Elaborate fair evasion

IanD said:

This is fare avoidance. Just like tax avoidance it is perfectly legal. But, unlike tax avoidance, people will applaud your ingenuity rather than condemn you for not paying your fair share (a la Jimmy Carr et al).

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Surely if they were designed only to be used by families the railcard wouldn't be called the Families and Friends railcard?

Tracky said:

I travelled from Sheringham to Norwich last Saturday night and nearly laughed out loud when the conductor asked the date of birth of the person behind who was trying to buy a child ticket. 1994 said the child, adult fare said the conductor.

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Reminds me of a 'child' who produced his child-rate ticket between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, and tried to convince the guard he was 15. One slight problem - he was also drinking a can of lager. Cue a mk2 coach full of passengers trying not to laugh when he got chinged for the adult fare.

Who says he wasn't a child simply drinking under age?!!

jonmorris0844 said:

Who says he wasn't a child simply drinking under age?!!

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They are fun. One gives them the option of paying an adult fare, or handing over all the booze...

Flamingo said:

They are fun. One gives them the option of paying an adult fare, or handing over all the booze...

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Or maybe giving them the choice of being reported to the 'old bill' for fare evasion or under age drinking.

I'd go with the underage drinking, as the police would do sod all. And anyway, if you were 15 then you clearly couldn't be done for using a child ticket simply because you might be trying to pretend you're over 18!

Back in the day when most suburban underground stations didn't have barriers, a friend, who lived in Hounslow, used to grab batches of discarded tickets lying around the booth when no-one was there.

He then "used" the tickets to travel, simply passing them off as valid tickets to hand to the ticket booth attendant - particularly effective at very busy times. If the attendant noticed, he simply legged it.

A real old one.
A known fare dodging tractor basher back in the days of steam heat 37s in Anglia, was spotted boarding at Liverpool St by a Goldie who knew him.
The Goldie checked the train on departure and couldn't find him.
The second man on the 37 paid a visit to the back cab and spotted him hanging on in the gangway connection of first coach and he was duly knobbled at Bishops Stortford.
I wouldn't want to try that one!

Not fair evasion but at the end of august myself (19) and younger brother (14) travelled from Carlisle to Ravenglass, we bought our tickets at Carlisle a 16-25 railcard return for myself and a child return for my brother. On both the outward and return trip our tickets were checked by the Northern conductor and there was no problem whatsoever.

A few days later I go home to see my family and one day myself and my brother decide to go to the East Lancs Railway. This involved a train to manchester, metrolink to Bury and then a day gricing on the ELR. We get on at an unstaffed station and the conductor, again on Northern asks for our tickets. I ask for a railcard return, show him my railcard, all well and good.

I then ask for a return for my 14 year old brother, the conductor aks "Does he have an igo card". "Pardon" I say. Since I left home, GMPTE introduced a scheme called an igo card, children need this to obtain a child fare on buses, trains and metrolink within GMPTE, as my brother didn't have one I paid a full adult fare for him.

I understand rules are rules and have no problem paying for tickets but what if you were a tourist from outside the north west and had young children with you on a day out and where caught unaware by a scheme like this. Also how come two different Northern conductors on one route were happy he was a child, whilst elsewhere on the same he's an adult.

Also what if a child was travelling from say Kirkby (Merseyside) to Sheffield via Manchester Picadilly, would they need an igo card in the GMPTE section or would they have to accept the person was a child at the station of origin?

Rant over

A few years ago I was taking a late night train from Purley to get home, I lived in another London suburb at the time. At Purley there were no working ticket machines, no open ticket office. This predated the arrival of ticket barriers.

There was one permit to travel machine that took only coins, and I had only about 30p in coins on me. Anyhow I get my permit to prove where I got on and got a train home. Were there any ticket dudes on the train? Nope. Or anyone at my home station? Nope, nor were there any machines there that were accepting notes!

So I got home for 30p, I tried to pay a fare but it wasn't possible. Oh well....

