Colour vision

[Mrnick]

Hi all, liking the forum! Looking at applying for a trainee position but worried about how strict they are with colour vision?
I had an eye test years ago and struggled with about 5 slides out of 30 slides on the colour vision test.
How strict are they? Or do they require 100%

Don't really want to apply if there is no point, so thanks in advance for the answer !!

Nick

 

[TDK]

Hi all, liking the forum! Looking at applying for a trainee position but worried about how strict they are with colour vision?
I had an eye test years ago and struggled with about 5 slides out of 30 slides on the colour vision test.
How strict are they? Or do they require 100%

Don't really want to apply if there is no point, so thanks in advance for the answer !!

Nick

If you have any form of defective colour vision you will not get a safety critical job on the railway

 

[WSW]

If you have any form of defective colour vision you will not get a safety critical job on the railway

Unless of course you are like me. I'm not colour blind but I can't get more than one of the Ishihara plates right! I pass other colour vision tests. There is a flaw in Ishihara. Sadly no-one seems to care.

I don't work for a railway but you should ask your (prospective) employers to consider a colour aptitude test - some do.

Hope this helps.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[Mrnick]

Yes struggling with these type of test

 

[MggW]

It depends on what the trainee position is. Searching on the RSSB website will find you the various medical group standards. For example, RT3451 is the standard for train working competencies including driving.

Guidance note GN3655 may be more accessible, and Appendix B covers colour vision. It essentially only requires colour blindness testing where colour vision is important for safety reasons.

B8.2.1 specifies the use of the Ishihara Tests but says that some employers use the City University Test.

 

[TDK]

Unless of course you are like me. I'm not colour blind but I can't get more than one of the Ishihara plates right! I pass other colour vision tests. There is a flaw in Ishihara. Sadly no-one seems to care.

I don't work for a railway but you should ask your (prospective) employers to consider a colour aptitude test - some do.

Hope this helps.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

To be honest I cannot see the medical department who take the medicals for safety critical staff changing their method of testing for colour blindness as there is always another candidate waiting behind who can pass the test, if you cannot pass the Colour Blindness test that is used in the medical you are wasting yours and the companies time and money applying

 

[WSW]

To be honest I cannot see the medical department who take the medicals for safety critical staff changing their method of testing for colour blindness as there is always another candidate waiting behind who can pass the test, if you cannot pass the Colour Blindness test that is used in the medical you are wasting yours and the companies time and money applying

Then that is blatant discrimination. Happily many employers are willing to offer alternatives to the Ishihara test. I am forty years into a successful career in an industry requiring exacting use of colour and yet I failed the Ishihara test at my interview. The interview board accepted my request for an aptitude test which I passed 100% much to their surprise. That's why I say to folks who fail Ishihara not to give up if they feel they have no problem. Nowadays when asked if I have a colour vision problem (perhaps at a PTS training day) I say "no".

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[whhistle]

The Ishihara test is flawed.
Someone I know can see between red and green, they drive and work in the rail industry already but they can't pass the Ishihara test 100%. Many people assume colour blindness is where you can't see the colours. What do you think colour blind people can see then? Black and white?

I do wish people would educate themselves with this as many... many people I know don't have a clue what colour blindness actually is.

Surely if you are fit to drive a car (with regard to colour vision) you are fit to drive a train? Piloting a plane is different as you have hundreds of lights and switches above your head, but even then I would suggest you'd be okay.

 

[WSW]

The Ishihara test is flawed.
Someone I know can see between red and green, they drive and work in the rail industry already but they can't pass the Ishihara test 100%. Many people assume colour blindness is where you can't see the colours. What do you think colour blind people can see then? Black and white?

I do wish people would educate themselves with this as many... many people I know don't have a clue what colour blindness actually is.

Surely if you are fit to drive a car (with regard to colour vision) you are fit to drive a train? Piloting a plane is different as you have hundreds of lights and switches above your head, but even then I would suggest you'd be okay.

Thanks for that, whhistle.

One day my work colleague (who knew I'd failed Ishihara) was a passenger in the car I was driving said "Hey, you're colour blind so how do you know what colour the traffic lights are?". I thought I'd play along so I said "The red light is at the top, the green at the bottom". He said "Aha, but how can you tell at night when you can't see the other unlit lamps". I replied "That's easy - if it's a red light, I stop; if it's green I carry on" He said "Oh! So you're not colour blind then?". "No" said I.

It takes a long time for people who blissfully trust Ishihara to realise the test is flawed.

