The Great Circular European Railway Challenge

[Donbacsi]

"Montgomery is well documented as a teetotaller."
And that was probably the problem all along. Maybe if he had slammed down a couple with Winnie, the war would have ended sooner?
I went to the NYC site...seems more than a bit tame and unambitious. I floated a suggestion for a rather more arduous trek.

 

[Mark_Lester]

"...while the US was sitting out the first bit of WW2". As I recall the story, my father was sleeping in the mud with a rifle in north Africa while Monty sat in Cairo sipping his Pimm's Cup.

As I understand it, there were american observers, who apparently had tanks, but no infantry to speak of.
I just foud out that the newly formed US 9th air force did some bombing in El Alemain I (a few months earlier)

anyway, if your dad was in the mud with a rifle then surely he was either British or pretending to be,

of course "you lot" were about to be treated a week later to the spectacle of having to fight the French, for several days, to get into Morocco, "that lot" have done some pretty dumb things warfare wise over the last 300 years or so, but the French really did surpass themselves with that one.

anyway, we arent doing north africa, can we move the subject to Istanbul, we can talk about one turkish bloke with no ammunition fending off the entire British army, and may be some train stuff.
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I am now at the stage where I am probably going to 3D model an abstract version of the steam engine we want using a thing called blender, in order to render it and then tart it up in another thing called gimp.
I dont want to model something and then get told "they didnt look like that", so, the question is, what engine do you want ?
all you are going to get is an abstract form, but I'd like to at least get the number of wheels right, and at last have the proportions and the right kind of "blinkers"

 

[Donbacsi]

Blenders and gimps? Are you making this up? And blinkers look stinko on any train...just gimp them out. What's wrong with the train in your picture? Just cut it out, slant it and belch some smoke out of it.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Blenders and gimps? Are you making this up? And blinkers look stinko on any train...just gimp them out. What's wrong with the train in your picture? Just cut it out, slant it and belch some smoke out of it.

there are two things wrong with what we've got right now
1. it's not a European locomotive
2. it's going to look crap on a tee, we need an abstract form

I know people who will help me out on the rendering and arty stuff, but I'd like to give them a basic form to work with.

I need to know if it's a class 52 .... ah, kriegslokomotve, not an express passenger loco, so no, we dont want one of them. And there we go, if I'd made up a 2-10-0 I'd have been pulled up,
what about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Class_03.10
or this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Class_01.10

all these seem to be war time, 1939+ anyway, but 4-6-2 is a common factor.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Over to you Mick.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Over to you Mick.

ok, I'm on maneuvers for a bit, though will doubtless pop up now and again over the next few days.
the pic I've got on the blog is of a 52, which is a "war locomotive", if we're going to make any effort at all then we at least need to work out how many big wheels and how many little ones. It seems 4 wee ones on their own bogey the front, 6 driving wheels and another 2 at the back, is what you'd expect.

the only other detail you are going to get are the extended and curved smoke deflectors, which I think will give it that continental appearance, and may be a reasonable approximation of a cab with angular sides and a half believable tender,

here we go, this is ideal

or is it.

 

[mickpop]

ok, I'm on maneuvers for a bit, though will doubtless pop up now and again over the next few days.
the pic I've got on the blog is of a 52, which is a "war locomotive", if we're going to make any effort at all then we at least need to work out how many big wheels and how many little ones. It seems 4 wee ones on their own bogey the front, 6 driving wheels and another 2 at the back, is what you'd expect.

the only other detail you are going to get are the extended and curved smoke deflectors, which I think will give it that continental appearance, and may be a reasonable approximation of a cab with angular sides and a half believable tender,

here we go, this is ideal

or is it.

This is a Deutsche Bundesbhan 01 pacific - appropriate enough. If you want a 'blinkerless' one they also come in that variety too - see

http://www.germansteam.co.uk/Archive/Archive.html

Poland also had a version of this and there was a slightly similar streamlined 4-6-4 which is the loco which, in the German view, holds the world steam speed record rather than our own A4 'Mallard'. Google 'German streamlined locomotives' and it should come up.