Suppose I live in Manchester (which I do) and I don't want to pay the exorbitant fare to Cardiff. So I go to the station and ask for a ticket to Whitchurch. Chances are I'll be sold one to Whitchurch in Shropshire. So I get on the Cardiff train, if it's questioned I explain that I'm going to Whitchurch in Cardiff so I asked for a ticket to Whitchurch and this is the one they sold me - how am I to know there are other Whitchurches??

Would it work? Would the ticket offices have the nous to ask exactly which Whitchurch? And could I try it with Bradford/Bradford-on-Avon or would that be pushing it??

neilmc said:

Suppose I live in Manchester (which I do) and I don't want to pay the exorbitant fare to Cardiff. So I go to the station and ask for a ticket to Whitchurch. Chances are I'll be sold one to Whitchurch in Shropshire. So I get on the Cardiff train, if it's questioned I explain that I'm going to Whitchurch in Cardiff so I asked for a ticket to Whitchurch and this is the one they sold me - how am I to know there are other Whitchurches??

Would it work? Would the ticket offices have the nous to ask exactly which Whitchurch? And could I try it with Bradford/Bradford-on-Avon or would that be pushing it??

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This has happened to me at least once. I asked for a ticket to Hartford, but was issues one to a station in Hertford. Of course, I knew this was wrong, so immediately had it corrected, but it's certainly plausible it could happen. I believe the same thing may be true of Newport? It's certainly true of the two Gillinghams (even if they are pronounced differently)

I have heard of someone using a Glasgow - Alexandra Parade station before to travel down to London, and they got away with it!

Is it fare evasion if you board a buy on board train with all intent to buy a ticket but then get off before the ticket inspector gets to you?

Trainfan344 said:

Is it fare evasion if you board a buy on board train with all intent to buy a ticket but then get off before the ticket inspector gets to you?

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I had that happen yesterday. Got on the train at Cuddington, ticket inspector would make it half way down the train, before going back again to operate the doors for the next station. This repeated all journey and he never got to me.

As it happened, I was travelling to Altrincham, so I bought my ticket on arrival, since there's a ticket office there. Not sure what I'd have done if I was getting off at another unmanned station along the route though.

Trainfan344 said:

Is it fare evasion if you board a buy on board train with all intent to buy a ticket but then get off before the ticket inspector gets to you?

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Did you have any opportunity to buy a ticket? Were there working facilities at the station you boarded the train? did you position yourself at the opposite end of the train from the guard in the hope that you would leave before he got to you (ie you would pay but only if challenged)? And were there working facilities at the station you left the train?
If the answer to any of the above is yes and you did not pay for your journey then it is technically fare evasion.
If there were no facilities at either station and you did not try and distance yourself from the guard/TI. They just didnt walk through or were held up with another passenger then it's not evasion, you were just lucky, have a nice day

Ok, Yes there was a booking office, but had i used this, i would have missed my train.

Trainfan344 said:

Ok, Yes there was a booking office, but had i used this, i would have missed my train.

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In that case, it's fare evasion, plain and simple. Not leaving enough time to buy a ticket is not a valid excuse...
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Ok, I should clarify (the perils of tablet devices and lazy posting)

You're not always obliged to buy before you travel (indeed, Grand Central make a point about this), but many TOCs do require you to. Who was the TOC in question?

Certainly, some TOCs run a penalty fares system, and others only offer full-price opens for sale on-board.

AndyLandy said:

In that case, it's fare evasion, plain and simple. Not leaving enough time to buy a ticket is not a valid excuse...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ok, I should clarify (the perils of tablet devices and lazy posting)

You're not always obliged to buy before you travel (indeed, Grand Central make a point about this), but many TOCs do require you to. Who was the TOC in question?

Certainly, some TOCs run a penalty fares system, and others only offer full-price opens for sale on-board.

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Greater Anglia, as far as i'm aware, they offer full price opens for sale on board, have done that on many occasions.

According to this:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/le/details.html

Greater Anglia operate a penalty fares system, so you may have been in breach of that. I'll defer to the experts at this point.

