rail-britain
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Yes, it is on the Network Rail website
I have also uploaded a copy
I am just waiting on the update which includes the ICWC services, due September
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First West Coast service pattern
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I have also uploaded a copy
I am just waiting on the update which includes the ICWC services, due September
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RailUK Forums
Forgive me, but would you mind providing the link as it's not at all clear where it is on the NR website?
Nym
Established Member
Source?
Lampshade
Established Member
If there's demand for 1tph from Bolton I will eat my shoes.
Nym
Established Member
There is, but it's between Bolton and Manchester, frequently anything up to 100 pax waiting for any train on the platform that heads into Piccadilly. Off peak, peak you can be pushing 500...
Bolton to London not a chance, theres a fair few connecting passengers, but this can also be done via Preston or Wigan...
Since it would probably only be N.Wales/Chester and Shrewsbury services that extend beyond the wires once the north-west electrification program is complete I think they are more likely to have a shortage of EMUs (the 11 new 6-car ones doesn't sound like enough) than a shortage of Voyagers in the long run, unless they extend more Chester services to north Wales and Shrewsbury has a much more frequent service than I expect.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
This is all a bit baffling. The NR docs you quote are for May 2014.
Now that we have an agreed ICWC contract with First, don't we have to wait until they confirm what they have agreed with the DfT?
Apart from the list of new destinations, all we have is the "doubling of services to Preston" to go on.
I should think there will be a new track access application for whatever has been agreed.
Everything else is surely just "illustrative", based on RUS work and NR electrification plans.
Prior to 2014, won't we just be getting the full deployment of the new 390s?
I can't see stopping patterns changing for a while.
swt_passenger
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I think you are reading far too much into that diagram. The only time the appendix stuff is referenced in the ITT text is as a map and route diagram of the current franchise. (Obviously they must be worried about bidders who aren't familiar with the existing franchise coverage).
I don't think you can use that route diagram (and the map on the previous page) to justify future stopping patterns - that isn't what it is there for.
It is the train service requirement document associated with the ITT that should be taken as the future intentions...
Does Brum - Manc need an extra service, given that most of the current trains are only 4car? And what about pathing between New St and Wolves?
Lampshade
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It needs a stopping service i.e. extend the Piccadilly - Stoke stopper.
tbtc
Veteran Member
True - length is more important than frequency - a link between two of the most important cities in the UK really needs something bigger and better than it currently has.
Its a shame we're so fixated on longer distance links that we can't just put some ("mini"?) 390s between these cities (because of all the outcry about losing through services to Paignton/ Bournemouth etc).
rail-britain
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Yes, that is correct and First Group will already have received the proposed WCML timetable (as specified) and simply need to confirm this, by September
Relating to Manchester-Birmingham:
AFAIK there are no plans for an additional Intercity service. However, there is a proposal for diverting the Manchester-Bournemouth service via Crewe and extending the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone. Although the latter would provide a direct service between Birmingham and Manchester it is unlikely that any one would travel end to end on it.
AFAIK there are no plans for an additional Intercity service. However, there is a proposal for diverting the Manchester-Bournemouth service via Crewe and extending the Manchester-Stoke stopper to Birmingham via Stone. Although the latter would provide a direct service between Birmingham and Manchester it is unlikely that any one would travel end to end on it.
rail-britain
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Surely this would come under Cross Country, rather than West Coast
Ironically, West Coast could operate such a service, but they don't and haven't for many years (ie Euston - Birmingham - Manchester)
Before the XC franchise reorganisation when South West services went to Scotland and around half of the Manchester-Birmingham services terminated at Birmingham there was a proposal for putting 350s on around half of the Manchester-Birmingham services. However, Virgin objected saying something along the lines of they want to keep the route and they aren't interested in using a small fleet of inferior units.
With CP5 seeing a full electrified AC route between Southampton docks and Trafford Park, we may see mini Pendolinos on XC, as part of the same order as for Birmingham-Scotland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are a couple of Manchester-Euston via Birmingham services.
All operators through Stockport and Wolverhampton are affected by a West Coast timetable recast because the WC franchise gets first pick and then the other operators have to fit in their services around it. Then Northern and LM find they haven't been left with enough paths for all the services they need.
Lampshade
Established Member
I would for one.
If it gets transferred to LM they could pull the same trick they do with Euston - Crewe services, making it actually affordable to buy a walk up ticket with LM-only fares.
