domain that he tried to explain this to anyone at any point before he was thrown off the train.
 
Last edited:

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,263
1) It's still important that you keep calm. If not, call BTP.

And what if they do not turn up? (as has been the experience of several members of staff posting on this forum).

2) In this case, its not as if the conductor has to be loud and abusive as well. Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right.

The conductor wasn't loud or abusive though.
He was probably a bit rude, but as I said, in that situation, given that passenger, then you really cannot blame the guard (as it would easily appear as a clear case of fare evasion with the guy trying it on).

I have not read the 59 pages that this thread has generated, but has anyone asked whether the 'computer' at the ticket issuing office has been checked to see if, indeed, two outward tickets were issued in error. It seems to me that this is fairly crucial to Sam's case regardless of his language.

It does seem to me that he felt that he was on strong ground in proffering, what he must have taken to be, his return ticket! No doubt in the small print of the Acts that govern ticket issueing, it is suggested that the purchaser check that he has received the right tickets. How many people do that on a journey which they take regularly?

AFAIK it has been confirmed he was sold two singles. I am not sure if it has been confirmed if he was issued two outward tickets or not.

Nonetheless, it doesn't really matter. It is the passengers responsibility to have a valid ticket (again, think of the guards position, I would think the "I was sold the wrong ticket" is a fairly common excuse amongst fare evaders). Yes, you should check you have the right tickets. That is not "in the small print", it is bloody common sense! In any case, Mr Main has said that he realised the issue on the train to Edinburgh. So why did he not sort it out at Edinburgh station? Why did he not try to explain the situation calmly and politely to the guard before getting on the train / as soon as he got on the train? He has said that he thought it would probably cause him issues on the journey back, so common sense would have said to get it sorted out ASAP. No matter what initially let to the situation, he only has himself to blame for letting the situation progress to where it did.
 
Last edited:

sonorguy

Member
Joined
18 May 2011
Messages
158
1 - As I said before, put yourself in the guards shoes. You come across a passenger who does not have a valid ticket, is being abusive and disruptive and has been drinking. What would your initial thoughts be?

2 - Mr Main was not being calm and polite to the passenger, so why should we expect the guard to be?

My bold. Because he's employed to be! Same as everyone else who works in a customer facing role.
 

Minilad

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
4,370
Location
Anywhere B link goes
I wonder how many of the people commenting here saying the guard should have done this, that and the other. And he was this, that and the other have ever actually been in the same situation and used the advice they are giving.
 

sonorguy

Member
Joined
18 May 2011
Messages
158
Well, as you say, we don't know what happened before the video started and we certainly don't know how long it went on for.



That's pretty low. Do you have any information that might back up that statement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No hard evidence has been brought to light, although I suspect the records have been checked. One poster has claimed that a source involved has stated that the records show the 'young man' was sold an incorrect ticket.

.

I think that poster is me but I didn't claim that, I said it was mentioned further up in the thread, which it is. I don't know any more than anyone else.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,490
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I wonder how many of the people commenting here saying the guard should have done this, that and the other. And he was this, that and the other have ever actually been in the same situation and used the advice they are giving.

Not many I suspect, and I also suspect a great number of these have never been in a customer facing role for any length of time...
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
I wonder how many of the people commenting here saying the guard should have done this, that and the other. And he was this, that and the other have ever actually been in the same situation and used the advice they are giving.

A very small minority I would think looking at some of the comments
 

amcluesent

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Messages
877
I'm just sounding off from the snug at the Pig & Whistle. We know what everyone ought to do!

NB Has anyone else noticed when listening to the news on the wireless that in most cases the obvious answer is to shoot th mad dogs?
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
Best of luck to Mr Pollock. I hope he doesn't suffer for his attempt to do the right thing.

I'm not sure what the motivation was of the person who videoed and posted the video - I'll be charitable and put it down as the law of unintended consequences, as opposed to deliberate troublemaking.

'll reserve my contempt for Mr Main, who I still consider to be the author of his own misfortune, I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes of fame, and if I was him travelling on that line in future, I would make sure to always have the correct ticket, as he will be a marked man, I have no doubt.
 
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
986
Location
Blackpool south Shore
Best of luck to Mr Pollock. I hope he doesn't suffer for his attempt to do the right thing.

I'm not sure what the motivation was of the person who videoed and posted the video - I'll be charitable and put it down as the law of unintended consequences, as opposed to deliberate troublemaking.