Trainfan344 said:

Greater Anglia, as far as i'm aware, they offer full price opens for sale on board, have done that on many occasions.

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All guards on all TOCs will do the same, as the Anytime ticket (which is normally the most expensive as is required to be sold) is the correct ticket to offer (without discounts) when there was an opportunity to buy before travel. If you're travelling from a station on TOC that operates a PF scheme from that station and were found by an RPI you would be liable for a PF (assuming that there were ticket issuing facilities which you've said there are).

I suggest that so far you've been lucky and if the ticketing faculties are in operation that you buy a ticket before travel otherwise you'll be liable to receive a PF.

jrail1992 said:

Not fair evasion but at the end of august myself (19) and younger brother (14) travelled from Carlisle to Ravenglass, we bought our tickets at Carlisle a 16-25 railcard return for myself and a child return for my brother. On both the outward and return trip our tickets were checked by the Northern conductor and there was no problem whatsoever.

A few days later I go home to see my family and one day myself and my brother decide to go to the East Lancs Railway. This involved a train to manchester, metrolink to Bury and then a day gricing on the ELR. We get on at an unstaffed station and the conductor, again on Northern asks for our tickets. I ask for a railcard return, show him my railcard, all well and good.

I then ask for a return for my 14 year old brother, the conductor aks "Does he have an igo card". "Pardon" I say. Since I left home, GMPTE introduced a scheme called an igo card, children need this to obtain a child fare on buses, trains and metrolink within GMPTE, as my brother didn't have one I paid a full adult fare for him.

I understand rules are rules and have no problem paying for tickets but what if you were a tourist from outside the north west and had young children with you on a day out and where caught unaware by a scheme like this. Also how come two different Northern conductors on one route were happy he was a child, whilst elsewhere on the same he's an adult.

Also what if a child was travelling from say Kirkby (Merseyside) to Sheffield via Manchester Picadilly, would they need an igo card in the GMPTE section or would they have to accept the person was a child at the station of origin?

Rant over

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Just for reference, you don't need an igo card for child fare on trains (however you do from age 11 (iirc) on trams and buses), although proof of age may be requested if there's doubt he's under 16.

jrail1992 said:

I then ask for a return for my 14 year old brother, the conductor aks "Does he have an igo card". "Pardon" I say. Since I left home, GMPTE introduced a scheme called an igo card, children need this to obtain a child fare on buses, trains and metrolink within GMPTE, as my brother didn't have one I paid a full adult fare for him.

I understand rules are rules and have no problem paying for tickets but what if you were a tourist from outside the north west and had young children with you on a day out and where caught unaware by a scheme like this. Also how come two different Northern conductors on one route were happy he was a child, whilst elsewhere on the same he's an adult.

Also what if a child was travelling from say Kirkby (Merseyside) to Sheffield via Manchester Picadilly, would they need an igo card in the GMPTE section or would they have to accept the person was a child at the station of origin?

Rant over

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May I urge you to post this experience in this thread on fares tickets and routeing. I personally believe you have cause for complaint, if this is recent.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Trainfan344 said:

Ok, Yes there was a booking office, but had i used this, i would have missed my train.

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This is rarely a valid reason to avade the fare. How long was the queue?

34D said:

May I urge you to post this experience in this thread on fares tickets and routeing. I personally believe you have cause for complaint, if this is recent.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is rarely a valid reason to avade the fare. How long was the queue?

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No idea, but decided that it would be smarter this weekend for my trip to dereham to buy my ticket the day before, just when i was young, parents always brought on the train.

Trainfan344 said:

No idea, but decided that it would be smarter this weekend for my trip to dereham to buy my ticket the day before, just when i was young, parents always brought on the train.

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In brief:
-ticket office open OR working TVM = buy before travel or risk prosecution

-ticket office closed/noone there/TVM not working/not accepting your form of valid payment = take a picture, and are entitled to the full range on board

There have been many cases where someone has been prosecuted for walking past an open ticket office (either at start or end of journey).