The 'Kriegslok' is the truly European loco in that it served in most Northern European countries as it was doled out as reparations after WW2. There are still some active in Bosnia and possibly Serbia on lines serving coal mines, as are, ironically, some tank locomotives built by, or built to the design of, the US Army dept, the same as the 'USA' class locomotives that were bought by the Southern Railway to shunt Southampton Docks.
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On a completely different subject - yesterday's 'Independent' reports that the rail service between Madrid and Portugal [Lisbon] has been terminated and replaced by a bus service according to the latest Thomas Cook timetable. Also closed are some minor lines in Northern Portugal - no doubt part of the'austerity' drive. I expect they are the last of the network of narrow gauge lines - boo hoo!

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Here's the piece from the Indy. Maybe not so bad for us.

Warning of the week: Portugal by train

European nations are supposed to be getting closer by rail – but this month Portugal became less connected with the rest of the Continent. "A daytime rail journey between Madrid and Lisbon is no longer possible," reports the new edition of the Thomas Cook European Rail Timetable. This follows the withdrawal of the Portuguese Railways service between Entroncamento in Portugal (east of Lisbon) and Badajoz in south-west Spain. The timetable now includes two daily bus services between the Portuguese and Spanish capitals.

In addition, several rural lines in the northern half of Portugal have been officially closed.

Mick, There is a thread in the International section here about Portugal which talks about the narrow gauge stuff.

 

[Mark_Lester]

so how do these renfe trenhotels get pulled around then, and can they just pay their wayas long as there is an operational railway at the other end ?

as for 2-10-0 v 4-6-2 v 4-6-4 , i presume 4-6-2 is the most likely if we're going for 1930s, but I'll have a go on this

which is 4-6-4
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so how do these renfe trenhotels get pulled around then, and can they just pay their wayas long as there is an operational railway at the other end ?

that makes little sense i suppose.
both our trains to and from lisbon are run by renfe. they arent cheap so i hope they pay for themselves. (bar the infrastructure)
the day train route took 12 hours, the night train only takes 9 and a half.
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i love this photo,

so when did west german steam pack in ?

and shouldnt we submit our "itinerary proposal" in here
http://www.raildude.com/en/travel-routes-proposals.html

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Sorry i've been AWOL. Lady G decided that we needed to pack for India. Gives me a few days to shed the excess baggage kilos.

Love the photo. It must have been great trying to get your washing dried if you lived in one of the houses below.

Is there any benefit to posting the trip on Raildude or will we just get loads of wannabees and people complaining that we can't call it circular because it has a variable radius? Or am I just getting hyper-sensitive?

I started doing a bit of research on Istanbul and all I got was "That looks great. When are you taking me there?" earache.

Was watching this last night just to get psyched up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1MykK4u8U

 

[mickpop]

so when did west german steam pack in

Last was mid1976 on Rheine - Emden line in tthr north west [see my album on Zenfolio].Only freight at the very end but 01 pacifics on passenger trains were still running the year before.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1MykK4u8U[/url]

May have it pencilled in for a Spring visit this year so could scout it out. Only problem is getting my little travelling companion to retire so we can devote more time to travelling.

 

[Donbacsi]

Glen: Your YoutTube includes sounds and images of the train-sound imitating harmonica. Tilos, Verboten, Forbidden by the Grand Poobah!
Are those double rail tracks common in India? I can't recall ever seeing them.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Glen: Your YoutTube includes sounds and images of the train-sound imitating harmonica. Tilos, Verboten, Forbidden by the Grand Poobah!

i forgot.

Are those double rail tracks common in India? I can't recall ever seeing them.

Do you mean the check rails on the level crossing at about 2.25 on the video? I think that you call level crossings grade crossings.

If so I have to say that I didn't notice them either. I shall have to dig out my photos.

There are a couple of photos below showing a check rail on the inside of one of the DHR spiral curves. Despite the junk and livestock on the line in the first photo the train in the second photo came through about 5 minutes later.

 

[Donbacsi]

The second clip is when they are pulling into a station. However, the first clip just seems to be flat, open road.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Sorry i've been AWOL. Lady G decided that we needed to pack for India. Gives me a few days to shed the excess baggage kilos.

Love the photo. It must have been great trying to get your washing dried if you lived in one of the houses below.

Is there any benefit to posting the trip on Raildude or will we just get loads of wannabees and people complaining that we can't call it circular because it has a variable radius? Or am I just getting hyper-sensitive?