'll reserve my contempt for Mr Main, who I still consider to be the author of his own misfortune, I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes of fame, and if I was him travelling on that line in future, I would make sure to always have the correct ticket, as he will be a marked man, I have no doubt.

Probably if it wasn't for the video it would have been just another day on ScotRail. Wonder what would have been said to the guard when he submitted his report of the incidence (without the video on youtube)?
The outcome for Mr Pollock seems now to depend on how much he can afford for a good QC.
Hope BTP pull out all stops to prosecute Mr Main.
 

Tin Rocket

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2008
Messages
248
Location
midlands
Probably if it wasn't for the video it would have been just another day on ScotRail. Wonder what would have been said to the guard when he submitted his report of the incidence (without the video on youtube)?
The outcome for Mr Pollock seems now to depend on how much he can afford for a good QC.
Hope BTP pull out all stops to prosecute Mr Main.

Maybe Mr Pollock's supporters could start some sort of support fund with donations going to fund his legal fees,if his supporters feel strongly enough about it that is.
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
Maybe Mr Pollock's supporters could start some sort of support fund with donations going to fund his legal fees,if his supporters feel strongly enough about it that is.

Wit is not your strong point Tin Rocket, there are alot of supporters for Mr Pollock, just because you are not one of them maybe you would put towards Mr Potty Mouth, I mean Main because he will need them more than Mr Pollock.
 

Tin Rocket

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2008
Messages
248
Location
midlands
Wit is not your strong point Tin Rocket, there are alot of supporters for Mr Pollock, just because you are not one of them maybe you would put towards Mr Potty Mouth, I mean Main because he will need them more than Mr Pollock.

I have no affiliation with,nor do i support either of the parties concerned in the sorry episode.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,648
Location
South Yorkshire
Neither should it be acceptable for Mr Pollock to allegedly assault Mr Main. I support Sam Main though I do agree his actions were unreasonable and way out of order BUT that in my opinion in no way justifies the subsequent assault.

So you acknowledge Main's "out of order" behaviour, but you still support him. If I was of your opinion I wouldn't be supporting any of them.

What about bouncers that remove people from establishments with force, how do you feel about them? Is that also 'assault'? A train is private property and is no different to a pub/club, where staff can authorize the removal of people within the establishment.
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
So you acknowledge Main's "out of order" behaviour, but you still support him. If I was of your opinion I wouldn't be supporting any of them.

What about bouncers that remove people from establishments with force, how do you feel about them? Is that also 'assault'? A train is private property and is no different to a pub/club, where staff can authorize the removal of people within the establishment.
But I suspect a club bouncer cannot authorise a member of the public to throw someone out. And, if excessive force is used, bouncers can be prosecuted for assault
 

amcluesent

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Messages
877
I hope the 'big man' can enjoy some Xmas cheers, after his life has been ruined by woollies, cry-babies, bed-wetters, bleeding-hearts, Guardian readers, leftards and apologists
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,755
Location
Essex
I hope the 'big man' can enjoy some Xmas cheers, after his life has been ruined by woollies, cry-babies, bed-wetters, bleeding-hearts, Guardian readers, leftards and apologists

That's another few I can add to my list. As I said before, you don't see liberals resorting to petty insults - says a lot about the differing attitudes.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,648
Location
South Yorkshire
But I suspect a club bouncer cannot authorise a member of the public to throw someone out. And, if excessive force is used, bouncers can be prosecuted for assault

I take your point, but did Mr Pollock use 'excessive force' when we consider how bouncers handle these situations. Or even the police.

Yes, I know these people are authorized to perform such actions, but what constitutes 'excessive force'?
 

michael769

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Messages
2,006
Yes, I know these people are authorized to perform such actions, but what constitutes 'excessive force'?

In Scotland bouncers have no more powers than any other member of the public - such as Mr Pollock. Something that makes BTPs behaviour all the more inexplicable as in my view it was little different to what plays out in most city centre nightclub zones every weekend.

BTP should have given both parties "words of advice" making it clear how close they came to ruining their futures with a criminal record, and then left it at that - just as the territorial plod do week in week out to the aforesaid nightclub "incidents"

Hopefully the Crown Office will do what the BTP failed to do and get the fiscal to give the "words of advice", hopefully the constables involved will also be given suitable advice, and ideally made to spend a Saturday night shadowing some of Lothian and Borders finest up Lothian Road or Leith Walk in Edinburgh - give them a taste of the reality of street policing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top