If you are confident you can tell colours apart, but fail Ishihara, be strong and demand an alternative test.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[TDK]

Then that is blatant discrimination. Happily many employers are willing to offer alternatives to the Ishihara test. I am forty years into a successful career in an industry requiring exacting use of colour and yet I failed the Ishihara test at my interview. The interview board accepted my request for an aptitude test which I passed 100% much to their surprise. That's why I say to folks who fail Ishihara not to give up if they feel they have no problem. Nowadays when asked if I have a colour vision problem (perhaps at a PTS training day) I say "no".

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

Maybe discrimination - not on my part - I am just advising on what a TOC would most likely do - if you cannot pass a colour blindness test you will not get a safety critical role on the railway and that is in black and white. You can say "No" but if you do and you have an incident and then are found to be coloured blind and not divulged it with a history of failing a test you will be up in front of a judge my friend.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Ishihara test is flawed.
Someone I know can see between red and green, they drive and work in the rail industry already but they can't pass the Ishihara test 100%. Many people assume colour blindness is where you can't see the colours. What do you think colour blind people can see then? Black and white?

I do wish people would educate themselves with this as many... many people I know don't have a clue what colour blindness actually is.

Surely if you are fit to drive a car (with regard to colour vision) you are fit to drive a train? Piloting a plane is different as you have hundreds of lights and switches above your head, but even then I would suggest you'd be okay.

My friend is colour blind and cannot play snooker because he cannot see the red balls on a green background this is the same as not seeing a red signal with a green background and this is why if you are coloured blind and cannot pass the test you don't get the job
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Ishihara test is flawed.
Someone I know can see between red and green, they drive and work in the rail industry already but they can't pass the Ishihara test 100%. Many people assume colour blindness is where you can't see the colours. What do you think colour blind people can see then? Black and white?

I do wish people would educate themselves with this as many... many people I know don't have a clue what colour blindness actually is.

Surely if you are fit to drive a car (with regard to colour vision) you are fit to drive a train? Piloting a plane is different as you have hundreds of lights and switches above your head, but even then I would suggest you'd be okay.

My friend is colour blind and cannot play snooker because he cannot see the red balls on a green background this is the same as not seeing a red signal with a green background and this is why if you are coloured blind and cannot pass the test you don't get the job

 

[WSW]

Maybe discrimination - not on my part - I am just advising on what a TOC would most likely do - if you cannot pass a colour blindness test you will not get a safety critical role on the railway and that is in black and white. You can say "No" but if you do and you have an incident and then are found to be coloured blind and not divulged it with a history of failing a test you will be up in front of a judge my friend.

No worries - I didn't mean you were discriminating.

But I don't seem to be getting the message through that the Ishihara test itself is flawed. Thus it is quite possible to fail the test and yet NOT be colour blind.

If I am asked "Am I colour blind" I will tell the truth and say "No". What's wrong with that? No-one can "find" I'm colour blind unless they carry out a fit and proper test. Ishihara is not a fit and proper test.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[Rugd1022]

No worries - I didn't mean you were discriminating.

But I don't seem to be getting the message through that the Ishihara test itself is flawed. Thus it is quite possible to fail the test and yet NOT be colour blind.

If I am asked "Am I colour blind" I will tell the truth and say "No". What's wrong with that? No-one can "find" I'm colour blind unless they carry out a fit and proper test. Ishihara is not a fit and proper test.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

Steve, can you please explain why you think the Ishihara test is flawed? I've always found it very easy to breeze through this test during my railway medicals... so I'd be interested to hear why!

 

[WSW]

Steve, can you please explain why you think the Ishihara test is flawed? I've always found it very easy to breeze through this test during my railway medicals... so I'd be interested to hear why!

Hi Rugd1022

There are quite a few people around the world who have been denied a good career due to failing the Ishihara test despite them having perfectly acceptable colour vision.

I am one of those people, altho I managed to persuade the interview board to give me a colour vision aptitude test which I passed 100% even tho I failed Ishihara (only one plate correct!) and I was given the job. That was forty years ago and I have had a very successful career in a job requiring great skill with colours.

I have also worked as a Guard on the WSR for 10 years without any "incident" but was stopped in 1992 due to the introduction of the Ishihara test and no offer of an aptitude test.

I can "see colours" just like those who pass Ishihara.

So, in a nutshell. People with good colour vision cannot pass the Ishihara test which is a test for colour vision. That's why it's flawed. And that's why I encourage people to ask for an alternative test - there are several other tests.

Hope that helps!