I started doing a bit of research on Istanbul and all I got was "That looks great. When are you taking me there?" earache.

Was watching this last night just to get psyched up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1MykK4u8U

well, that's a snag for almost everywhere we get off, but Istanbul is definitely a definitely must do at least once.

I dont suppose we'll get many wanabes. I hard to work quite hard to find people for India, and in the end the 50 odd Indians who'd signed into the facebook event simultaneously all got married once booking time came round. My moaning about it is just to make sure we've nobody on some stupid budget, or have some one with the bare faced cheek to turn up and make money blogging the thing like it's some great idea they've just had. The train fare alone will zap all of those.

 

[Donbacsi]

Scooter assures me he stands willing to pay his entire fare and incidentals all along the way in 100 Pound Scotish Bank Notes...assuming, arguendo, someone is willing to cash them for him. Glen?

 

[Glenmutchkin]

The second clip is when they are pulling into a station. However, the first clip just seems to be flat, open road.

The double rail sections look to be where road traffic might need access. Having the double rail allows the "road" surface to be built up to rail height and for that short section the railway effectively becomes a tram line.

100 Pound Scotish Bank Notes...assuming, arguendo, someone is willing to cash them for him. Glen?

Send a few sample notes and I'll see what I can do. What rate would Scooter accept? It would be better if they were spelt properly.

 

[Donbacsi]

The grade crossings over here in urban and/or heavy crossing areas are generally set in concrete, hence no need for the double rails. The more remote, rural crossings are for the most part just in-filled with gravel. This results in a broken suspension on your auto and jarring your teeth fillings loose.

 

[Mark_Lester]

check out the line between Careva Livada and Dabovo
according to the timetable we will be doing this bit just before sunset, there's one swiss style 360 loop with tunnel section,
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.79345&lon=25.54154&zoom=15&layers=M
and then there's another even whackier bit here
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.67969&lon=25.59978&zoom=15&layers=M
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I found a youtube, not exactly switzerland but the line gets up to 900m
ah, here's a nice write up
http://matthewpbyrne.com/henry/2011/05/28/from-my-window/
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perhaps we should talk to Phil about it, he seems to have done Bulgaria pretty throughly
http://locopage.pikfu.net/set1846122/
oh look,
http://locopage.pikfu.net/set1846122/media64682483.html

great paint job.
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trying to work out what a class 87, in spanking brand new livery, is doing in the middle of bulgaria, I foud PTG tours who you two might know. Anyway, this is perhaps our definitive right-kiind-of-thing for the tee

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http://www.ptg.co.uk/vintage-bulgaria

Tuesday 15 May (B,D) A free day to explore Veliko Turnovo – the Mediaeval Capital city of Bulgaria.

I'm adding that to the list of medieval capitals I've just started.

 

[mickpop]

We sold them some refurbished Class 87s which had become surplus to requirements when Virgin trains introduced the Pendolinos on the West Coast Mainline. Most of the remainder are stored in an ex WD site awaiting further potential buyers.

While passing through France and Spain you can also look out for Class 37 and Class 58 which are used on infrastructure trains on high speed lines under construction.

Nice Bulgarian steam loco of standard German design and construction - I think it is more or less an 01 although I need to count the wheels again.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

I'm adding that to the list of medieval capitals I've just started.

The Great Circular European Horse & Cart Challenge?

 

[87015]

There is a fleet of 87s with private operator BZK (Bulgarian Railway Company) which are used for freight traffic. You've a half decent chance of grabbing sight of one at Ruse, the yard at Ruse Raz shack between the Danube Bridge and Ruse Main station is a location they work to. I've managed some phots, mainly at Pirdop, and of three charters which can be seen here http://87015aewn.wordpress.com/category/class-87s/

Veliko Tarnovo is a superb place - well worth exploring. It is a hike up from the station, may want to make arrangements for taxis in advance if its a big group and not up for walking as they seem to operate on a requested only basis, although there is a bus.