Batman
Member
I think the line between Wolves and New Street is currently full. There has been talk about creating an extra path for a 3rd Brum-Manc service each hour by diverting one of the two Brum-Liverpool services every hour via the Chase line once that gets electrified. But that wouldn't work because it would create timetable clashes at Stafford and there simply isn't enough capacity on the WCML between Stafford and Rugeley TV, especially since southbound trains will have to use a ladder junction and cross both fast lines at grade to access the Chase Line. And even if it were possible, it would require platform extensions at the Chase line local stations because 4 car 350's don't have SDO.
tbtc
Veteran Member
If you forget about linking Manchester directly to Bournemouth/ Paignton then you could run Birmingham - Manchester trains as extensions of London - Birmingham - Wolverhampton services, thus providing a much bigger capacity between the West Midlands and Greater Manchester using electric stock without needing more paths through Wolverhampton.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
As BR did on electrification in 1967 (alternately to Manchester/Liverpool).
It was scrapped because they couldn't fill the trains north of Wolverhampton and wanted to use the trains for higher frequency out of Euston.
It also gave birth to XC as an operation with shorter trains and on different routes south of Birmingham, using trains diverted from the Marches run.
Today's grumbles about Birmingham-Manchester are really about journey time rather than capacity.
tbtc
Veteran Member
I'd say that capacity was terrible, considering the size of the two conurbations - a half hourly service isn't *terrible* though.
HS2 should sort this out, of course
Assuming your journey is Birmingham - Manchester, and not:
Birmingham - Stockport
Wolverhampton - Stoke
Stafford - Manchester
etc
tbtc
Veteran Member
True. But Birmingham - Manchester is a significantly bigger market than Wolverhampton to Stoke or Stafford to Manchester.
As a regular traveller between Manchester and Birmingham, both peak and off peak, yes, it needs a hell of a lot more capacity!
The voyagers are packed solid throughout most of the day, with people standing for the entire journey not an uncommon sight. The 30 minute frequency is just right, to be fair, the journey time isn't *that* bad, they just need extra carriages. Then again, so does the rest of the country!
Birmingham - Manchester should have transferred to the West Coast along with the Birmingham - Scotland services, and be run as extensions to the Euston - Brum/Wolves services. Even if it was one an hour, that would still be more capacity than the current 2ph.
Admittedly an 11 car pendilino would be overkill, it'd be a much better situation than 4 car voyagers. Given that the M6 is so busy between the Midlands and North West, there is potential over time to start filling a pendo if the journey was more pleasant.
The voyagers are packed solid throughout most of the day, with people standing for the entire journey not an uncommon sight. The 30 minute frequency is just right, to be fair, the journey time isn't *that* bad, they just need extra carriages. Then again, so does the rest of the country!
Birmingham - Manchester should have transferred to the West Coast along with the Birmingham - Scotland services, and be run as extensions to the Euston - Brum/Wolves services. Even if it was one an hour, that would still be more capacity than the current 2ph.
Admittedly an 11 car pendilino would be overkill, it'd be a much better situation than 4 car voyagers. Given that the M6 is so busy between the Midlands and North West, there is potential over time to start filling a pendo if the journey was more pleasant.
phil8715
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The posts for the overheads are going up pretty quick at Chat Moss.
MidnightFlyer
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I passed it today, not many before Astley (between Eccles and N-l-W), but most masts were in place between there and there pre-existing OHLE just west of Newton.
Obviously, but if you add up all the on/offs at Wolves, Stafford, Stoke, Macc & Stockport it's a pretty fair proportion of the total. A capacity issue which needs addressing long before HS2 reaches Manchester!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's rare in my experience to see a Mcr-Bhm Voyager that isn't well-filled. A 6/7 car would be about right. Lot easier with loco-hauled!
But does it not irk you to stop at the likes of Alsager for a Euston - Crewe journey? And I can't even do Crewe - Stoke on a 350 without my bottom complaining! Siemens have a THING for really uncomfortable seats - I'm thinking 185 here!
MidnightFlyer
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The seats are a matter of taste, personally I like the ones used on Desiros. Further, if it is significantly cheaper to use one service compared to another (like LM / VT between Crewe and Euston), you'll find that no matter where it stops at people will use it because it is either all they can afford or they have things they would rather spend their money saved on, and time isn't an issue. (Dare I say I prefer 350s to 390s?!)
WatcherZero
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The manufacturers all offer a range of seats from budget to luxury, its the TOCS that choose which to go with in regards padding and cost.
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