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[Jonny]

The Ishihara test is flawed.
Someone I know can see between red and green, they drive and work in the rail industry already but they can't pass the Ishihara test 100%. Many people assume colour blindness is where you can't see the colours. What do you think colour blind people can see then? Black and white?

As someone who has "failed" both the Ishihara and City University tests (the latter marginal), the answer is most colours but not quite all. It also makes it that bit harder to spot brown-on-brown, not good for ornithology (bird watching) and photography which just happen to be my main hobbies. Mind you, colour vision is the least of my issues re: anything safety critical on the railway, 6 years on anti-depressants and still not sorted.

 

[TDK]

No worries - I didn't mean you were discriminating.

But I don't seem to be getting the message through that the Ishihara test itself is flawed. Thus it is quite possible to fail the test and yet NOT be colour blind.

If I am asked "Am I colour blind" I will tell the truth and say "No". What's wrong with that? No-one can "find" I'm colour blind unless they carry out a fit and proper test. Ishihara is not a fit and proper test.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

The answer is to pay for the other test prior to applying and then you have the evidence to deliver to the TOC before having to explain yourself.

 

[WSW]

My friend is colour blind and cannot play snooker because he cannot see the red balls on a green background this is the same as not seeing a red signal with a green background and this is why if you are coloured blind and cannot pass the test you don't get the job

Absolutely! Your friend clearly does have colour vision problems. But using your snooker example, I (an Ishihara failee) can see all the colours of all of the balls and the colour of the background, and if you'd care to add more coloured balls of any colour you can think of - purple, mauve, orange and so on- I'd be able to see those colours too. In the railway world, again using your example, I can see a red against green, or any other colours you may care to offer. And you still say if I cannot pass the test I don't get the job? I agree the Ishihara test does establish those who truly have colour vision issues but it also fails some of those who have none. So it is flawed and simply rejecting all Ishihara failees is unfair and perhaps potentially unlawful.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[TDK]

Absolutely! Your friend clearly does have colour vision problems. But using your snooker example, I (an Ishihara failee) can see all the colours of all of the balls and the colour of the background, and if you'd care to add more coloured balls of any colour you can think of - purple, mauve, orange and so on- I'd be able to see those colours too. In the railway world, again using your example, I can see a red against green, or any other colours you may care to offer. And you still say if I cannot pass the test I don't get the job? I agree the Ishihara test does establish those who truly have colour vision issues but it also fails some of those who have none. So it is flawed and simply rejecting all Ishihara failees is unfair and perhaps potentially unlawful.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

As previously quoted - take an alternative test with the results as evidence before you apply or you will not get the job

 

[whhistle]

My friend is colour blind and cannot play snooker because he cannot see the red balls on a green background this is the same as not seeing a red signal with a green background and this is why if you are coloured blind and cannot pass the test you don't get the job.

It's not exactly the same though.

It appears your friend has severe colour blindness where as mine is very mild... yet I can't get 100% on the numbers test. We had an afternoon at work where we did a few mock tests and I said a colour looked more orange where someone else said it was closer to red (although the colour could probably be seen as both). Another one is greens and browns where the shade of brown is so close to green that different people would name either. This isn't colour blindness, it's simply a matter of opinion on what that shade is. Railway signals are clearly a colour, there's no chance of mixing them up with oranges or browns. The rules for the test have been as they always have because nobody has ever thought of changing them to actually be better.

The biggest issue I have with this is I can stand on the far end of the platform and tell anyone what colour the signal at the other end is. I could do it over a million times. I can prove I can tell the right colour, yet "they" can't prove that I can't.

The Ishihara test is flawed for those people like me who have a form of mild deuteranopia. The Wikipedia article on the topic makes interesting reading.

I should think though it all depends on the medical examiner on the day. If you get a nice person, so long as you can reach the pass mark (even if you take extra time), they'll be happy.

 

[WSW]

It's not exactly the same though.

It appears your friend has severe colour blindness where as mine is very mild... yet I can't get 100% on the numbers test. We had an afternoon at work where we did a few mock tests and I said a colour looked more orange where someone else said it was closer to red (although the colour could probably be seen as both). Another one is greens and browns where the shade of brown is so close to green that different people would name either. This isn't colour blindness, it's simply a matter of opinion on what that shade is. Railway signals are clearly a colour, there's no chance of mixing them up with oranges or browns. The rules for the test have been as they always have because nobody has ever thought of changing them to actually be better.

The biggest issue I have with this is I can stand on the far end of the platform and tell anyone what colour the signal at the other end is. I could do it over a million times. I can prove I can tell the right colour, yet "they" can't prove that I can't.