The line between Gorna Orj and Stara Zagora is impressive throughout, although its very tree lined but when you do get a clear view it can be stunning - there is a lot of running straight along the hillside with no roads or anything else in the valley - but you might then find you stop up to pick up PW workers in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Mark_Lester]

There is a fleet of 87s with private operator BZK (Bulgarian Railway Company) which are used for freight traffic. You've a half decent chance of grabbing sight of one at Ruse, the yard at Ruse Raz shack between the Danube Bridge and Ruse Main station is a location they work to. I've managed some phots, mainly at Pirdop, and of three charters which can be seen here http://87015aewn.wordpress.com/category/class-87s/

Veliko Tarnovo is a superb place - well worth exploring. It is a hike up from the station, may want to make arrangements for taxis in advance if its a big group and not up for walking as they seem to operate on a requested only basis, although there is a bus.

The line between Gorna Orj and Stara Zagora is impressive throughout, although its very tree lined but when you do get a clear view it can be stunning - there is a lot of running straight along the hillside with no roads or anything else in the valley - but you might then find you stop up to pick up PW workers in the middle of nowhere.

oh yeah there's some crackers in there. saved me the shock of seeing one. great how they keep the numbers too.
as a regular west coast mainliner I'm sure I clocked most of them off as a kid and surely been pulled by most of them over the years.

we'll just be riding through alas, but I'll certainly be donning the anorak when we enter Bulgaria.
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this is Ruse I guess,

looks like Crewe to me.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

as a regular west coast mainliner I'm sure I clocked most of them off as a kid and surely been pulled by most of them over the years.

we'll just be riding through alas, but I'll certainly be donning the anorak when we enter Bulgaria.

The closet gets emptier.

 

[Mark_Lester]

There is a fleet of 87s with private operator BZK (Bulgarian Railway Company) which are used for freight traffic. You've a half decent chance of grabbing sight of one at Ruse, the yard at Ruse Raz shack between the Danube Bridge and Ruse Main station is a location they work to. I've managed some phots, mainly at Pirdop, and of three charters which can be seen here http://87015aewn.wordpress.com/category/class-87s/

Veliko Tarnovo is a superb place - well worth exploring. It is a hike up from the station, may want to make arrangements for taxis in advance if its a big group and not up for walking as they seem to operate on a requested only basis, although there is a bus.

The line between Gorna Orj and Stara Zagora is impressive throughout, although its very tree lined but when you do get a clear view it can be stunning - there is a lot of running straight along the hillside with no roads or anything else in the valley - but you might then find you stop up to pick up PW workers in the middle of nowhere.

So the two lamps and the pair of vuvuzelas they've fitted onto the front of these 87's, was that done by the locals ?.
ah there's a bit at the bottom of here, I guess it was done by ETS before shipping. 17 of them, were sent out
http://www.rail.co.uk/locomotives-and-engines/electric-engines/british-rail-class-87/
and 87004 Britannia even hauls the local royals about, I didnt know they had any.
oh there's another page here, with them all painted up balkan style, but no hooters, so I guess they get whacked on when they get there.
http://www.europhoenix.eu/news.php
and there's 3 86's in hungary



Here's that German loco again in full swing
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trainplanepro/5052980271/
it looks like a 2-8-2 to me, ah yes, it's in plain English under the pic, built in Switzerland but for Bulgaria.
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The Istanbul tour :-

Circular from Sirkeci. Sultanhamet itself can only be free play, it's chaos at the best of times.

Ferry from Sirkeci to Haydarpasa

Tram T3. nostalgic circular route from Hydarpasa and back

Ferry back to Kabatas on the Galata side

F1 (underground modern funicular) to Taksim

T5 heritage tram from Taksim to Beylogu

F2 back down to T1 tramway
oh and look, a second claimant to the title of second underground railway after london
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tünel
Budapest's Line 1 wins on the grounds that it's got stops in the middle, tenuous, this is a cable hauled funicular to boot.
here's a good page
http://daithaic.blogspot.com/2011/01/tunel-istanbul.html

T1 back over the Galata bridge

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Underground funicular. Oh wow! Any chance of finding a monorail somewhere on the circuit? Trolleybus could be a bonus point.