I'm not sure whether this counts as fare evasion, but it still happened. Sometimes, weekly borders such as myself travelled home from school by train. They naturally billed our parents for the tickets. I only found out in my last term that they always charged the equivalent of a FOR, while sending warrants for a SVR. When people checked, they apologised (since nobody had the warrant, they could not prove it was not filled in wrongly) and reduced the charge for that week . . . then did exactly the same thing again next week. :roll:

I took to retaining tickets to prove it, and the Council (who paid all my fees at the time) insisted on keeping the tickets to prove it - which was awkward enough in itself, since I sometimes had to put them through a hole punch to prove that I had used them (they would not accept receipts, the ticket had to be used). The school must have made thousands of pounds a year out of this, yet nobody ever pursued it beyond reclaiming their money. AIUI, this would be embezzlement.

neilmc said:

Our kids were amongst a group of sixteen church teenagers (Under 16s) booked to go from Manchester to Eastbourne for a weekend. Long and expensive journey by train!

However, we happened to have four young adult youth leaders going, so they each bought a Family Railcard, with a parent designated as second-named holder on each card. Thus all the "children" travelled for £1 each (this was several years ago) with the young adult leaders getting a discount as well.

After the weekend, four families then effectively had a free railcard for the rest of the year.

Elaborate? Up to a point. Evasion? Probably, I'm sure the railcard was not meant to be used in this way. Legal and honest? Perfectly! Literally saved hundreds of pounds.

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Oddly enough First Manchester Buses have a family day ticket which is for two adults and two children, quite often when couples are boarding the driver will offer them one of those tickets as it works out cheaper than two adult day tickets. Despite my opinions on that company they do have some friendly drivers who will offer the better choice of ticket, like issuing a "night-saver" (valid until 3am) rather than a day ticket which costs a bit more (Night tickets can be issued after 5pm, day tickets are issued at any time). I do wonder how much the company makes selling day tickets after 6pm to then sell a single night ticket after midnight to the same passenger?

I digress...

Back in my plane spotting days I used to travel from Salford Crescent to Manchester Airport every weekend, early on a Sunday morning the office would be closed, if the guard didn't come through on the outbound trip nor the return we got a free trip (I don't think they had a booking office at the airport station back then).

I'm not sure what this one can be classed as but it was definitely inadvertent. A few years ago back when I was still air crew I was making my way home from Crawley, I'd been to the pub and was heading back to meet some friends at my local so I decided to take the train as it was quicker than the bus. The ticket office was closed but they had two ticket machines, I go up to one and select "Three Bridges" and put in what I thought was a ten pence piece, it dropped out so I tried again only for it to be rejected once more, I gave it a rub (why do we do that with coins?) and tried again - success!

The only thing was, my coin was returned yet again but along with a printed ticket and change. Now believe me the fare was certainly not less than 30 pence so I looked at my coin and sure enough I'd put in a Barbados 25 cent coin (which is minted exactly like a 10p coin) but for some reason that machine didn't just reject the coin it also thought it was a pound coin and thus thought I'd put in 3 £1 coins, hence the change.

This was not the first time I'd got one of them 25c coins mixed up, I did it at Gatwick after a flight but the machine rejected it straight away so either there was something wrong with that machine at Crawley or the machines at Gatwick are more wisened up on the differences between British & Foreign currency.

As an aside, when I've been working in retail I've had many people passing me overseas coins when paying, though the fake one pound coins are a pain as bar staff and bus drivers seem to not notice them (which in a way offers an avenue of palming off dodgy coins when one has been the recipient of such coins - usually in a packed bar)

Phil

Perhaps you should try asking for a return from Glasgow Central to Hampden Park, just to see what happens.

Or indeed Glasgow Central to Queens Park or Charing Cross, or from Edinburgh to Berwick

duncanp said:

Perhaps you should try asking for a return from Glasgow Central to Hampden Park, just to see what happens.

Or indeed Glasgow Central to Queens Park or Charing Cross, or from Edinburgh to Berwick

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Or Elephant & Castle to Loughborough
Or Southport to Waterloo