The Ishihara test is flawed for those people like me who have a form of mild deuteranopia. The Wikipedia article on the topic makes interesting reading.

I should think though it all depends on the medical examiner on the day. If you get a nice person, so long as you can reach the pass mark (even if you take extra time), they'll be happy.

Good post - although I'm not sure about extra time making any difference - well not for me.

One day the medics will wake up...meantime good people are failed for no reason.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[ainsworth74]

One day the medics will wake up...meantime good people are failed for no reason.

Or take the alternative test and keep the results as evidence to show potential employers as TDK has suggested several times.

 

[WSW]

Or take the alternative test and keep the results as evidence to show potential employers as TDK has suggested several times.

Yes it does seem to be one solution but cannot always be successful. One problem with "the alternative test" is that employers ONLY accept the Ishihara test and are reluctant to consider any alternatives or even consider the Ishihara test result is wrong.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[Benbow]

WSW - I passed the Ishihara test recenty without a problem. I'm just curious as to why you can't pass it as you have normal colour vision. What's stopping you passing Ishihara I wonder?

 

[WSW]

WSW - I passed the Ishihara test recenty without a problem. I'm just curious as to why you can't pass it as you have normal colour vision. What's stopping you passing Ishihara I wonder?

Well, my colour vision is fine so the problem must be with the test. What do you think?

I have no doubt Ishihara detects those with a real colour vision defect but it is also detecting a group of people who do not have colour vision problems. I am not alone in this. There are lots of people worldwide with no colour vision defects who have the same issue with Ishihara and they too are trying to raise awareness to the flaw in Ishihara.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Are there any properly conducted studies that confirm the existence of a flaw in the test?

 

[Southern313]

I don't know for definite if any full studies into the test have been conducted, however the aviation industry certainly acknowledges some kind of failing with the ishihara test. In order to pass the medical for an air traffic control license you either pass the Ishihara test, or if failing the test then you shall be examined by anomaloscopy test. I believe this also applies for a commerical pilot license as well.

It's another example of the railway being a bit slow to keep up with changes. You might fail a medical to be allowed to dispatch a train off a platform, yet pass a medical that would allow you to be in command of a A380 with over 400 passengers onboard.

The Ishihara test has been around for almost 100 years now, it most certainly isn't 100% accurate compared to other tests that can be done now.

 

[WSW]

Are there any properly conducted studies that confirm the existence of a flaw in the test?

Good question. The answer is, I think, yes and no!

There's R W Pickford's "A study of the Ishihara Test for Colour Blindness" which is supposed to be available at Wiley Online:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1949.tb00231.x/abstract
I asked my daughter to get the full PDF via her Cambridge Uni institutional login which was accepted but the PDF wouldn't download. If anyone else can access the PDF I'd be very grateful. The study looks at the effectiveness of the test and may (!) shed some light on the issue that I have been describing.

Other academic studies may well be out there. I'll keep looking.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk

 

[Skymonster]

It is a shame the railway takes such a blinkered and limited view and insists on the Ishihara only, whereas in the aviation industry there is easy recourse to other tests should a candidate fail Ishihara and if those other tests are completed successfully candidates who fail Ishihara can still get an aviation class I medical and go on to fly airliners.

 

[ainsworth74]

If anyone else can access the PDF I'd be very grateful. The study looks at the effectiveness of the test and may (!) shed some light on the issue that I have been describing.

I'm fairly sure that sharing such a document would be a contravention of the terms and conditions of that website as they tend not to like people sharing their documents!

 

[Benbow]

Well, my colour vision is fine so the problem must be with the test. What do you think?

I don't know. Perhaps something akin to dyslexia, as in an inability to process the image made up of different sized circles?

I don't mean my comments to be controversial. I just find it fascinating that a small number of people are failing this test and can pass an alternative one. Until today I though it was the definitive test.

 

[WSW]

I'm fairly sure that sharing such a document would be a contravention of the terms and conditions of that website as they tend not to like people sharing their documents!

Good point.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know. Perhaps something akin to dyslexia, as in an inability to process the image made up of different sized circles?

I don't mean my comments to be controversial. I just find it fascinating that a small number of people are failing this test and can pass an alternative one. Until today I though it was the definitive test.

Funny you should say that, Benbow, cos I've long wondered if it is the nature of the image that is causing the inability to see the numbers. Maybe I'll copy some to greyscale and see what numbers I can see (or not!)

Thanks folks for your replies.

Steve
www.wsr.org.uk