We seem to be ticking off

Standard Gauge
Broad Gauge (Spain)
Narrow Gauge (Switzerland+ Hungary)
Trams (Various)
Funiculars (Various)
Underground Funicular (Turkey)
Cable Car (Hungary)
Underground (Various)
El (Paris)

 

[Mark_Lester]

This seems to claim that the ferry from to haydarpasa runs from Karakoy, which is on the Galata side of the west side, i.e. on the other side of the Galata bridge from Sirkeci on the Sultanhamet side (I think that's called the horn or Istanbul). .
http://www.sehirhatlari.com.tr/en/2010_2011_Kis_Tarifeleri-content-m-26-43.html

anyway , there is a ferry direct to Kabatas from Kadikoy (which is the same haydarpasa)
so the route works back from the asian side. There simply has to be a traditional ferry that runs directly between the two stations, i.e you dont have to cross the galata bridge first, you just walk from the station onto a ferry. And it simply has to be done as part of the trip.

We'll need to dump bags and probably recover from the Bosfor Ekspresi before doing the above. I think we'll need more than a bag drop.
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Underground funicular. Oh wow! Any chance of finding a monorail somewhere on the circuit? Trolleybus could be a bonus point.

We seem to be ticking off

Standard Gauge
Broad Gauge (Spain)
Narrow Gauge (Switzerland+ Hungary)
Trams (Various)
Funiculars (Various)
Underground Funicular (Turkey)
Cable Car (Hungary)
Underground (Various)
El (Paris)

there's a modern one in Lyon, rack railway undergound, I think it even has retractable cog gear, the gradient goes negative, i.e it goes down hill then seriously uphill.
Anyway, Lyon is a great place to take Lady G.
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Underground funicular (Turkey)

I think this is a cable car, not a rack railway.

the second stop on this T3 heritage tram on the Anatolyan side is called CO, which of course stands for carbon monoxide. I suspect that's very apt.

as for working out where we're going to stay, I think that this has to be a Darjeeling type half way stop where it's left to th reader to work out.
This place looks good
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g293974-d506089-Reviews-Hotel_Peninsula-Istanbul.html
but I dont think they have dorms, and in any case I dont know if I want a dorm.

Anyway, there's loads of stuff in Cankaturan. The metro only runs every half hour during the day, but if we time our blast off from there to fit one of those then we could get that one stop to Sirkeci. The tram back across the bridge at the end leaves us just up the hill from this budget hotel zone.
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we'll want to go up, not down F2 (that's the antique one, not sure about the logic of it not being F1) , i want to get the ferry all the way from Haydarpasa to Kabatas, for convexity's sake, so I guess we just reverse it. T1 over the Galata bridge, up the old funicular, "nostalgia" tram T5 to Taksim sq, down the new funicular (F1), ferry to Haydrapasa, loop round the other "nostalgia" tram T3. ferry back to Serkeci, then back to Cankutaran budget hotel area, prob using T1, from where you can do your own stuff at the bazaar and blue mosque.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Istanbul_Rapid_Transit_Map.png
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I think this is a cable car, not a rack railway.

no, it's adhesion, rubber tyres!

 

[mickpop]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/trainplanepro/5052980271/[/url]
it looks like a 2-8-2 to me, ah yes, it's in plain English under the pic, built in Switzerland

Ok, should have counted the wheels! Confused because the Bulgarian pacifics were copies of German 01 locos but classified as 05. If Hitler had been succssful at least all the locos would be classified in a rational manner.In my defence I would say that the design is clearly German and is almost identical to locomotives built for that country [see 22 and 39 classes] and copied by many others including Poland , Jugoslavia etc. In fact the original Bulgarian 01 class were built by Hanomag [Hannoverische Maschinbau] and other examples by Chrzanow of Poland and the last couple by Winterthur of Switzerland to the original design.I rest my case!

On the subject of wheels - I know our Scottish friend is keen to see 2-10-2 tank in Germany. He would therefore drool at the thought of the 2-12-4 tanks that were built in 1931 for Bulgarian Railways for heavy mineral trains. I think at least one survives.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

On the subject of wheels - I know our Scottish friend is keen to see 2-10-2 tank in Germany. He would therefore drool at the thought of the 2-12-4 tanks that were built in 1931 for Bulgarian Railways for heavy mineral trains. I think at least one survives.

I think that I am going to cancel India and head for Bulgaria tomorrow. I just need to break this piece of news to Lady G. You will understand if it all goes rather quiet from this end.

 

[mickpop]

I think that I am going to cancel India and head for Bulgaria tomorrow. I just need to break this piece of news to Lady G. You will understand if it all goes rather quiet from this end.

Find them here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-12-4 -